World Religions - Atheism Discussion Thread

[strider]

In my mind, organized religion is and has always been of man, by man and for man and seldom has any real bearing on any spiritual reality.  It can and has both helped and badly hurt the masses throughout time. 

Human nature being what it is, we as a people seem to need something to believe in that is greater than ourselves. As long as that is true, there will be many who step up and do their best to take advantage of those who believe and do so for selfish reasons.  That ends up with more religions and more churches as the struggle for power over others continues.

As we have become a more educated as a society,  the scary thing is that that need hasn't changed.  Few really question the teachings of their chosen organized religion.  One would think that our high tech society would breed more atheists, but it really hasn't.   We need that belief in something, in something hopefully good, so badly that it transcends even scientific realities.

Ock, while I certainly applaud your church's work in other countries, can you tell me the reason almost all major churches spend thousands helping those in other countries but often hinder the needy in their own back yards?  Why the churches who seem to do the most for the needy here in our country often have to beg for pennies when millions are being spent on new, fancy buildings? Why those of us who do try to help those in need around us are called names and often even the most religious among us try to run us out of town on that proverbial rail?

And for the record, I am not an atheist.  I do consider myself an agnostic though.  I suspect many who call themselves atheists are in fact agnostic.  I can't look at the world around us, both the good and the bad and not see something greater than us at work here.  Even if it is just Mother Nature being a hormonal bitch.

[sandyshoes]

I'm so glad somebody brought up this topic, because I have a burning question.  To my understanding, Muslims worship God (they just don't call him "God", he is another name to them).  Atheists do not believe in God.  Atheists tend to lash out at anyone who does, and are especially vicious against Christians.  I have yet to see  atheists spew their views at Muslims for believing in God.  Whyizzat?  Secondly, Jenio: Jesus said, after he forgave the harlot, to GO, AND SIN NO MORE.  That is the key.  If we ask forgiveness for something that we know is a sin, then we are forgiven, and we are to stop doing it.  We are not to wave it around like a flag and say look at me, I want my rights to do this.  Thanks for allowing me to be candid here, and no malice is intended.   

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, while I certainly applaud your church's work in other countries, can you tell me the reason almost all major churches spend thousands helping those in other countries but often hinder the needy in their own back yards?  Why the churches who seem to do the most for the needy here in our country often have to beg for pennies when millions are being spent on new, fancy buildings? Why those of us who do try to help those in need around us are called names and often even the most religious among us try to run us out of town on that proverbial rail?

It would be difficult for me to get into the the heads of those who spend time, money and effort in places like Panama but refuse to help those who are hurting or broken here at home. While my church does spend virtually everything it takes in to deliver pure water, shelter and hope, for those who cannot provide it themselves in Latin America, there are many who spend their time and effort on the streets. In Las Vegas, 'Hooker's for Jesus,' works on the mean streets giving shelter, education, personal skills and purpose to sex workers seeking to break out of a life that often involves some form of bondage. In San Francisco, a group of nun's have shed their habits and are working to rescue addicted transgendered prostitutes. Locally most of the missions downtown are financed by our local churches.

The fancy building's are another subject, in Ecuador for example there is the cathedral of gold, while starving children lay on the nearby sidewalks. I believe if Jesus were here today he's kick the building down. Honestly, I don't get it either, perhaps it's a need some have to recreate 'heaven on earth,' is the motivation for building's like that, but it's not my job to judge them.

I think in choosing a church people should look beyond their statement of faith and see what they do in the trenches. I once got dragged into a Pentecostal faith healing service, and I came away from it sick at my stomach. Jesus healed people but no where do I find him throwing crutches through the air and trashing wheel chairs. Likewise churches can get detoured into judgmental actions around what people wear, what they eat and drink, how they talk and myriad other things as diverse as humanity itself.

Going into a foreign mission field, will quickly 'cure' the notion's that swirl around needless judging. When beer is the only thing safe to drink, PEOPLE DRINK BEER! Want a quick wake-up call on our culture? In Papua New Guinea, certain native children are nude, culture dictates that they be allowed to urinate or defecate at will, and without rebuke, (even in our house or on your sofa)  lest one insult the family. Weird? No, it's just a people who don't live in our tidy little world. Much if not most of what we call religion today goes beyond a set of beliefs and directly into cultural perceptions. Walking down a trail with a Colombian indian he inquired why I blew my nose into a tissue... "Why do you want to keep it?" Ya gotta know there was no 'Christian' answer for that question.

And for the record, I am not an atheist.  I do consider myself an agnostic though.  I suspect many who call themselves atheists are in fact agnostic.  I can't look at the world around us, both the good and the bad and not see something greater than us at work here.  Even if it is just Mother Nature being a hormonal bitch.

The English term "agnostic" is derived from the Greek "agnostos," which means, " to not know. ...  I believe this is the ultimate 'safe' position, at least in the eye's of mankind. A believer in Christ or any other religious figure must go beyond this  and commit to take a stand, I stand with Jesus. Taking such a stand should not however, mean a uncomfortable or confrontational lifestyle as one relates to his/her fellow citizens.

OCKLAWAHA

[sandyshoes]

Stephen; I'm speaking of atheists as a group.  What I notice is that I don't see atheists targeting Muslims (as opposed to your basic, white-shoes and white-belt wearing, cake-toting Christians) because they believe in God and atheists aren't trying to tell Muslims any different.  It's an interesting contrast, is all I'm saying.   

[sandyshoes]

Let me try to ask from another perspective.  If you are reading this and you happen to be a Muslim, do atheists bother you or anger you?  Should everyone (Christian, Jew, Muslim - it's alphabetical) who believes in God be upset that atheists are so prevalent and trying to change our beliefs because they don't have any?  I'm asking honest questions because there isn't anyplace else where I can be this frank.  Yes, I am ignorant on this subject, that's why I'm trying to learn more about why I feel what I feel.  Preferably without encountering any ugliness.     

[Ocklawaha]

Stephen; I'm speaking of atheists as a group.  What I notice is that I don't see atheists targeting Muslims (as opposed to your basic, white-shoes and white-belt wearing, cake-toting Christians) because they believe in God and atheists aren't trying to tell Muslims any different.  It's an interesting contrast, is all I'm saying.   

"The clearest examples of true theocracies are found in Muslim nations. In such countries, we can learn a great deal about Islam by studying Sharia law and its enforcement...

...Women are not afforded the same worth as men. Spousal rape and battery are permissible, and unmarried female victims of rape are to be killed. Apostasy is punishable by death.

SOURCE: ATHEIST REVOLUTION - http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/02/what-sharia-law-teaches-us-about-islam.html

It would seem from this that boldly speaking against Islam could be hazardous to ones health. It also seems that when a single religion dominates society, mankind brings out knives. Likewise when an Atheist society rules, the exact same thing happens. Could it be that man is the culprit more then any system of belief's or philosophical ideals?

OCKLAWAHA

[funwithteeth]

To avoid ugliness, you might start by not making the unfounded assumption that atheists aren't "spewing"â€"your word, not mineâ€"anything at Muslims. Furthermore, if you want to avoid ugliness, don't make any bizarre claims about atheists going around and "trying to change"â€"your phrase, not mineâ€"people's beliefs because "they don't have any."

Basically, sandyshoes, whether or not you realize it, you're trying to pick a fight you supposedly don't want.

[sandyshoes]

What I am trying to get is a better understanding.  As Ocklawaha mentioned, (and thank you), there is a death threat against anyone who would speak against Islam.  Are atheists, then, speaking against Islam in their refusal to acknowledge the existence of God, in whom they (atheists) do not believe? 

[Ocklawaha]

Shame on you Stephen, you've left out the 33 crore (330 million) demigods of the Hindu faith. While they do believe in ONE god, they believe the 33 core act as administrators.

OCKLAWAHA

[Adam W]

Let me try to ask from another perspective.  If you are reading this and you happen to be a Muslim, do atheists bother you or anger you?  Should everyone (Christian, Jew, Muslim - it's alphabetical) who believes in God be upset that atheists are so prevalent and trying to change our beliefs because they don't have any?  I'm asking honest questions because there isn't anyplace else where I can be this frank.  Yes, I am ignorant on this subject, that's why I'm trying to learn more about why I feel what I feel.  Preferably without encountering any ugliness.   

How many Muslims do you know, Sandyshoes?

In my experience, Christians tend to be the ones who go out proselytizing. The only Muslims I've seen do it are the group of very conservative ones who set up a booth every once in awhile near the local train station and try to get people to consider Islam. The only people I've ever had come up to me and try to talk to me about my religion or get me to convert are Christians, Jehova's Witnesses and Scientologists.

I don't care what anyone believes. And if a Muslim, Christian, Jew or whatever felt it necessary to share his/her beliefs with me, I'd say "no thanks." If he/she got persistent, "no thanks" would turn into "fuck off."

[letterstosam@yahoo.com]

What if we stopped trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong and just focused helping each other along our respective journeys?  I'm pretty sure this is what Jesus was talking about.  In his own way, I think Christopher Hitchens is trying to do the same thing.  Really, though, Jesus is better at it.  So was Ghandi, MLK, Mother Theresa. 

I wish I saw more people getting amped up to help each other out and less people trying to sound like they're particular group is more enlightened than other groups. 

[Timkin]

  I wish I saw more people getting amped up to help each other out and less people trying to sound like they're particular group is more enlightened than other groups. 

^ B  I  N  G   O !!!!!!  +1million !

[Ocklawaha]

What if we stopped trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong and just focused helping each other along our respective journeys?  I'm pretty sure this is what Jesus was talking about.  In his own way, I think Christopher Hitchens is trying to do the same thing.  Really, though, Jesus is better at it.  So was Ghandi, MLK, Mother Theresa. 

I wish I saw more people getting amped up to help each other out and less people trying to sound like they're particular group is more enlightened than other groups.

By now, no doubt, Christopher Hitchens knows if he was right or not. Plato believed in an afterlife and once said that perhaps death is the greatest gift bestowed on us by the gods.

Leaning only on mankind's finite understanding of the universe seems foolish to me, when science can't even prove how we got here. For some of you that's all you need, but as a historian, there is a thread of spirituality that runs through mankind from the beginning. Why? Why would a evolving being come down out of the trees and wake up one day and say, 'hey, you know what? There is this being called God and he left us with a set of rules to follow... Did this happen to Neanderthal? Cro-Magnon? Neandertalensis? Homo sapiens?  Homo erectus?  Homo habilis? Australopithecus? or perhaps Ardipithicus radius, who according to science shared 98% of our genes.

To me it all comes back to Plato's Socrates when he asked if anyone believes in human affairs but not in humans, in equine affairs but not in horses, in flute music but not in flute players, and then asks if, similarly, any man believes in divine activities but not in divinities?

I see much less risk in believing as opposed to not believing, In the trial of Socrates, he testified that, "there is good hope that death is a blessing, for it is one of two things:  either the dead are nothing and have no perception of anything, or it is, as we are told, a change and a relocating for the soul from here to another place.  If it is complete lack of perception, like a dreamless sleep, then death would be a great advantage.  If death is like this I say it is an advantage, for all eternity would then seem to be no more than a single night  A night of dreamless sleep is great!"  Socrates considers the other option:  “If, on the other hand, death is a change from here to another place, and what we are told is true and all who have died are there, what greater blessing could there be, gentleman of the jury?  … what would one of you give to keep company with Orpheus and Musaeus, Hesiod and Homer?  I am willing to die many times if that is true.”

The Tibetan account of the first bardo after death shows striking parallels with the near-death experiences of people who have died, experienced themselves floating out of their bodies, having what appears to be real afterlife events, and then being revived.

IMAGINE!

OCKLAWAHA

[If_I_Loved_you]

Finding Mecca? http://www.theatlanticcities.com/technology/2012/06/finding-mecca-high-tech-way-light-carpet/2350/

[ben says]

What if we stopped trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong and just focused helping each other along our respective journeys?  I'm pretty sure this is what Jesus was talking about.  In his own way, I think Christopher Hitchens is trying to do the same thing.  Really, though, Jesus is better at it.  So was Ghandi, MLK, Mother Theresa. 

I wish I saw more people getting amped up to help each other out and less people trying to sound like they're particular group is more enlightened than other groups.

By now, no doubt, Christopher Hitchens knows if he was right or not. Plato believed in an afterlife and once said that perhaps death is the greatest gift bestowed on us by the gods.

Leaning only on mankind's finite understanding of the universe seems foolish to me, when science can't even prove how we got here. For some of you that's all you need, but as a historian, there is a thread of spirituality that runs through mankind from the beginning. Why? Why would a evolving being come down out of the trees and wake up one day and say, 'hey, you know what? There is this being called God and he left us with a set of rules to follow... Did this happen to Neanderthal? Cro-Magnon? Neandertalensis? Homo sapiens?  Homo erectus?  Homo habilis? Australopithecus? or perhaps Ardipithicus radius, who according to science shared 98% of our genes.

To me it all comes back to Plato's Socrates when he asked if anyone believes in human affairs but not in humans, in equine affairs but not in horses, in flute music but not in flute players, and then asks if, similarly, any man believes in divine activities but not in divinities?

I see much less risk in believing as opposed to not believing, In the trial of Socrates, he testified that, "there is good hope that death is a blessing, for it is one of two things:  either the dead are nothing and have no perception of anything, or it is, as we are told, a change and a relocating for the soul from here to another place.  If it is complete lack of perception, like a dreamless sleep, then death would be a great advantage.  If death is like this I say it is an advantage, for all eternity would then seem to be no more than a single night  A night of dreamless sleep is great!"  Socrates considers the other option:  “If, on the other hand, death is a change from here to another place, and what we are told is true and all who have died are there, what greater blessing could there be, gentleman of the jury?  … what would one of you give to keep company with Orpheus and Musaeus, Hesiod and Homer?  I am willing to die many times if that is true.”

The Tibetan account of the first bardo after death shows striking parallels with the near-death experiences of people who have died, experienced themselves floating out of their bodies, having what appears to be real afterlife events, and then being revived.

IMAGINE!

OCKLAWAHA

So how/why did you pick Christianity? 99.99% sure because you were born into it.