World Religions - Atheism Discussion Thread

[Ocklawaha]

I could send great sums to support the GOP, so that I could have in power guys to assist me in keeping more of my money, guys who want to help me and the other the rich be richer..... guys who are on the side of the god who has been helping the rich for a long time.  The rich and their god are on the same side.  And they have the wonderful evangelicals along too.  It makes for a good team.

Really? I'm a evangelical Christian and a Democrat, perhaps I worship a different God? Anyone can find fakes and flimflam artists hiding in the churches or even occasionally disguised as church leaders. Unless something or someone totally human mistreated you at the mission when you needed help or food. It seems a rather narrow, condescending attitude to attack all Christian people, who as a whole, want to help.

OCKLAWAHA

[ben says]

I could send great sums to support the GOP, so that I could have in power guys to assist me in keeping more of my money, guys who want to help me and the other the rich be richer..... guys who are on the side of the god who has been helping the rich for a long time.  The rich and their god are on the same side.  And they have the wonderful evangelicals along too.  It makes for a good team.

Really? I'm a evangelical Christian and a Democrat, perhaps I worship a different God? Anyone can find fakes and flimflam artists hiding in the churches or even occasionally disguised as church leaders. Unless something or someone totally human mistreated you at the mission when you needed help or food. It seems a rather narrow, condescending attitude to attack all Christian people, who as a whole, want to help.

OCKLAWAHA

Sheesh...

Where to begin, where to begin. (Not even sure how this thread turned into this, but oh well.)

I don't think it's a matter of finding flakes and flimflam artists 'disguised' as church leaders. I think the majority of church leaders are flakes. If those leaders are so into helping people, quick the white frock coat shit and go out and help people. Stop selling a bunch of false hope garbage to your followers (who pay tithes/dues/money to the hierarchy) and 'lead' them to the soup kitchen/job expo/the streets to actually help you. If there is a bigger waste of human time, energy, money, and resources than the church/clergy/leaders, can someone please tell me? And yes, the rich and god have always been on the same side. The rich sell god to the poor to make them feel that the hand they've been dealt isn't so bad after all.

[jenio]

"Really? I'm a evangelical Christian and a Democrat, perhaps I worship a different God? Anyone can find fakes and flimflam artists hiding in the churches or even occasionally disguised as church leaders. Unless something or someone totally human mistreated you at the mission when you needed help or food. It seems a rather narrow, condescending attitude to attack all Christian people, who as a whole, want to help. "  Posted by Ocklawaha

Like the very kind Evangelical Christians that told my 14 year old daughter that her mother was going to hell because she was not a Christian? 

As Ghandi states, "I like your christ, just not your christians."

I concur.

Kimberly Daniels gets her "freedom of religion" so that she doesn't have to deal with the homosexual community but wasn't it your Jesus that went out to the lepers, the whores, the unclean? Didn't he go out to the undesirables to share with them the love that was god's?  What so ever you do to the least of these you do unto me?  Hmmm, you guys really don't take very good care of  your christ if this is the standard that you hold to and then treat those that are different as Less.

I have nothing against the 3 Christians that I believe are truly following the teachings of their book.  As for the rest of the people i see and the way i see them treat others, well enough said.

[Ocklawaha]

author=ben says link=topic=15253.msg283041#msg283041 date=1339263915]
Sheesh...

Where to begin, where to begin. (Not even sure how this thread turned into this, but oh well.)

Oh, I don't know, maybe it was Ron telling the citizenry that he got robbed because the Christians and the GOP have a conspiracy going? That somehow the presence of Christians (and anyone else with a belief in a God, higher power, or pantheon) are preventing the world from experiencing real love. Wow.

I don't think it's a matter of finding flakes and flimflam artists 'disguised' as church leaders. I think the majority of church leaders are flakes.

What evidence do you present to prove that it's a majority?

If those leaders are so into helping people, quick the white frock coat shit and go out and help people.

I worked with a health mission in Colombia (doing construction, buying food, supplies etc), it was operated by a group of churches and a wonderful Doctor from Pasto and his lovely Mexican wife. The doctor and his family, 5 people in total, lived in a tiny apartment without hot water. We saw hundreds of people and charged, um, NOTHING. Why? Because that is what Jesus would have had us to do, call it follow the leader if you want.

Stop selling a bunch of false hope...

Again, you are assuming you already know all of the mysteries of the universe.

...garbage to your followers (who pay tithes/dues/money to the hierarchy) and 'lead' them to the soup kitchen/job expo/the streets to actually help you

.

i don't have any "followers" Ben, and the church I attend doesn't pass around anything to collect any tithes, one simply donates what one feels he/she can donate at the door, no pressure, no questions, and that little basket works two ways. Give what you can, take what you need.

...'lead' them to the soup kitchen/job expo/the streets to actually help...

Perhaps this is what you had in mind? Ever been in a jungle Ben? Most of the men in my tiny church have, it's what we do after all:

Panama FREEway


Guaymi indians in the Comaraca area of Panama


Algarrobo, Panama area.


New Building with a real cement floor.


Building built last year with two of our Christian gringo's out front.


Indian girl with her permanent water filter


More water filters when we learned the water for bathing, toilet runoff and drinking came from the same stream, we plan to put these in villages all over Panama and hopefully Colombia.

If there is a bigger waste of human time, energy, money, and resources than the church/clergy/leaders, can someone please tell me?

Wanna meet me in Panama? Colombia? Brasil? Ron? Jenio? Just say the word and you can come along. Since we all pay our own way, and you would be just visiting, perhaps we could even spring for your airfare. Come along with me and then you can tell ALL OF US what a waste of time it was.

And yes, the rich and god have always been on the same side. The rich sell god to the poor to make them feel that the hand they've been dealt isn't so bad after all.

I certainly won't defend the rich, I know few who qualify by our standards, but YOU Ben, you and I are rich beyond your wildest dreams when you stand in the rain forest and look into the eyes of those who live there. Our guys who go on these various missions mostly live in WGV (St Johns River area) with a few scattered up the river as far as Riverside, all of us have or had regular American jobs, incredibly rich American jobs.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

lol, RexMontana!

Like the very kind Evangelical Christians that told my 14 year old daughter that her mother was going to hell because she was not a Christian? 

As Ghandi states, "I like your Christ, just not your Christians."

I concur.

So do I Jenio, Romans 3:23 in our 'handbook' says, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Churches are hospitals for hypocrites, not museums for saints, its a shame that many of the leaders and followers have failed so miserably to walk the walk, if they had, Ghandi would have been one of us, and he said so.

Kimberly Daniels gets her "freedom of religion" so that she doesn't have to deal with the homosexual community but wasn't it your Jesus that went out to the lepers, the whores, the unclean? Didn't he go out to the undesirables to share with them the love that was god's?  What so ever you do to the least of these you do unto me?  Hmmm, you guys really don't take very good care of  your Christ if this is the standard that you hold to and then treat those that are different as Less.

Exactly, you should be a pastor, I like your message.

I have nothing against the 3 Christians that I believe are truly following the teachings of their book.  As for the rest of the people i see and the way i see them treat others, well enough said.

I don't know Ms. Daniels, but I'd have some suggested reading for her if I did:

Matthew 7:1-2 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

As for your thoughts on going out to "the lepers, the whores, the unclean?" See my previous post and come along if you'd like.

OCKLAWAHA

[Timkin]

I certainly won't defend the rich, I know few who qualify by our standards, but YOU Ben, you and I are rich beyond your wildest dreams when you stand in the rain forest and look into the eyes of those who live there. Our guys who go on these various missions mostly live in WGV (St Johns River area) with a few scattered up the river as far as Riverside, all of us have or had regular American jobs, incredibly rich American jobs.

OCKLAWAHA

With this comment, I completely concur. I think we can gripe and complain about how bad we have it in this country, when the truth of the matter is that we are certainly better off than 80 percent of the rest of the world.

(no retail value)

[ronchamblin]

Ock.  Aware that little in life is as black and white as we would like advises us to avoid carelessly shouting our opinions with confidence.  Because of this, some of us are calmed on the issue of religion, and can proceed with steady contemplations, conveying it to others.  You tend to be reasonable while discussing the potentially volatile subject of religion, and this perhaps because you are not ensconced excessively in certain aspects of it.  This calming approach is appreciated and productive.

The integrity of a system or organization frequently suffers as a consequence of the abusive or exploitative actions of a few within it.  And the good people within attempt salvaging its integrity, while those without, urge criticism of it.

The idea and shape of Christianity reminds me of the idea of communism.  Both have origins, and both have endured various interpretations and experimenting.  Both are ongoing, and while communism has already for the most part faded from the forefront of the former societies within which it existed, Christianity is only feeling a slow and gradual decline in influence.

Was the Soviet system really an experiment with communism, or was it only several decades of a system wherein a few dictatorial individuals held sway over the masses of the Russian peoples?  There were some good attributes in Marx’s idea of communism, but these attributes never reached fruition in the brutal dictatorship in the Soviet Union.  And given the realities of human nature, I doubt if these ideal attributes could ever reach fruition.  The Soviets never engaged Marx’s communism, only its name.

Christianity and communism are similar in that both have been hijacked by some of the rather injurious and destructive attributes of human nature.  The issues with Christianity and communism reminds me of the welfare system in our country, wherein the system has been hijacked and abused by individuals deficient in motive.     

The basic idea of the man called Christ, and the idea of Christianity is to be lauded as being a belief system offering qualities one cannot deny as being a benefit to the psyche of many individuals, and to the stability of some populations.  Many of us who tend to be critical of Christianity in general, sense the conditions similar to those in communism wherein something is phony, there being those within who exploit with great effect, and those who suffer because of it.

Just as there were individuals within the communist system who knew of its potential benefits to the masses, and sought to initiate them according to the ideals of true communism, there are those in the Christian system who wish to proceed with the best intentions, to engage the best qualities of the Christian system to assist all people according the teachings of it.

But alas, in spite of the wonderful and true psychological virtues and teachings in it, something has emerged in the Christian system, something has plagued it all along, something which causes some to reject it; and this, because they have difficulty with the deceptions, the hollowness, and the mythological nature of much of it.  Common sense also teaches virtue, and the best behavior.  The saying, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, predates all of Christianity.

With time, one desires genuine associations in life, expects and seeks sincerity in their dealings, especially with something as important as a philosophy of living, and its important consequences.  Therefore, when they are confronted with the likes of a Jimmy Swaggart, a Joel O’steen, a Pat Robertson, a Jerry Falwell, etc etc …. or most of the other TV evangelists, and even the everyday projections of certain aspects of Christianity; as they observe these individuals, contemplating their words, and knowing their motives, they begin to question the entire system to which these charlatans are attached; the system which hatched these somewhat ridiculous individuals. 

Recognizing the good that your church group accomplishes, and realizing that these programs are quite distant from the deceptions of the popular Christian system as portrayed on television and in some churches, I cannot expend much energy criticizing the shape of your engagement with Christianity. 

I’m sure you can understand the frustration some of us non-Christian persons endure as we see what goes on in the name of Christianity.  It’s much like watching the suffering Soviet masses during the middle decades of the twentieth century as they were exploited and abused by the individuals ensconced in the Soviet power structure.  Just as the communist system was a lie, so it is with a significant part of the Christian system.  Even though there is much good in it, there is much that is not; and there are those who exploit it for their own good at the expense of integrity and truth, and the ultimate good of others.

Communism did not fail in Russia two decades ago.  It never existed in the first place.  The lies, absurdities, and abuses in any system, such as that of the mockery of communism, will eventually see its decline and demise because time relentlessly brings truth.  Any system fundamentally deceptive and unsound at the core will fail with time, and this, only because human nature, as rendered by that segment of humans alert to the realities of nature, seeks ultimate truth in the universe.  So if a system is not buttressed by fundamental truths, if it is not built upon foundations in concert with the laws of the universe; prepare for its fall, as time and thoughtful individuals work relentlessly to expose its fallacies and its weaknesses.

So Ock, please forgive we who occasionally snipe at the ongoing Christian system, as we must do so because we cannot endure as well as some what we perceive to be untruths and hollow actions and words, which we know to be built upon rather questionable origins in the first place.

And accept please my wish for continued progress on your projects down south, as these individuals with whom you work are I’m sure well-meaning and genuine in their work.  I embrace them, and you, as your work is fundamentally good, and far from the act of a Jimmy Swaggart or a Joel Osteen playing deceptively with basic human emotions, as in a game, for their own enhancement of power and wealth. 

Your work down south, along with the church, is a very clear confirmation of the good and productive consequences of one’s beliefs regarding Christianity, and it is to be welcomed and applauded as being sincere.  Thank you for being honest and forthright with us who believe somewhat differently than you.  I suspect that we are for the same purpose and journey, but perhaps for a while in different boats.

How did the robbery drift to this subject?

[officerk]

There are good people in all faiths. Being a Christian does not inherantly make a person a good person. Being a good person make a person a person a good person. Our prisons are plagued with Christians who regardless of their crimes are convinced they are going to heaven. This is a concept I have issue with. If that is correct, I have no issue not sharing that faith in the least, for if Heaven is to be filled with rapist, murders & pedophiles I certainly do not wish to be there... That is my soap box...

another comment I want to make re: something that was said by OCK goes back a bit. OCK made a about Chamblins hiring this individual whom has already robbed him once.. No responsible business owner would ever hire anyone whom had already robbed them once.. Perhaps another business that works closely with the State Prison Re-Entry program could take that chance on this individual but to ask Chamblins to take this risk is quite absurd to me.. those that want to remove themselves from their prior situations and wish to help themsleves do deserve second chances BUT it needs to be done carefully..

[Ocklawaha]

EVERYONE IS WELCOME.

Feel free to comment, question or debate in this new thread, HOWEVER, if anyone steps over the bounds of civility, YOU WILL BE DELETED.

Some would say that "atheism" is not a religion or but it is a belief system, so .... Hmmmmm.  The phrase "World View" is sometimes used.  Or "Philosophy of Life," all of these subjects can be openly discussed with common courtesy.

So join us on this adventure, mind your manners and let's all learn something from our brothers and sisters.

OCKLAWAHA

[officerk]

huh... curious how this got deemed Atheism... belief in things other than the Judeo-Christian ideology does not leave the only other option to be Atheism...

(dig the Country Joe and the Fish quote BTW)

[ronchamblin]

Good point officerk.  Meanwhile, I’ll have to say that this is a welcomed new subject category because it seems that too often a thread not related to religion will, by the pressure of argument or perhaps need, evolve to it.  This continual drift to the subject indicates to me that there is an underlying interest in religion and the churches in northeast Florida. 

So….. thanks for offering the new subject category Ock.  Being an atheist, or a non-believer, I intend to continue honing my ability to be considerate to the views of those who believe there is a god, and that the man Jesus is coming back.

After all, the battle between religion and science, or religion and reason, has been going on with enthusiasm not only since the 18th century Enlightenment, but even back into the Greek and Roman times. 

Perhaps as a result of this new opportunity to discuss religions, gods, deities, heaven, hell, faith, salvation, etc etc., we will see either more Christians, Muslims, and Jews, or perhaps less of them, and more non-believers.  If the latter is accomplished, I’ll have more company. 

May the best man, woman, or god win.       

[KenFSU]

Though I definitely consider myself a Christian, I have an equal dislike for holier than thou Christians and atheists. I don't care what you are, but the second you start forcing your belief system onto me or anyone else, and holding others to standards based on your own personal code of morality, I lose all tolerance for you. Christianity should never be used as a platform for hate or discrimination, nor should atheism be used as a weapon against religion.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who treats the world at large with consideration and respect. I don't care if you're an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, or if you worship the flying spaghetti monster. If you're a decent, compassionate, non-judgemental human being, I think you're awesome. And even as a lifelong Christian, I would happily call ten open-minded atheists or Muslims my friends over a thousand judgmental Christians.

Two of the most beautiful news stories I've seen in the last year:

1) Egyptian Muslims act as Human Shields to protect Christians as they celebrate Coptic Christmas.

"I know it might not be safe," said a Muslim housewife, "yet it's either we live together, or we die together, we are all Egyptians."

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2011/01/egyptian_muslims_act_as_human_shields_for_coptic_christmas_mass.html

2) Egyptian Christians Protect Muslims during Prayer at Tahrir Square:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqXfZTgOCOE

If everyone behaved liked this, the world would be an infinitely better place.

P.S.

[officerk]

I agree. The worst is the Zealot in any religion.  To me religion is a very personal thing.  It is built on faith.  Faith cannot be held in a hand it is held in a heart.  What is most import with a person and thier faith is that they know what they believe and they live it themselves not expect OTHER people to live by their faith. 

I have had too many people knock on my door and tell me that I was going to hell because I would not accept their system of idology.  This was after I politely explained my beliefs because I was asked not becuase I was trying to convert.  Remaining calm and polite I would kindly tell the individual that I had no fear of going someplace that I did not believe existed. 

I find it appalling that there is such a hubbub about prayer in our schools.  I never prayed in school, but we always had a "moment of silence" in the morning.  It was understood that this was for those that wanted to have a morning prayer before school started.  The schools are not FORCING students to pray, that would be wrong.  But the moment is available for those that wished to take advantage of it.  Why is it a problem for there to be a group of students with a common interest of religion to meet on school premises? If the meeting is not a requirement it should not be a problem. 

I am one of the minority.  My religious beliefs are not even in the .01% of the populous. But I find a lot of this political noise to be just rediculous.  It seems to be done just to make noise and that makes no sense at all.  Why does it really matter if the 10 commandments are in front of a court house? Would it be better if we had the Wiccan commandment of "Do as ye will an it harm none?"  I watch the news when the zealots on either side start and I just have to shake my head because it really doen't make sense.  Shouldn't we being making noise about more important things?

[Adam W]

I am an atheist. That does not mean I have a worldview or a set of beliefs. It means I do not have what some others have - a belief in god.

I don't like the perception that, as an atheist, I have some core set of 'beliefs.' I don't necessarily share anything in common with other atheists, except that one thing - which is a lack of something.

And I have no time for 'secular humanists' or humanists or whatever. No problem with the concept of humanism, but rather the idea that you need to create some sort of almost-religion or civic religion to replace actual religion or the religious experience. And I really dislike the way Charles Darwin is being deified these days.

You can keep all that crap. I just want to be left alone.

[ben says]

I am an atheist. That does not mean I have a worldview or a set of beliefs. It means I do not have what some others have - a belief in god.

I don't like the perception that, as an atheist, I have some core set of 'beliefs.' I don't necessarily share anything in common with other atheists, except that one thing - which is a lack of something.

And I have no time for 'secular humanists' or humanists or whatever. No problem with the concept of humanism, but rather the idea that you need to create some sort of almost-religion or civic religion to replace actual religion or the religious experience. And I really dislike the way Charles Darwin is being deified these days.

You can keep all that crap. I just want to be left alone.

Fantastic post. Love it, and of course, I agree.