Skyway Merits Debated

[stjr]

Im glad the skyway is there, and I am glad to see it finally getting the ridership it deserves.

And, what ridership number is the Skyway getting that it so "deserves" (twice next to nothing is still next to nothing by the way)? And, at what cost?  Still waiting.....

Your argument is so intellectually bankrupt that you literally have to make false assertions in order to keep the conversation going.

LOL.  The only thing going bankrupt here are the taxpayers!  In the meantime, name one false assertion I have made about the Skyway.  And, because you don't understand basic accounting, don't bring up depreciation.

[CS Foltz]

stjr..........you make valid points! $kyway is here and I fail to see how the continuing to subsidize works in the best interests of the City/Taxpayer! The proposed BRT is mirroring the $kyway's route and duplicating is not something that any planner would suggest over a long term! The Skyway could be a tourist draw, along with a transit vehicle to move people into and out of the core, but that would require lengthening to the full original planned length..............don't see that happening anytime soon! City is broke....right! Johnny still keeps writing checks that the taxpayer will have to cash at some point in the future.............Metro Park and River Walk come to mind!

[thelakelander]

The charts accompanying the article indicate a sustained downward trend for both the Metromover and Skyway.

These systems aside, there has been a downward trend on most forms of transportation over the last year or two, due to the fall of the economy.  People don't commute as much when they're out of work.

Lake, I am not the one trying to convert a one-time uptick into a major sign of sudden success.  Talk to Stephen and Tufsu.  By the way, where were all the riders before the economy fell?

Economy up or down, proponents have their excuses.  I love it.

I feel like either you keep mixing me up in other people's arguments or you're flat ignoring what I've been saying about this skyway stuff the last couple of years.  My view hasn't changed and after countless debates on this, you should know it as well as I know your's.  For the last time, ridership has been impacted by....

1. Its an incomplete system that does not link major destinations at end points or integrate with adjacent residential neighborhooods.

2. JTA's bus system duplicates the skyway's routes limiting whatever potential the existing system has left.

3. Because of a lack of local government agency coordination, parking garages that were not supposed to be built now exist on nearly every corner.

4. Downtown has declined significantly over the last two decades.

5. There's no regional mass transit system to feed riders into it as originally proposed.

Until you address these issues, it will struggle.  Knowing this, I prefer to focus on implementing steps to get better utilization of the fed's investment.  This should answer your question to me but in reality you all ready know this is my position.  Btw, these same points are addressed in the article you just posted.

[JeffreyS]

I guess all of you here that wish to ignore depreciation do the same when you submit mileage reimbursements to your companies for using your car on company business.  You are happy to drive as many miles in your personal car as your employer demands and settle only for reimbursement of your gas, tires, maintenance, and insurance.  You could care less that your car is worth less after every mile you put on it?  Can I hire you to for a courier service?  Without having to ever pay for running down the value of your vehicles, I will be able to undercut everyone in town!

We are not ignoring it just correctly stating that depreciation represents money already spent.  The fact that it is spread out over years is just on paper.  No matter what you do that money is spent so eliminating the system does not save you the depreciation costs.  You can mitigate those costs if you can sell what you are depreciating.
I am for continuing the skyway although I do think arguments against make some reasonable points.

[thelakelander]

stjr..........you make valid points! $kyway is here and I fail to see how the continuing to subsidize works in the best interests of the City/Taxpayer! The proposed BRT is mirroring the $kyway's route and duplicating is not something that any planner would suggest over a long term! The Skyway could be a tourist draw, along with a transit vehicle to move people into and out of the core, but that would require lengthening to the full original planned length..............don't see that happening anytime soon! City is broke....right! Johnny still keeps writing checks that the taxpayer will have to cash at some point in the future.............Metro Park and River Walk come to mind!

Everything does not have to revolve around extending the line before getting better utilization out it.  Here are a few things that can be done with what's in place to attract more riders and to produce more revenue.

1. End all bus route/stop duplication.  Those heading downtown should be forced to transfer to the skyway or PCTs.  Those who aren't will get to their destination faster by not making a ton of stops in DT.

2. Run a reliable service.  Fix the turnstiles, consider eliminating the fares, and run the trains from end-to-end to reduce the need to wait and transfer at Central Station.

3. Allow for wrap advertising on vehicles.  Its a great way to bring in some revenue without spending an extra dime.

4. Turn stations into small TODs.  The stations take up a ton of area for a ridership population that just isn't there.  Try and get some income out of that dead space by leasing ground floor area to retail vendors.

5. Integrate cultural uses.  Again, lots of space is being wasted but money still has to go to maintain that space.  Integrate art work, sculptures or historical elements into each of the stations along the line.  The thought here is to add things that will attract people to ride the system itself.  Think of it as being a linear museum.

6. Get with Southbank office towers and medical centers to have the skyway serve as the primary transit spine instead of each of them running their own private shuttles.  My guess is that better reliable service can be run by pooling private and public resources together.

7. Fixed-mass transit can spur economic development when properly integrated with surrounding land uses.  Never underestimate the importance of connectivity and urban clustering around major mass transit lines.  Imagine if the arena or the baseball grounds were constructed at Convention Center, Jefferson, Riverplace, Kings Avenue Station or in FCCJ's parking lot at State & Laura?  Can anyone say that ridership would not be higher and that downtown would not be better because of it?  Cities like Phoenix and Charlotte are benefitting from moves like this.  Going forward, we should be applying a few of these techniques in our own sick urban environment.

Anyway, implement some of these ideas and I guarantee that ridership and revenue will increase without investing one dime in more tract.  In the meantime, don't be afraid to compete for federal dollars to fund logical short extensions (Riverside Ave, Stadium District, Atlantic Blvd, etc.) of the system.  The worst thing that can happen is the feds tell us no and we end up where we are currently.  However, if we did land some sort of sustainability or livability grant, it may have a chance to actually connect people with a real destination that leads to more riders and revenue.

[fieldafm]

because it has done, and continues to do, such a magnificent job of killing any local love for mass transit projects,

This is a point that is difficult to ignore.  In casual conversations I have, whenever I bring up the topic about fixed mass transit options... invariably the uninformed party will bring up the skyway as opposition to commuter rail, streetcars, etc.  Hell, I was at a bbq yesterday discussing the launch of the expanded Riverside PCT trolley service starting tomorrow and that skyway boondoggle point was made twice. 

Which is why it is imperative we do a better job of educating the public about the benefits of fixed transit options as it relates to community building.  This site does a great job, and I will say I am officially a convert b/c of Metrojacksonville.com.  One of the ways to do that, would be to have a more honest look at skyway costs/revenues... and truly that is the main point of my contention towards these numbers being presented and oft-quoted in public communications.  All the average person sees is this top line number, and the average person thinks the city is kicking in some 14 million in cash to keep the system running every year... and honestly, they don't.

STJR, was a check written last year to pay for the depreciation cost?

Agreed.

Look, is the skyway a success?  Hardly.  Is there reason for its failure thus far to live up to its initial billing?  Clearly.  But, the real issue is... how do we better use this asset in our transportation needs, and how would this advance fixed mass transit options in our community?  Any other argument is a wasted exercise.

[thelakelander]

Look, is the skyway a success?  Hardly.  Is there reason for its failure thus far to live up to its initial billing?  Clearly.  But, the real issue is... how do we better use this asset in our transportation needs, and how would this advance fixed mass transit options in our community?  Any other argument is a wasted exercise.

Well said, fieldafm.

[JeffreyS]

The skyway stinks because it is a stand alone computer in the age of the internet.

[CS Foltz]

lake........you make valid points! Turnstile's not operating, would lead me to believe that any count of ridership is a case of he said .......she said! JTA's numbers have allways been suspect with me and when someone says......well we average around 2k per day............I allways say, to myself, how were they counted? Until there is an accurate count, it is kind of hard to make any educated guess as to how many and when! Federal Funds still come out of our pocket and yes, I do agree, that if that funding is available.....then we should go for it,since the $kyway as is, is not productive for what it cost's per rider! We have to have a barometer to measure its success no matter what anyones position is regarding the silly thing! There has to be a point of no return on investment, depreciation added to the figures or not!

[thelakelander]

Regarding federal funds, you might as well fight for them to spent on local "logical" projects. If you don't there are thousands of other American cities that will be more than willing to use your tax money for their own projects.

[tufsu1]

600,000 riders in Miami for their investment doesn't look to be a ringing success either.  Remember, we predicted 300,000 riders a day for just our 2.5 miles.

um...I believe the projections were for no more than 300,000 riders A MONTH.

but what about streetcars and/or commuter rail....we're likely to not see more than 5,000 riders a day on any of those routes...are they worth investiong $100+ million in?

[CS Foltz]

600,000 riders in Miami for their investment doesn't look to be a ringing success either.  Remember, we predicted 300,000 riders a day for just our 2.5 miles.

um...I believe the projections were for no more than 300,000 riders A MONTH.

but what about streetcars and/or commuter rail....we're likely to not see more than 5,000 riders a day on any of those routes...are they worth investing $100+ million in?

What is JTA spending to move 2k per day now.....with just bus? If rail were the main people moving system and bus was the feeder for rail, it seems to me that would be a more cost effective efficient system!

[ChriswUfGator]

600,000 riders in Miami for their investment doesn't look to be a ringing success either.  Remember, we predicted 300,000 riders a day for just our 2.5 miles.

um...I believe the projections were for no more than 300,000 riders A MONTH.

but what about streetcars and/or commuter rail....we're likely to not see more than 5,000 riders a day on any of those routes...are they worth investiong $100+ million in?

JTA is already wasting as much money to move less people than that with the skyway, and again with its crappy bus system, which in addition to being a giant waste is also creating pollution and traffic congestion. You're acting like rail is some giant waste of money, but you're forgetting JTA wastes plenty of money on its crappy nonfunctional bus 'system' already. If you can eliminate that mess, it would be hard for it not to be an improvement. That is, unless JTA runs the rail system too. Then it would be just one more disaster.

[CS Foltz]

Chris...........I agree!! JTA has no business running any rail system, since they have proved beyond any jury's deliberation they are inept,misguided and stupid! I offer our illustrious bus system as proof!

[Coolyfett]

This issue really needs to be brought up during the Mayor debates. Regardless of each canidates take on it. The question needs to be presented.

What to do with the Skyway?

Should it be expanded/finished/connected to commuter rail

Should it be shutdown?

Should it be left as is?

We need the future mayors to touch this because Peyton & Delaney did not touch it at all. And so far this thing is still tied to Godbold. So 4 mayors did nothing to what Godbold helped create. So all the beefing over cost needs to stop. Take it to the powers or future powers to be. MetroJax may interview some of these canidate and you guys better ask....bring it up. The whole stay still at 8 stations is not progress at all. Every mayor did something great for Jax...Delaney did the most, its time this situation get talked abou during elections.