Skyway Merits Debated

[fieldafm]

So, Field, where do you allocate the cost of depreciation too?  We didn't get the system for free.

Exactly where its being reported... in the net operating income statement posted here.  But that money was already spent.  We're not getting it back if we tear the system down(actually the cost to tear it down, dump it in the ocean, and pay back the federal government would be FAR worse than continuing to operate it.... especially considering that not all revenue attributed to the skyway is actually being reported in this particular income statement)

You know what you're talking about, but you also know that the depreciation expense(a capital expense) isn't adding or subtracting to the cash JTA, COJ, or the feds have to lay out per rider in the current fiscal year.  That's like saying 'well Hell's Bells Martha, those fellers over at General Electric ain't making no money b/c they ain't paid no coporate income tax in years.'

If this was 1989, I would probably be outspoken about the skyway never getting built, so I'm not sitting here being an apologist about the system.

[JeffreyS]

That is right depreciation is about the value things once had depreciated as they age for tax purposes.  Money already spent.  It allows you to on paper to spread your costs around.  Unless you can sell what you are depreciating you can not recoup the cost by not using the asset or even destroying it.
It is sad all of the skyway's revenue is not being clearly stated for all to see. My post is redundant I guess because feildafm already said it better than I.

[Coolyfett]

My boat depreciated a few thousand this year... maybe I should just sink it.

Damn man you got a Boat?! Thats real cool man. I didnt know that.

[Coolyfett]

Knowing that it costs "X" amount of dollars to extend or add to the Skyway, how much of the current system could be reconfigured?  Obviously, it's not as easy as moving Lionel toy train tracks around out of the box, but could sections of the Skyway be salvaged to extend to say, the stadium?  Realizing that there's tons of infrastructure already in place with stations & elevated rail/track,  if it goes from nowhere to nowhere as it is currently configured, how much could be manipulated?  Where is the weakest link?

Weakest link is Rosa Parks & Jefferson stations..even FBC doesnt use it and the church is right there!

[Ocklawaha]

TUFSU? LAKE? While my projects were "South of the border" my understanding of the rules for the FTA grants state that if you fail to implement, or remove, you MUST reimburse the government. When we bought into the Skyway game, we signed the agreements for the grants and POOF we ARE on the hook forever.

There is no negotiating a "deal", to the FTA it's a DONE DEAL. No doubt we could fairly easily obtain grants to finish the whole system, even John Mica is 100% behind that idea. This would be the time to strike but all we have is cowering politico's and managers over at JTA and CITY HALL.


OCKLAWAHA

Well, Ock.  To be an expert on transit, I suppose you have to hate all aspects of it, deny that it needs funding, and never personally use it yourself.

Yeah, you got me Stephen... Passion for the subject always got me in trouble and kept me bared at the gates, complete disinterest with abandon, that was the one key thing I was just never able to master.

That's why they ran me out of town, and I ended up in the rare air of the high Andes cloud forest rebuilding a wrecked railroad system. While I was wasting my time with such a silly project, the REAL experts like Mike Miller, John Peyton, and Don Redman got the really good jobs!

If I would have only hated better it would all be different now... hell, I'd have a future in Jacksonville Transit. All I got for my troubles was learning the Spanish Language, some Portuguese, some Latin a bunch of Pidgin and retirement at 50! Damn bad luck I guess!

Moni i kam baimbai JTA. Hurry up, chop-chop, me kickee ass bilong you.

OCKLAWAHA
numbawan bikpela long transit

[Ocklawaha]

Knowing that it costs "X" amount of dollars to extend or add to the Skyway, how much of the current system could be reconfigured?  Obviously, it's not as easy as moving Lionel toy train tracks around out of the box, but could sections of the Skyway be salvaged to extend to say, the stadium?  Realizing that there's tons of infrastructure already in place with stations & elevated rail/track,  if it goes from nowhere to nowhere as it is currently configured, how much could be manipulated?  Where is the weakest link?

Weakest link is Rosa Parks & Jefferson stations..even FBC doesnt use it and the church is right there!

The original system (or fraction thereof) doesn't need anything more then a change of the switches west of Central Station to allow trains to run from end to end on two routes:

(denotes potential expansion)

LINE #1 (Shands-VA-Health Dept-FSCJ) Rosa Parks-Central Station-Jacksonville Terminal (Farm Market)
LINE #2 (Jackson Square-Atlantic at FEC RY-Hilton) Kings Avenue-San Marco-Central (BOA-Newnan-JSO/Berkman-Maxwell House/Randolph-Stadiums/Met Park)

Two branchline shuttles could be added to run:

LINE #3 (San Marco-Aetna-Baptist/Wolfson)
LINE #4 (Central-Brooklyn-Blue Cross-Park/Roselle-PS4/Riverside Park/5 Points)

The cost of expansion for track similar to what we now have but a tad on the lean side IE: less concrete, would be around $25-35 Million a mile. Max distance in my proposal would add about 5.5 miles, with the initial two lines accounting for about 4 miles.

As for the current weak link? ALL OF IT, the Skyway is like owning 1/2 of a cat and expecting to hear it purr.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Geez Ock..............why do you continue to do JTA's job for them? You forgot to mention Baylock also!

[Coolyfett]

Damn! Did anyone else know Shwaz had a boat?

[stjr]

I guess all of you here that wish to ignore depreciation do the same when you submit mileage reimbursements to your companies for using your car on company business.  You are happy to drive as many miles in your personal car as your employer demands and settle only for reimbursement of your gas, tires, maintenance, and insurance.  You could care less that your car is worth less after every mile you put on it?  Can I hire you to for a courier service?  Without having to ever pay for running down the value of your vehicles, I will be able to undercut everyone in town!

[stjr]

so, stjr, you basically ignored many of the salient points in the article and just highlighted the negative ones.

Reread my post, Tufsu.  I listed all the significant points highlighted by the article that proponents claim would make the Skyway work.  Sorry, if after all that is taken into consideration, the article implies the skepticism remains about the Skyway's viability.  Maybe some people just see it differently from you, Lake, Stephen, and Ock.  Maybe, even most.  Can you handle that?

For example, what the heck does the guy from George Mason know...if downtown people movers can't work, how does MetroMover in Miami get over 600,000 riders a month?

Well, from the articles I have seen, the people in Miami don't seem to think the MetroMover is worth the investment much more than those here think the Skyway is.  And, once again, the number of rides needs to be measured against investment.  600,000 riders in Miami for their investment doesn't look to be a ringing success either.  Remember, we predicted 300,000 riders a day for just our 2.5 miles.  Miami, with a far larger population, a system that is twice as long, and, arguably, interconnected to Metrorail or other mass transit, is only doing double that?  Big deal.  It only looks like a big number because the Skyway is an even bigger disaster.  It's all relative.  By the way, I love how whenever I quote an "expert" that speaks contrary to you and other proponents, you love to dis the expert and say they aren't expert enough.  But, you are?

I'll tell you how...it is connected into other modes of transit...we're starting to do that here by ending bus routes at Skyway stations...and ridership is up....that will continue to increase if we build commuter rail and revitalize downtown.

The charts accompanying the article indicate a sustained downward trend for both the Metromover and Skyway.  The little zigs and zags on the way down don't mean anything unless they show a trend over time.  I note that the spike in March appears for both systems and looks to be seasonal as it shows up in previous years for both systems.  Seasonally adjusted, it looks to be less than prior years.  That says that ridership is actually continuing to drop.  I guess hope springs eternal through rose tinted glasses.

I have asked before and still await an answer: What should a "ride" cost the taxpayers?  How much less than the current $32 or so per ride?

[thelakelander]

The charts accompanying the article indicate a sustained downward trend for both the Metromover and Skyway.

These systems aside, there has been a downward trend on most forms of transportation over the last year or two, due to the fall of the economy.  People don't commute as much when they're out of work.

[stjr]

meh.   more of the same.

A mirror image of the dribble from the opposing side. 

[stjr]

The charts accompanying the article indicate a sustained downward trend for both the Metromover and Skyway.

These systems aside, there has been a downward trend on most forms of transportation over the last year or two, due to the fall of the economy.  People don't commute as much when they're out of work.

Lake, I am not the one trying to convert a one-time uptick into a major sign of sudden success.  Talk to Stephen and Tufsu.  By the way, where were all the riders before the economy fell?

Economy up or down, proponents have their excuses.  I love it.

[Coolyfett]

Has anyone ever seen Purple Rain?

[stjr]

The real disaster is the calamity that you and your highway building and road dependent ilk have perpetrated on the rest of us.  Billions of dollars a year so that you can tool around in your peices of junk and present the rest of us with a bill for it.

No thanks, drivey mcSprawlmonster.

Stephen, just because someone is against your beloved Skyway doesn't mean they oppose mass transit.  To the contrary, you know very well my position here but as usual you spin away to suit your imaginary debate.  In fact, it is because I care so much for the success of mass transit, that I want the Skyway to go away because it has done, and continues to do, such a magnificent job of killing any local love for mass transit projects, diverting funds from better mass transit projects, and dampening downtown's possibilities for the last 20+ years.  [See Ron Barton's quotes above for confirmation of same.]

But, don't let the facts get in the way of your delusions.