Skyway Merits Debated

[stjr]

Stephen, you would make a terrific straight man in a comedy routine.  Seriously, you should check it out.  I just reread this thread and got a few more great laughs out of it.  You may have a hidden "talent". 

[simms3]

This thread is going nowhere, nobody wins.  Done.  Bottom line, Skyway is a boondogle that should never have been built in the first place.  At this point, any accounting errors or gimmicks could do verrryyyy little to make the situation better or worse.

[stjr]

Accounting can put anyone to sleep. Even imaginary accounting.  Gd' night.  

[tufsu1]

If you purchase a 100 thousand dollar car, and it depreciates 50% over 5 years you did not spend 150 thousand dollars when you end up selling it for 50 thousand.

You spent 50 thousand plus operation and maintenance, and you got the value of use for the five years.

Pretty damned simple eh?

It pains me to say this....but yes Stephen, you are right...it is just that simple!

[fieldafm]

depreciation should be considered a capital loss...not an operational loss

Well, really depreciation is a capital expense that would be factored into the net operating income/loss

Both SJTR and Mr Dare are making some good points, but

Your contention that the depreciation figures constitute a 'cost' of operation is a bugaboo in this case, designed to make an accounting procedure look like an outlay of cash, and you have repeatedly used this bugaboo to make claims like 'it costs so and so dollars per rider' and several other similar deceptive remarks.

I would have to agree here... you can't use a depreciation expense to factor what the costs are per rider. 

[stjr]

Stephen, don't appreciate you hijacking my thread so you could change the title and the subject to suit your purposes.  I have retitled the original post.  Try leaving it alone this time.

[stjr]

If you purchase a 100 thousand dollar car, and it depreciates 50% over 5 years you did not spend 150 thousand dollars when you end up selling it for 50 thousand.

You spent 50 thousand plus operation and maintenance, and you got the value of use for the five years.

Pretty damned simple eh?

It pains me to say this....but yes Stephen, you are right...it is just that simple!

I have no idea where you guys are coming up with this nonsense (I sure never made these statements even though you are trying to attribute them to me) but you sure are showing your ignorance of accounting.  I hate to think you are qualified to evaluate the finances of transit policies.  Very scary.

[stjr]

I would have to agree here... you can't use a depreciation expense to factor what the costs are per rider. 

So, Field, where do you allocate the cost of depreciation too?  We didn't get the system for free.

[stjr]

Good overview of the Skyway in today's T-U (see quote below).  It notes that the Skyway costs $14 million a year to operate.  Hmmm.... I bet they included depreciation.  Just like JTA and I do.   Only a few accounting challenged posters here seem to not get it.

Love the quotes from all the mayors backing away from it.  And, from Ron Barton confirming my understanding that it HURTS DEVELOPMENT and PROPERTY VALUES.  Who wants to look at an ugly street killing albatross?

The most salient point is made by the George Mason Center for Transportation Policy that notes no one will ride it downtown (vs. an airport or Disney) because there are other options.  This is precisely why I advocate its immediate demise.  I don't think the Skyway will ever be worthy of its costs.  It's a failed concept as it doesn't have the cost effectiveness to travel the distances needed to make it a success.  So why keep it going?  Kill it and invest the money in something more appropriate like streetcars.  Or, even buses.

I guess Stephen and other proponents here can be satisfied that all their positions are articulated:  Wait for downtown to grow, connect the thing to other transit, get rid of parking, make it go somewhere worthwhile.  But other than JTA and Mica, looks like they couldn't find anyone to bite on those hooks.  Even Blaylock refuses to support its expansion.  Mr. Blaylock, I may have been a critic of yours on other JTA matters, but this we are in full agreement!    Now, if we could just work on agreeing to abandon it.  Well, maybe another day.  I think time is on my side.

In the end, I think I can continue to rest easy that there is close to zero interest in investing more in the Skyway and a significant desire to wish it would just go away.

After 20 years, Jacksonville Skyway remains a punchline
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-09-05/story/after-20-years-jacksonville-skyway-remains-punchline

By Larry Hannan

The Skyway has been a Jacksonville joke for a generation.

But the underachieving, 2.5-mile elevated people mover that first opened in 1989 isn't all that funny.

Look up at its silent, almost-empty cars and you can see the failure of downtown as a place to live and work. The dingy stations reflect Jacksonville's inability to come up with a successful long-term transportation plan.

More than 20 years after it opened, the number of people who ride the Skyway remains low. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority originally promised 100,000 riders per month, but its average last year was less than a third of that.

And it loses money - a lot of money.

The system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA's bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.

JTA says to be patient and that eventually the Skyway will be a success. The agency is counting on things breaking its way, such as vibrant downtown development and private entities who are willing to partner with JTA to expand the Skyway or build a transportation system that links to it.

Those things, though, didn't happen even in a roaring economy.

While running for mayor in 1991, Ed Austin said he wanted to stop construction on the nearly new system because of doubts it would ever work. As mayor, he changed his mind, in part because of fears - true to this day - that Washington would force JTA to pay back the money it had gotten.

Last month, Austin said he still thinks it was a mistake.

"It could work if you get more people downtown," he said. "But it would take a major revitalization of the downtown for that to happen."

Who uses it, anyway?

Most of today's Skyway ridership appears to be on the northern section, between Hemming Plaza and Florida State College at Jacksonville.

Stations at Jefferson Street on the Northside and Riverplace Boulevard and Kings Avenue on the Southside are a good place to enjoy some peace and quiet.

A fire shut down the Riverplace station last year for several months until about $270,000 in repairs were made. No one seemed to notice, or care.

And yet it has its supporters.

Brian Presley takes the Skyway from San Marco to the Central Station most weekdays while commuting to his office in the Wachovia Building. It's cheaper for him take the Skyway than park in a downtown parking garage.

"I think the Skyway is a good idea that badly needs to be expanded," he said.

Beth Slater enjoys taking the Skyway from the Southbank into downtown, especially when she's showing the city to out-of-town visitors and newcomers.

"Occasionally I get the feeling I'm in a different city," Slater said, "or that Jacksonville has a grasp on public transit."

She just wishes the ride wasn't so short.

And that's the problem, said Ken Button, director of the Center for Transportation Policy, Operations and Logistics at George Mason University in Virginia. Urban people movers need to travel farther to be effective.

"It's the type of system that works great at Disneyland or at an airport when there are not other options available," Button said. "But people in downtown areas won't ride it when they have other options."

Why didn't it work?

In the 1970s, local leaders thought they had a great idea.

Concerned with congestion on roads and toll bridges, air pollution and a lack of parking, Jacksonville transportation planners came to believe another option was needed for getting people into downtown.

The solution? A 4.4-mile people-mover system that would connect the medical centers on Eighth Street with Riverside, San Marco and the Gator Bowl.

The federal government was willing, having already put up money for similar elevated people movers in Miami and Detroit. And although Jacksonville wasn't able to get enough money to build the whole route, after years of twists and turns, it built the first stretch of the 2.5-mile downtown line that exists today.

Former Mayor Jake Godbold championed the Skyway and was in office when the city was awarded the first federal grant in 1985. He said he now regrets it.

"The business community thought it would help the downtown," Godbold said. "But if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have pushed for it."

The system was built on the assumption that growth would continue downtown and that didn't happen, said former Mayor Tommy Hazouri.

"We all assumed people would always come downtown to go shopping," he said. "We didn't anticipate something like the St. Johns Town Center."

JTA and the city should have focused on a system that took people from the suburbs into the downtown, Hazouri said.

Instead, JTA wanted the city to limit downtown parking, which it said would have encouraged people to take the Skyway. That plan made its way into some of the city's long-term comprehensive plans but was never enforced.

In fact, it was reversed.

Available parking has probably doubled in downtown since the 1980s, said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. Keeping cars out of downtown was never a priority, he said.

Then there was the stadium idea.

A line to the Gator Bowl was on JTA's initial plans and remained on the drawing board until as recently as 2002. JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock tabled it, saying the system needed to be successful before it expanded.

Former Mayor John Delaney said it should have been the other way around.

"The Skyway was built in the wrong place," he said, "and will not work until an extension is done to connect it to the football stadium."

Failure is not an option

Despite the Skyway's shortcomings, no local leader has called for it to be torn down.

It would probably cost tens of millions of dollars, and JTA estimates it would have to pay about $90 million back to the federal government if it did.

It would also hold the city back from getting money for projects it actually needs.

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., the ranking Republican on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

"It would go to the end of the line for everything," Mica said.

But that shouldn't be an issue, because there's nothing wrong with the Skyway, Mica said. It is supposed to connect to other modes of public transportation, those have never been built, and that is why the Skyway looks like a bad idea, he said.

"A lot of cities would love to have a system like the Skyway," Mica said "It would probably cost $500 million to install something similar today."

Blaylock said he would fight to keep the Skyway even if the federal government didn't care about getting its money back.

"Shutting down the Skyway is like turning your back on downtown," he said. "I can't do that."

But downtown may have already turned its back on the Skyway. Although the system needs downtown redevelopment to thrive, the feeling is not mutual.

Barton said its success or failure is not expected to have much impact on redevelopment. In fact, the Skyway's presence on Hogan Street may be making it harder to attract businesses downtown.

"Recognizing its marginal use," Barton said, "you certainly could make an argument that the Skyway has reduced the value of some properties it goes past."

What the future holds

Hazouri ties the success of the Skyway to efforts to revitalize downtown.

"Get people living and working downtown," Hazouri said, "and everything changes."

He's not alone in that view.

Steve Arrington, JTA director of resource management, said more people who work in the downtown are choosing to live closer to where they work. This is causing communities like Riverside, Springfield and San Marco to flourish. That will lead to more congested roads and parking downtown - and, Arrington believes, create a need for the Skyway with people parking at the Prime Osborn Convention Center parking lots and at the Kings Avenue parking garage on the Southside.

The Skyway has seen an uptick in ridership recently, and Arrington said that is largely due to more people living and working close to downtown.

Next, connecting the Skyway to other forms of transit is necessity. Blaylock said that includes getting a commuter rail system built that will take people from the suburbs to the Prime Osborn - and getting federal money to build it.

A recent study found that a system could be built for about $600 million, and JTA hopes to get the money to build it within the next 10 years. Mica said JTA has a good chance because the Obama administration is pushing for more rail.

JTA might also pursue a fixed-rail trolley system to get downtown pedestrians to areas the Skyway does not go, such as Shands, EverBank Field and Riverside. A public-private partnership would be sought to get this done, Blaylock said.

The Metromover in Miami, which has a similar design to the Skyway, is a good model for eventual success Jacksonville, Mica said.

Opened in 1986 and extended in 1994, the 4.4-mile Metromover averaged 660,000 riders a month in 2009. The downtown system connects to Miami Metrorail, which goes to the outskirts of the city.

The Metromover, which cost $23.3 million to operate in 2009, is free of charge because of a half-penny sales tax Miami-Dade County voters passed in 2002.

The Skyway was also free of charge when it opened and, initially, ridership was at capacity. A month later, JTA began charging 25 cents, and ridership tanked.

Back in those days, former JTA Chairman Arnold Tritt, responding to continued criticism that the Skyway was costing too much, predicted that history would vindicate the agency.

"I really think in the year 2020, 2010 ... whenever," Tritt said, "people are going to say, 'What visionaries!' "

No one has, yet.

HOW IT ALL BEGAN

1972: A people mover is first proposed for Jacksonville to solve downtown traffic and parking problems.

March 1976: Planning for a people mover is renewed after a four-year hiatus, when the U.S. Urban Mass Transportation Administration invites Jacksonville to apply for a demonstration grant.

May 1976: A mayor's task force approves a two-stage, 2.2-mile proposal.

June 1976: The city applies for an UMTA grant to build a $33 million system from University Hospital (now Shands Jacksonville) to FCCJ, down Hogan Street to Bay Street and east to the Duval County Courthouse.

December 1976: Jacksonville's proposal is rejected. City officials vow to seek other grants.

June 1977: The U.S. Senate orders Jacksonville added to list of cities.

November 1978: A citizens commission recommends a route that would link Riverside, San Marco, the Gator Bowl and University Hospital.

October 1979: JTA approves what it says is the final, 4.6-mile route that would end at University Hospital at the north end, Market Street on the east, the Blue Cross Blue Shield building on the southwest and St. Johns Place across the river. Estimated cost: $120 million-$140 million.

November 1980: Washington tells Jacksonville to cut the size and cost, saying the project does not fit into the program guidelines.

February 1981: The route is cut to 2 miles, estimated to cost $50-$60 million.

April 1981: The Reagan administration ends the people-mover program. Cities that have received funds are told to spend it on other transportation needs.

January 1983: Congress reauthorizes the program; cities are told to reapply.

February 1985: The Federal Urban Mass Transit Administration grants JTA $23.5 million for the 0.7-mile first leg of what is called the Automated Skyway Express. The grant requires that it be running by Sept. 30, 1988. This will be delayed several times.

July 1987: JTA awards a contract to build the first 0.7-mile section, from the Prime Osborn Convention Center to Bay Street between Pearl and Julia streets.

May 1989: The starter line opens. Cost: $34.6 million.

September 1989: JTA hires Kaiser Engineers Inc. to design a 1.8-mile extension.

December 1990: A report from the U.S. Department of Transportation, citing low ridership, criticizes the Skyway and recommends that no funding be given for the extension. Florida members of Congress rally to its defense.

August 1994: JTA awards a contract to extend the Skyway from Central Station to the downtown campus of FCCJ. Another leg will cross the Acosta Bridge to the Southside.

December 1996: The Skyway is shut down so its cars can be replaced with a new monorail system. Buses take riders along the route.

December 1997: The system reopens, several months late. The only stops are the Prime Osborn and Hemming Plaza. Officials say other stations will open or reopen in 1998.

October 1998: The first passengers take the Skyway over the St. Johns River.

February 1999: JTA announces the Skyway endpoint on the Southbank will be on Kings Avenue next to a 2,400-space parking space garage. The total, final cost: $183.3 million.

November 2000: The entire system opens to the public. The total, final cost: $183.3 million.

[thelakelander]

Good article.  It highlights the problems that many of those who don't want to throw in the towel have been saying.

1. You have to pay the government back as much as $90 million in addition to demolition costs.

2. It wasn't built as planned (2.5 miles instead of 4.4 miles means it's incomplete).

3. It won't work until its connected with a regional transit system to feed riders into it.

[stjr]

Good article.  It highlights the problems that many of those who don't want to throw in the towel have been saying.

1. You have to pay the government back as much as $90 million in addition to demolition costs.

2. It wasn't built as planned (2.5 miles instead of 4.4 miles means it's incomplete).

3. It won't work until its connected with a regional transit system to feed riders into it.

Lake, you are true to form.  I acknowledge all your points were made in the article.

But the article makes clear #2 isn't going to change.

With regard to #1, unfortunately, the reporter failed to explore the documentary and legal support for the oft quoted payback to the Feds, whether it would truly harm (Mica's self-serving face saving comments aside) our standing given this was a Federal EXPERIMENTAL project, and, for the same reason, if the Feds, even if legally entitled, would truly require the payback given the time elapsed and miserable failure (for whatever reasons) of the Skyway.  [In fact, to your point #2, if the Feds failed to build out what you believe is a critical mass, then they, being complicit in its failure, should allow taxpayers at every level to cut their losses by forgetting the whole project without penalties.]

As to #3, this is a long time coming, even now, and, when it does come, there are superior and more cost effective ways to achieve the connectivity you tout.  The Skyway would no way be missed more then than it is now.  

[Ocklawaha]

I was looking at a breakdown of JTA ridership by route and found that most are under 2,000 per day. Numbers such as 1,600-1,800 were the most common. In the light of route length the Skyway is one of the best performing of the lot!

Unfreaking believable, especially in light of the FACT that a full 50% of the Skyway's ridership goes aboard with UNPAID FARES. Without some form of ticketing at the turnstile there is no way to prove that a person is freeloading.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Good article.  It highlights the problems that many of those who don't want to throw in the towel have been saying.

1. You have to pay the government back as much as $90 million in addition to demolition costs.

2. It wasn't built as planned (2.5 miles instead of 4.4 miles means it's incomplete).

3. It won't work until its connected with a regional transit system to feed riders into it.

Lake, you are true to form.  I acknowledge all your points were made in the article.

But the article makes clear #2 isn't going to change.

It's clear that it won't attract riders if it does not go anywhere.  If Blaylock is scared to expand it, he should be aggressively pushing forward with commuter rail and streetcars to feed riders into it instead of backing a BRT plan that will make the situation worse.  In this case, JTA has become their own worst enemy.

With regard to #1, unfortunately, the reporter failed to explore the documentary and legal support for the oft quoted payback to the Feds, whether it would truly harm (Mica's self-serving face saving comments aside) our standing given this was a Federal EXPERIMENTAL project, and, for the same reason, if the Feds, even if legally entitled, would truly require the payback given the time elapsed and miserable failure (for whatever reasons) of the Skyway.

If you have access to information proving otherwise, please provide a link.  Such news would change the conversation.  However, we would still have to risk being black balled by the feds for any other transit improvements we want to make in the future.

[In fact, to your point #2, if the Feds failed to build out what you believe is a critical mass, then they, being complicit in its failure, should allow taxpayers at every level to cut their losses by forgetting the whole project without penalties.]

Locally we stopped.  For all we know, we could probably win an urban livability grant or something to make the skyway a more usable part of a long range transportation plan.  However, if we don't ask, we won't know.

As to #3, this is a long time coming, even now, and, when it does come, there are superior and more cost effective ways to achieve the connectivity you tout.  The Skyway would no way be missed more then than it is now.

Unless you have access to secret documentation saying there won't be negative effects from the feds by tearing down something they paid for, we have to assume that there will be no number 3 without the skyway.

Thus, this brings us full circle back to my view about the skyway. Whether it's expanded or not, we need to find ways to better utilize what is in place, which will cut down on the current cost to the taxpayer.  With this in mind, Blaylock and Barton (especially him) are way off base on their views.  Downtown will always struggle without good reliable mass transit between it and the surrounding neighborhoods.  The JEDC, JTA and other agencies should be working together to make sure everything they plan is properly coordinated in an effort for us to reach long term vibrancy as quick as possible.  That won't happen when agencies continue to plan and integrate projects that don't fit with one another.  We blow more money this way than anything else.

[tufsu1]

so, stjr, you basically ignored many of the salient points in the article and just highlighted the negative ones.

For example, what the heck does the guy from George Mason know...if downtown people movers can't work, how does MetroMover in Miami get over 600,000 riders a month?

I'll tell you how...it is connected into other modes of transit...we're starting to do that here by ending bus routes at Skyway stations...and ridership is up....that will continue to increase if we build commuter rail and revitalize downtown.

[Ocklawaha]

TUFSU? LAKE? While my projects were "South of the border" my understanding of the rules for the FTA grants state that if you fail to implement, or remove, you MUST reimburse the government. When we bought into the Skyway game, we signed the agreements for the grants and POOF we ARE on the hook forever.

There is no negotiating a "deal", to the FTA it's a DONE DEAL. No doubt we could fairly easily obtain grants to finish the whole system, even John Mica is 100% behind that idea. This would be the time to strike but all we have is cowering politico's and managers over at JTA and CITY HALL.


OCKLAWAHA