Skyway Merits Debated

[stjr]

$ky-high-way ridership drops another 20% to 1,400 rides a day (from 1,700 last quarter) per American Public Transit Association's latest quarterly  report.

Based on round trips, that's 700 unique riders.  $14 million subsidy/year/700 riders = $20,000 subsidy/year per daily rider!

See page 16 of report at http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q2_ridership_APTA.pdf .

By the way, JTA officials now say the $ky-high-way is designed to serve auto commuters to Downtown, not connecting bus riders or others moving about the Downtown area.  So the $20,000 subsidy per rider or $14 million total subsidy per year is just to cover the last mile of transit for a suburban commuter by car.

Per Suraya Teeple,  JTA transportation planning manager (followed by my comments made on the BRT thread from which this article was quoted [http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,321.0.html]):

Except for Jefferson and Broad, the bus-only lanes follow the same route as the Skyway, which hasn’t come close to meeting the ridership estimates anticipated when it was being built.

Teeple said the two systems serve different people. The Skyway was designed for people who drive downtown and then get on the people mover to get closer to where they work,she said, and people using the new lanes will take a bus into the downtown and then transfer over to one of the downtown buses.

So, the $ky-high-way is for commuters, now, not people trying to get around Downtown.  It's official so let's not have any more MJ posters suggest we need to expand the $ky-high-way to take us to Riverside, San Marco, or the Stadium.  It's only for AUTO (not BUS) commuters headed to work, and then, only if the job is directly at a $ky-high-way stop.  That may offer us just one more reason why the thing has no riders.

I guess JTA figures that AUTO commuters wouldn't be interested in literally lowering themselves into taking a street level Downtown bus from their parking lot along with the BUS commuters from the burbs.  No, we need a separate system that literally elevates them to segregate everyone and duplicate services.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-18/story/jta_considering_bus_only_lanes_downtown

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[Lunican]

Not surprising at all. They've cut its hours and days of operation. They've cut its headways. And they raised the fare.

Hopefully they weren't expecting a ridership increase with those moves.

[chipwich]

We have to believe in the skyway.  It is a great hope for downtown.  Like others have said, the system needs to be finished and lead to viable destinations.  Currently, the sysytem is not very efficent and most stations do not really stop at anywhere anyone wants to be.

Should the system be expanded with a line to the stadium and down Riverside Ave. and San Marco, ( and maybe Main St to Springfield) I think it would be a hit. 

It is very hard for high cost systems like the skyway to make a profit, but the benefits of easy automated transportation and connectivity are amazing.  Just imagine the benefits to restaurants, bars and hotels during Jaguar games and special events (Like FL-GA, Gator Bowl etc.).  Think of how valuable this system could be once we finally get some more residents and businesses into the urban core, or (crossing fingers) we get a functional convention center.

I personally would love to use this system to navigate the central core and I think thousands of others would as well.

Only one more criticism though.  We need to police the trains and keep vagrants out of these trains.  They make me uncomfortable during the very few times a year I do use the train.

[thelakelander]

Not surprising at all. They've cut its hours and days of operation. They've cut its headways. And they raised the fare.

Hopefully they weren't expecting a ridership increase with those moves.

To tell the truth, its amazing the thing gets as much as 1,400 riders a day.  Nearly every move made concerning it this decade has been the type that would kill it.  Higher fares, reduced hours, unreliable headways, reduced operating days, etc. have been pretty effective in reducing ridership during a time when mass transit use is becoming popular again.

[stjr]

Chipwich, all your desires have been previously posted and thoroughly discussed in thousands of MJ posts.  Rather than repeat why I and some others feel your well-intentioned desires are misplaced, please reread the previous posts on this and numerous other threads on MJ to view counterpoints to your proposals (if you remain open on this subject).  I think you will find many good reasons offered as to why the $ky-high-way is not the best solution to accomplishing your end goals which we all share.  Some among us think there are far better and more cost effective solutions than the $ky-high-way in any form it may be capable of taking.

And, it's not about making a profit, it's about delivering the best transit solution for the least costs.  The $ky-high-way is far from the answer in my book.  The $ky-high-way has run on "belief" and "hope" for long enough.

The $ky-high-way's lack of real purpose is best demonstrated by JTA's ever shifting explanation of why it exists and why it fails and by its continuous failure over 20 years to fall over 90% short of "expert" expectations for each of the already constructed phases.

If you want some MJ $ky-high-way thread links beyond this one, I will be happy to furnish on request.

[stjr]

To tell the truth, its amazing the thing gets as much as 1,400 riders a day.  Nearly every move made concerning it this decade has been the type that would kill it.  Higher fares, reduced hours, unreliable headways, reduced operating days, etc. have been pretty effective in reducing ridership during a time when mass transit use is becoming popular again.

Lake, your "wish" may come true.  Based on the APTA report, the last month of the quarter reported showed ridership down to a low of 1,100 riders per day.  This may be the average or peak going into the third quarter.  We shall see.

Will the implementation of BRT downtown precipitate more declines?  How few have to use it to kill it off?  That is the question.  We are already at the point where it is truly a "flush millions down the hole" spectacle with no chance of a revival in its future.  Just remember how far $14 million a year could go to supporting street cars!

[Bostech]

We can stop skyway service,stop skyway cars on tracks and turn it into homeless housing,that way we can get homeless off the street.

[thelakelander]

Will the implementation of BRT downtown precipitate more declines?

Of course it will.  Unless JTA reverses the moves they've made and continue to make there is no realistic reason to believe ridership will increase any time soon.

[blizz01]

Knowing that it costs "X" amount of dollars to extend or add to the Skyway, how much of the current system could be reconfigured?  Obviously, it's not as easy as moving Lionel toy train tracks around out of the box, but could sections of the Skyway be salvaged to extend to say, the stadium?  Realizing that there's tons of infrastructure already in place with stations & elevated rail/track,  if it goes from nowhere to nowhere as it is currently configured, how much could be manipulated?  Where is the weakest link?

[chipwich]

The $ky-high-way's lack of real purpose is best demonstrated by JTA's ever shifting explanation of why it exists and why it fails and by its continuous failure over 20 years to fall over 90% short of "expert" expectations for each of the already constructed phases.

Your reasons for wanting to replace the skyway are well founded. I also agree that there are many other cheaper and more effective systems that could better serve the urvban core.   However, it must be noted that the skyway never lived up to expectations because it was built wrong and with no realistic purpose or direction.  

If you put up a mag-lev system in the middle of Arkansas, it would be cool, but illogical and a waste of money.  The system as it stands was built incorrectly and with no real reason.  Sure other types of transportation could work very well, but we can also build on what we have and give it a real reason to exist.  

The Las Vegas monorail is probably the best example here. MGM and Harrahs built a small monorail system in Las Vegas back in the 1990s.  It only stopped at two hotels and have no major advertising.  It was a waste of money between the two companies and carried very few passengers to only two locations.  As a decade went by, with city help assistance (bonds), a private company was able to build on the ill-fated monorail by extending the track to more hotels and the convention center and replaced the entire system with a state of the art Bombardier system that was fast, efficient and reached critical places of interest.  It now serves as a great system that has helped tourists, resorts, and has cut down on traffic along the congested strip.  It is not yet profitable, but it is close.  Rider-ship before the economic crisis was increasing every year.

While Jacksonville indeed lacks the mass amount of residents and travelers that justify a system like the one in Las Vegas, I think it shows that with a purpose and thoughtful planning, an elevated people mover (or monorail) could do wonders.  Perhaps Jacksonville would need 50,000 more workers and 20,000 more residents in the core before a total system overhaul could be economically justified. Blaming the skyway for not having riders is not the skyway's fault.  It is the fault of those who planned it.  The skyway could yield awesome returns if it reworked into a system that takes riders to desirable destinations.  Problem is, downtown has few people and even fewer desirable destinations.

I think our main disagreement is that some believe there is no chance for the skyway to be revived into a viable and useful mode of transportation in the core.  Some of us disagree and think that given the right direction and planning, the skyway can indeed become a useful and valuable asset to the downtown and the entire urban core.  I for one am not willing to give up on it yet.  One day in the future maybe, but I can't give up on something that has not had a chance to truly prove whether or not it is useful.

[stjr]

Blizz and Chipwich, your responses are noted.  My issue is that your collective desires to continue to invest in the $ky-high-way in the "hopes" it will finally find riders to justify its existence, are in my opinion, not financially or politically feasible.

Why?  First, all the existing phases were estimated based on what exists, not future expansions.  Those estimates were heavily defended when funding was sought as conservative and fact-based.  Now that, after 20 plus years, they are off over 90%, we have some people trying to re-write history and wrongly suggests the figuring was somehow dependent on additional expansions of the $ky-high-way.

Repeating this history by making new ambitious projections to support anther substantial expansion challenges credibility.  Why should the same "experts" be believed this time after being so grossly incorrect at least twice before?  Furthermore, I  believe when one puts whatever numbers to the proposed costs of any expansions versus potentially ACHIEVABLE ridership increases, you will find expansion of the system not at all cost effective or even feasible.  This is especially true when measured against the costs of other alternatives such as streetcars which have the potential to be far more flexible, user and street friendly, less expensive to build and operate, and to carry more passengers to more areas.

The density numbers you cite yourself, Chipwich, are far (perhaps, decades) beyond anything on the horizon for Jax and, as in the past, would amount to pure speculation and guess work.  Further, JTA doesn't view the $ky-high-way, as you do, as a downtown people mover, but rather as the last link in a commute by auto drivers from the suburbs.  This also defies expanding it as you suggest.  

The $ky-high-way also has the burden of not being very desirable by many it theoretically might serve due to the toll it takes on adjacent property owners and those along the streets it travels with its time to build, intimidating elephantine structure, architectural incompatibility, and other street killing attributes.  In previous phases, it destroyed retail on every street it was built upon, and to this day, Downtown still suffers its ill effects.

Lastly, I think it really is a DREAM to expect that taxpayers here will support BOTH an expansion of the $ky-high-way AND commuter rail and streetcars.  The $ky-high-way is a huge political liability to the growth of mass transit in Jax and until our politicians can safely distance themselves from it, it will CONTINUE to serve as an impediment to the expansion of mass transit in this area.  Mass transit advocates need to thoughtfully consider sacrificing the $ky-high-way on the political alter to get much better results from the alternate options awaiting in the wings for the demise of the $ky-high-way.  The sooner, the better.

With essentially zero ridership for its investment, it has no real political constituency and will not be missed.  With millions in annual losses, there would be many money vultures ready to celebrate its demise.  Put all of us out of our misery and let's begin anew.  Kill it off.
 

[CS Foltz]

JTA can not make up its mind as just what the hell the $kyway is going to be used for........what is its purpose in life and just keep coming up with excuses to substantiate $14 Million Dollars a year out of our pockets! This is what I am referring to when I say they have no vision.......other than concreting everything over so we have more and more roads. This should not be the prudent approach to a twenty year point of view which JTA should have to make most efficient use of our tax dollars! Don't need more bus's and darn sure don't need dedicated bus lanes. JTA wants to foul up downtown and it looks like they are going to do it.........sorry downtown!

[tufsu1]

This should not be the prudent approach to a twenty year point of view which JTA should have to make most efficient use of our tax dollars!

That's the crux of the problem....efficient and effective are quite often noty the same thing...which would you rather have?

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1 I so no reason to not get both! To me they both go hand in hand........you should not have to chose between the two!

[stjr]

^ Agreed, CS.  In fact, efficiency and effectiveness are mutually dependent on each other in most cases.  They combine to provide the best VALUE which is what we should always require.  Not the cheapest or most expensive, not the most elaborate or simplest, but the best combination of features that minimally meets and hopefully exceeds requirements and delivers the best total return on the resources invested.