Where Jacksonville Ranks: Freeway Lane Miles Per Capita

[cityimrov]

From the pieces I picked from previous topics I've read on MJ, it sounds like the reason why freeways are always built is because FDOT can fully control them as state roads.  Thus it keeps building freeways in the middle of nowhere vs alternative transportation methods in more dense areas where there is no state control but high population.

They also build freeways in the middle of nowhere because they are pressured by wealthy landowners so that they can open up their land for development.  Outer Beltway is the classic example.

So why doesn't the more influential and larger amounts of people who live in these highly dense area do the same and pressure them to build something there?

Because highly dense areas are already highly dense. The land is already worth a lot ($750,000 for a vacant quarter acre downtown), so there's not nearly as much property value added from infrastructure improvements as land in formerly inaccessible areas (diminishing returns).

So basically, what your saying is Metro Jacksonville's plan of making more dense neighborhoods is a bad idea?   In short, the return on investment on building up Downtown or Riverside or San Marco will be much less than building a highway in the middle of nowhere?  Things like complete streets, while nice, will produce a much lower investment than more freeways? 

[JFman00]

Improving Riverside/San Marco/DT a case where the benefits are widely distributed (many people who may not life in those neighborhoods or own property/businesses can get quite a bit out of improving those neighborhoods) vs one where the benefits are concentrated (building roads in the middle of nowhere most benefits just the property owner).

You asked why people who live in dense areas aren't as able or willing to push for new construction in those areas. They would have to work with their neighbors or have to gain credence as a representative of their neighborhood to advocate effectively for infrastructure improvements, which would be shared accordingly. On the other hand, absentee landlord of a hundred acres not only doesn't have to compete with neighbors who have different priorities, they also stand to capture 100% of the benefit of improvements.

A different way of putting it: the Outer Beltway has high private benefit and relatively low social/public benefit, transit improvements have relatively low private benefit and high public/social benefit. We, as residents of Jacksonville, would benefit much more from transit/urban core improvements than the Outer Beltway but have significantly higher institutional/organizational barriers to advocate for such improvements compared to suburban land developers.

[cityimrov]

Improving Riverside/San Marco/DT a case where the benefits are widely distributed (many people who may not life in those neighborhoods or own property/businesses can get quite a bit out of improving those neighborhoods) vs one where the benefits are concentrated (building roads in the middle of nowhere most benefits just the property owner).

You asked why people who live in dense areas aren't as able or willing to push for new construction in those areas. They would have to work with their neighbors or have to gain credence as a representative of their neighborhood to advocate effectively for infrastructure improvements, which would be shared accordingly. On the other hand, absentee landlord of a hundred acres not only doesn't have to compete with neighbors who have different priorities, they also stand to capture 100% of the benefit of improvements.

A different way of putting it: the Outer Beltway has high private benefit and relatively low social/public benefit, transit improvements have relatively low private benefit and high public/social benefit. We, as residents of Jacksonville, would benefit much more from transit/urban core improvements than the Outer Beltway but have significantly higher institutional/organizational barriers to advocate for such improvements compared to suburban land developers.

That makes more sense.  So basically what has to be done is that the people in these neighborhoods have to unite over a project that they want (let's say light rail through Riverside).  The community also has to be very welcoming and make the process so easy and nice that when FDOT representatives come visit, they would be more happy to work as a City-State Partnership and help a community then they would for a private land developer?
 
Bring out the balloons, the plans, the welcoming mat, the parade, and the open arms!

[JFman00]

Yup just about. By showing that a community will support a project without forcing constant delays and cost overruns, urban development can compete on a fairer footing with deep-pocketed, single-interest speculators. The High Line in NYC is an excellent example of a community-driven urban development effort going toe-to-toe with property developers (who are as a whole not nearly as bad a group as I describe) and winning, with incredible results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Line_(New_York_City)
http://www.thehighline.org/about/friends-of-the-high-line

[Anti redneck]

Who exactly would stand out and push for something like light rail? Is it a possibility that the residents around that area just don't care? That's been a Jacksonville attitude for a very long time now.

[tufsu1]

I find it hard to believe that we have more highways than Orlando, Tampa, or Miami.

we don't necessarily, but we have far fewer people....so the per capita ratio is higher

[ChriswUfGator]

never mind the northern outer beltway.....why do we need any kind of outer beltway?

That's not the tune you were singing last year...

[tufsu1]

^ nice try, but those who actually know me are very aware of my feelings regarding the Outer Beltway

[Bewler]

If you have to build any more interstate how about something that connects to Bay St over by the Maxwell House Coffee plant that could serve as another entrance/exit to the Sports District? Looking at google maps it seems like they could potentially start it from I95 over by the field north of WJXT, cross the river and have it connect on the vacant lot right on the other side.

I know it wouldn’t be at all practical now considering how much you would have to demo, but guess I just always wished we could have had an Interstate that actually ran through our downtown. The current set up of 95 veering to the left through riverside a seems to convey the message “Just go around, nothing to see here. That’s it, keep moving.”

[cline]

I-95/Hart Expressway/Arlington Expressway/ et. al. caused enough detriment to communities that happened to be in their paths.  No need to repeat the process.

[Bewler]

But Cline, if you look on google maps or read the part where I said "start it from I95 over by the FIELD north of WJXT, cross the river and have it connect on the VACANT LOT right on the other side." you'll see that no communities would have to be affected if done properly.

[cline]

Sorry, but I don't agree that utilizing riverfront property for an expressway ramp is the best and highest use of a piece of property.  But maybe that's just me.

[ChriswUfGator]

^ nice try, but those who actually know me are very aware of my feelings regarding the Outer Beltway

But you still couldn't help defending it anyway...lol

Building this road is all about enriching developers and land owners.  Nothing more and nothing less!

as Ms. Bunnewith said, it WILL alleviate existing congestion...those savings may be offset by additional traffic from future development....but the folks in Clay and St. Johns County would call that economic development!

[tufsu1]

and I stand by that point....it doesn't mean I support building the road

if you're going to take a position on something chris, it helps to have enough facts to be able to refute arguments made by the other side 

[tufsu1]

But Cline, if you look on google maps or read the part where I said "start it from I95 over by the FIELD north of WJXT, cross the river and have it connect on the VACANT LOT right on the other side." you'll see that no communities would have to be affected if done properly.

so basically you support building a new expressway on the edge of downtown...and that would be different from I-95 how?