Antarctic Melting Faster, Jacksonville still has no plan

[gatorback]

Apparently, the White House, EPA, WFB, and the entire world community is in on this scandle too.  Everybody, except...you.  Are you for real, or just a BOT that blogs manure when text including global warming is scanned.

Please cite sources for all of this.

Okay, you asked for my sources.  I gave them to you..made a few funny remarks and you're off on a different tangent.  Question, why did you bother asking for my resources if you wanted to go somewhere else with the topic.  I see you have not a rebuttal.  I'm with you brother stephen this lady just wants to debat a mute point.

[gatorback]

Mother Nature is asking you to change your life not the government.  If you'd shut up for a minute you'd hear her.   

[Midway ®]

Actually, your Christian theology is as warped as is your scientific knowledge.  You have already committed the mortal sin of denying Christ in any event.  Maybe gaia will help you on Judgment Day.  Good luck with that. 

RG you are stepping on my franchise.  Please leave the theological interpretations and biblical quotations around here to me and I will leave the support of the Bush renewal of America to you.

[gatorback]

Mandating usage of "technological advancement" without giving choice is a form of it, yes. Forcing people to change their technology, way of life, and their comfort because of a delusion...yes, this is a form of socialism. The premise is to control people under the guise of "saving the planet". When the microwave was invented, people were not mandated to use it...it gained popularity on its own.

I see completely see your point now CN.   It's sort of just like the ice pick lobotomy was heralded as a great advance in psychosurgery from 1936 through the 1950s.  Lobotomies gradually became unfashionable with the development of antipsychotic drugs and are rarely performed.  See the link with the microwave and the incondesent lightbuld now.  There isn't, but we got smarter since the 30's.

I'll be blut.  We used lobotomies until something better came along.  Don't you think the same can happen to the light buld.  Or does this the make no sense to you?  Should I grab my ice pick and head over?

[midnightblackrx]

A lot of emotions are coming out on this thread.  Maybe we could try and be a little bit more civil and try to give points and counter-points rather than taking personal shots to each other's personal believes; however extreme to you they maybe.

What I see happening in the "man-made global warming era" is that the GW believers think that those skeptical of the "truth" to them must be out to destroy the planet.  They think the number one driving force of the skeptics is to push the issue under the rug so that big bad business can take advantage of the Earth. For me it extends much further than that.  Has it ever occured to you that there are big businesses that will prosper from initiating stricter "carbon laws"?

This is a movement that seems to use selectively use evidence to support their already foregone (and ever changing) conclusion that humans are the ultimate evil. 

I can't tell you how scared it makes me to think that there are gov'ts that want to be able to control what type of light bulb I use.  This is all irrational lunacy that will fearmonger to get what they want: money and power to control. 

[riverkeepered]

This thread and many of the comments that I have read are reason for serious concern.  I have been following the GW issue since the early 90's, and the evidence continues to only build and grow much stronger year after year that the earth is warming and that humans are contributing to this warming.  The fact is that the majority of the world's leading scientists support this assertion.  Yes, there is a slim possibility that they are wrong, but the potential environmental and economic consequences of ignoring this problem are so devastating that we must take dramatic actions now.  The actions that are necessary will also potentially strengthen our economy by creating new economic opportunities and jobs and industries that are much more sustainable and less polluting. 

Much of the "evidence" that disputes the GW crisis is junk science that was funded by companies like Exxon that have profited immensely from the status quo.  Even if you are swayed by arguements of the GW deniers, I would ask you to take a look at the impact that humans have had on the environment in general.  Human activity has had devastating effects on the planet in a time span that represents only a blip on the timeline of this planet's history.  We are experiencing a rate of species extinction that is about 1,000 times pre-human levels.  Most of our rivers and streams are polluted and don't meet their designated use.  Invasive species have spread across this planet thanks to us, disrupting ecosystems and costing billions of dollars each year in an attempt to control.  Over time, our actions have for the most part had a negative impact on our planet and ecosystems, and there is no reason to think that we aren't doing the same to our climate.

The good news is that we didn't know as much before as we do today.  We have new technologies that are cleaner and more efficient.  We know how to produce products with far less pollution and waste.  We know how to plan and build communities that much more sustainable.  We can change for the better, and we shouldn't wait to do so.   

Incentives should be provided that will encourage new technologies, renewables, and alternative production and building techniques.  But, regulations and tax devices may have to be utilized, as well.  The free market has no moral conscience and does a poor job of capturing external costs and managing public goods.  One of the keys to an effective free market is information.  Unfortunately, the market doesn't do a good job of providing that either (especially in a global economy with multinational corporations ruling the day), so consumers cannot often make well-informed decisions and choose the more environmentally-friendly products.  Finally, we don't have a right to use an excessive amount of natural resources that are public goods and belongs to all of us and to future generations, anyway.  There are times when our governments have an obligation to step in and regulate our actions in an effort to protect the public good. 

I hope this dialogue can move past whether or not GW is occuring, and start addressing why "Jacksonville still has no plan" and what that plan should be. 

[Midway ®]

This is a movement that seems to use selectively use evidence to support their already foregone (and ever changing) conclusion that humans are the ultimate evil. 

Please describe even one instance where humans have improved any physical aspect of the environment from the standpoint of any life form other than human.

I can't tell you how scared it makes me to think that there are gov'ts that want to be able to control what type of light bulb I use.  This is all irrational lunacy that will fearmonger to get what they want: money and power to control. 

Not to worry. There are literally billions of incandescent light bulbs out there in the marketplace. You will probably be able to get them on Ebay well into the next century, and at very low prices, I might add. The law only mandates that these type of devices not be manufactured any more. You are still free to use them. And as the popularity of that desire declines, the existing stock of bulbs will become even cheaper. You can still buy vacuum tubes on Ebay, (which, depending on your age, you may not even know what they are) and they are very cheap because they are neither collectible nor useful.

[Midway ®]

With regard to the government mandating that you use only certain types of technologies, suppose you want to view only analog television signals? You're out of luck as of February 2009, sorry.

Suppose you think that DC is better than AC power (like T. Edison did). sorry, the government has mandated that only 60 Hertz alternating current shall be used, and to further enforce that rule, all electrical appliances are only made to work on that power scheme. So again, you're out of luck.

Suppose you believe that a Lada is the car that you should own and drive. Too bad, because it does not meet the EPA requirements for emissions or the NTHSA and DOT safety requirements that are mandated by the Government, thus making it illegal to drive on the public highways in this country.

Now I could go on with hundreds more pages of examples like this, but I think you might get the idea. You already live in a country that regulates almost every aspect of your existence, as well as the daily conduct of your life, and to think that taking away your light bulb represents a milestone with regard to the surrender of individual rights, puts you about 50 years behind the curve in terms of awareness of that reality.

[Midway ®]

Please describe even one instance where humans have improved any physical aspect of the environment from the standpoint of any life form other than human.

Just thought of an answer!  Humans act as hosts to colonies of mutating organisms that are generally referred to as pathogens, as well as some other bacterial and viral life forms generally accepted to be harmless , at least to Humans.

[gatorback]

I forgot about those little buggers.  The outcome for them looks really bleak when us humans are gone  because at least 30-60 of those species only live on us.  You have a valid point Midway.

[midnightblackrx]

Midway - I guess I look at humans being as vulnerable as every other creature/plant on this planet.  To think of ourselves as saviors of the world is ridiculus.  The planet will be here long after humans are gone. 

[Midway ®]

Midway - I guess I look at humans being as vulnerable as every other creature/plant on this planet.  To think of ourselves as saviors of the world is ridiculus.  The planet will be here long after humans are gone. 

You are 100% correct in that assertion.

However, the object of this game is to prolong conditions on this planet that would support human life, because , at least from the vantage point of humanity, it really does not matter whether the planet Earth exists or not, if conditions on Earth will not support human life.

[Midway ®]

More complete article:

By Andrea Thompson
updated 1 hour, 27 minutes ago

A vast ice shelf hanging on by a thin strip looks to be the next chunk to break off from the Antarctic Peninsula, the latest sign of global warming’s impact on Earth's southernmost continent.

Scientists are shocked by the rapid change of events.

Glaciologist Ted Scambos of the University of Colorado was monitoring satellite images of the Wilkins Ice Shelf and spotted a huge iceberg measuring 25 miles by 1.5 miles (about 10 times the area of Manhattan) that appeared to have broken away from the shelf.

Scambos alerted colleagues at the British Antarctic Survey (BAS) that it looked like the entire ice shelf â€" about 6,180 square miles (about the size of Northern Ireland)â€" was at risk of collapsing.

David Vaughan of the BAS had predicted in 1993 that the northern part of the Wilkins Ice Shelf was likely to be lost within 30 years if warming on the Peninsula continued at the same rate.

"Wilkins is the largest ice shelf on the Antarctic Peninsula yet to be threatened," he said. "I didn't expect to see things happen this quickly. The ice shelf is hanging by a thread â€" we'll know in the next few days and weeks what its fate will be."

Aircraft reconnaissance
The BAS scientists sent an aircraft out on a reconnaissance mission to survey the extent of damage to the ice shelf.

Jim Elliot, who captured video of the breakout said, "I've never seen anything like this before â€" it was awesome. We flew along the main crack and observed the sheer scale of movement from the breakage. Big hefty chunks of ice, the size of small houses, look as though they've been thrown around like rubble â€" it's like an explosion."

An initial iceberg calved away from the Wilkins Ice Shelf on Feb. 28. A series of images shows the edge of the ice shelf proceeding to crumble and disintegrate in a pattern characteristic of climate-caused ice shelf retreats throughout the northern Antarctic Peninsula. The disintegration left a sky-blue patch of hundreds of large blocks of exposed old glacier ice floating across the ocean surface.

By March 8, the ice shelf had lost just over 220 square miles of ice, and the disintegrated ice had spread over 540 square miles. As of mid-March only a narrow strip of shelf ice between Charcot and Latady islands was protecting several thousand more kilometers of the ice shelf from potentially breaking up.

The region where the Wilkins Ice Shelf lies has experienced unprecedented warming in the past 50 years, with several ice shelves retreating in the past 30 years. Six of these ice shelves have collapsed completely: Prince Gustav Channel, Larsen Inlet, Larsen A, Larsen B, Wordie, Muller and the Jones Ice Shelf.

Antarctic warming
The Wilkins Ice Shelf was stable for most of the last century until it began retreating in the 1990s. A previous major breakout occurred there in 1998 when 390 square miles of ice was lost in just a few months.

"We believe the Wilkins has been in place for at least a few hundred years, but warm air and exposure to ocean waves are causing it to break up," Scambos said.

The Antarctic Peninsula has warmed faster than anywhere else in the Southern Hemisphere; temperature records show that the region has warmed by over 37 degrees Fahrenheit during the past 50 years â€" several times the global average and only matched in Alaska.

Other parts of Antarctica, including the East Antarctic Ice Sheet, seem to be more stable, though areas of melt have been observed in recent years.

Melting in the Antarctic is different than the recent record melt in the Arctic. Antarctica is composed of ice sheets, or huge masses of ice up to 2.5 miles thick that lie on top of bedrock and flow toward the coast, and ice shelves, the floating extensions of ice sheets. Arctic ice is primarily sea ice, some of which persists year-round and some of which melts in the summer and freezes again in the winter.

© 2008 LiveScience.com. All rights reserved.

[Ocklawaha]

Like what the hell plan would you suggest if the sea is 20 or 40 feet higher then downtown? Sandbags? Hell tow the big Ice chunk here and we'll make an artic theme park out of it until we all sink beneath the waves.
Sounds like a plan to me! Hey would this make my desert property in California "Ocean Front" hee hee


Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

But Stephendare, Seawalls eat sand dunes! (see what's left of Miami Beach)...
Maybe some giant wind machines to blow the water away from the coast toward Africa?

Ocklawaha