John Gorrie Condos

[avs]

I've started looking at buying a 4-plex in Orange Park or some other rental building purely for income instead, then renting a nicer place with some of the proceeds. Seems to make more sense financially, especially considering the longest I'll only be in Jax 3-6 years

Buying a quad and using the income, especially if you will only be here for a few years is a great idea.   If you aren't paying cash for the building you can live in one of the units as well to help pay your own mortgage down while you are here . You can continue to lease it once you leave  and have income for as long as you want, great long term investment.

Can anyone explain the success of 1661? Is it location and location only

I think a lot has to do with location but it was also a different market when they were first for sale.  When they were first for sale, I was working for Lifestyles Realtors in Riverside across the street who represented 1661 initially.  When they were first released the market was quite different and that had a lot to do with it. 

There was a also a dedicated site person and the units were in MLS.  MLS dumps into hundreds of other real estate websites, including yahoo, trulia, zillow, etc.

Plus, the area has just continued to grow right there (granted not everyone likes the congestion there).  So some is location, some is the fact it was a different market initially, some is the way it was marketed.

I heard a few years ago that some buyers at 1661 were unhappy with the finishes - has anyone else heard anything about that or was some of that fixed?

[simms3]

And might I point out there are some obstacles facing Jacksonville to urbanizing.  Your transplant from Long Island just sold his tiny house for $895K and is moving down.  He's moving from a much more urban place with old established town centers and trains into the city.  He may be moving from something similar to JG without a yard and without mature live oaks all around it.  When he comes down, he's going to choose between 2 lifestyles:

1) He'll want to be in the city.  He can afford 10 units at JG, but would never move there.  Why live in a smaller space when in Jacksonville he can afford a mansion or 3 bedroom luxury condo in the city?  And who ever heard of mansions with acre yards "in the city" in the first place?  This is something virtually all sunbelt cities offer that northern cities don't, and mansions in northern cities start at $10M.

2) He's coming from Long Island.  Why the hell would he live "in the city" when a) there is no city, and b) there is a beach?  He's moving to the beach.

2A) If he has kids and does not want to live in a mansion in the city, he'll move to a gated community in ICW or SJC.  He's moving out of the cold and extreme taxes and congestion, so of course he'll want the opposite of what he has put up with so long, and he believes it is best for his wife and kids.


The types of people who move to JG have to be local types and 1st time home buyers.  It just has to be.  Maybe some transplant artists who are priced out of larger cities.  I just worry there is an extreme dearth of buyers of urban condos and renters of urban units, most of which have to be priced above what Jax can afford.  Atlanta just upped its pricing of new construction intown apartments to minimum $2/SF/mo - base, which means luxury apartments are going to have to be a lot more if new construction.  That's a minimum of $2Kish for a 2 bedroom for all new construction (which includes a lot of rehab).

[simms3]

I heard a few years ago that some buyers at 1661 were unhappy with the finishes - has anyone else heard anything about that or was some of that fixed?

Have heard this.

[MusicMan]

If you bought at 1661 Riverside in the first 2 years then you are most likely seriously upside down on your loan, so I am not sure I would qualify that as a "success ."

Now units there go for right at $200,000, when they were almost double that (as I recall) when it came on the market.

Perhaps renting 20% of the units at JG would be a good idea. Get some warm bodies in there, but not too many
in order to allow prospective buyers to continue to get financing.

[ben says]

Success of 1661 is probably because it was the only major and still is the only major project of its type in the whole darn city, and its location is great.  Inventory is so limited and so low you would think JG would be doing better, but it's not the case.  My mother is an agent in the Avondale Prudential office and frequently acts as site agent for JG.  I haven't asked her about it, but I could.  She has also done Peninsula and other condo developments around town - maybe it's time I asked.

The prices are super cheap for what you get, and that area is a very quiet peaceful area and you have access to 13 Gypsies/Bold Bean - convenient.

In 12 months only 38 condos in 3 large neighborhoods sold.  That's not a really good sign.  You can bet many were resales at Villa Riva (my parents have pondered that building) and the condos along the river in Avondale, Ortega, and Riverside.  The fact that only 4 were over "600K" is also telling.  People blast me for pointing out that Jacksonville is not a wealthy city - it's not.  If people are having a hard time putting down 5-20% for a $150K 2 bedroom in JG, it's either because they don't have enough money or there aren't enough people who want the urban condo lifestyle or loft lifestyle in Jacksonville.  Either way does not bode well in the long run for projects like the 2 proposed in Brooklyn or any urban projects for that matter.

Also, per loan covenants and per just operational sense, the developer usually covers the HOA deficit until sold out.  It's not like because there are only 3 people living there they must pay $10,000/month each to cover the unsold units - and the lender may only do so as part of a draw on a construction loan.  It just depends.

Aside from any issues with the units themselves, or the location (which I think is good, though will only appeal to people who can stand living near some rundown houses), the place has a massive yard with mature trees all around it.  I would think it would be good for kids, too.  Single mom with 1-2 kids or newly weds with a baby...seems like a decent fit.

I agree that Jacksonville is not a wealthy city. That being said, I think it's more a issue of location. Most of the people I meet on a day to do basis don't even know what 13 Gypsies/Bold Bean is, let alone where it is. So, while it may be a fantastic location for us, I'm not sure (outside of MetroJax forum followers and preexisting Riverside residents) many people want what JG is offering: (nice) condos in an untested neighborhood, close to "the bad side of town" and I-10, with some shabby houses to boot.

And might I point out there are some obstacles facing Jacksonville to urbanizing.  Your transplant from Long Island just sold his tiny house for $895K and is moving down.  He's moving from a much more urban place with old established town centers and trains into the city.  He may be moving from something similar to JG without a yard and without mature live oaks all around it.  When he comes down, he's going to choose between 2 lifestyles:

1) He'll want to be in the city.  He can afford 10 units at JG, but would never move there.  Why live in a smaller space when in Jacksonville he can afford a mansion or 3 bedroom luxury condo in the city?  And who ever heard of mansions with acre yards "in the city" in the first place?  This is something virtually all sunbelt cities offer that northern cities don't, and mansions in northern cities start at $10M.

2) He's coming from Long Island.  Why the hell would he live "in the city" when a) there is no city, and b) there is a beach?  He's moving to the beach.

2A) If he has kids and does not want to live in a mansion in the city, he'll move to a gated community in ICW or SJC.  He's moving out of the cold and extreme taxes and congestion, so of course he'll want the opposite of what he has put up with so long, and he believes it is best for his wife and kids.


The types of people who move to JG have to be local types and 1st time home buyers.  It just has to be.  Maybe some transplant artists who are priced out of larger cities.  I just worry there is an extreme dearth of buyers of urban condos and renters of urban units, most of which have to be priced above what Jax can afford.  Atlanta just upped its pricing of new construction intown apartments to minimum $2/SF/mo - base, which means luxury apartments are going to have to be a lot more if new construction.  That's a minimum of $2Kish for a 2 bedroom for all new construction (which includes a lot of rehab).

Considering I know a good amount of people that fit your description (literally, from Long Island), you're right. My fiancé is from Long Island, and a few of her family friends want to cash in their assets up north and get something on the river/on the beach down here. Not to mention Long Island is one decentralized mess, and "the city" is at minimum 1/2-1 hour from most locations.

[Dapperdan]

I would still be wary of any new condo purchases right now. You have a strong likeliehood that you will most definitely lose money on them at least short term.  I did a quick search and I see condos all over Jacksonville  from 65k to 100k for very decent units on up. I see one in Oakleaf for  45k, actually. I am assuming that is a bankruptcy. You will have to get rid of this glut of condos, and I admit I am looking at ones way out on the suburbs too, but people will buy these first and bring down condo prices in general. I don't see this changing anytime soon, so that is why I think that you will loose value on your property almost immediately unless you are buying in at these rock bottom prices. Now if you hold onto your unit ( that just sounds dirty) for a while, and I am not expert at all, but for maybe 10 years, then you would likely see it turn back around.

[Tacachale]

I've heard more or less what Simms has said regarding the John Gorrie. From the "horse's mouth once removed" so to speak, my understanding is that they feel their trouble is due to (1) the already depressed market, which has caused condo prices to drop far beyond what they can feasibly do (2) the price point/location, compared to what you can get for a similar price in other locations (I think it's a good location, but the type of people willing to shell out this kind of money for lofts evidently disagree), and (3) the fact that the people who are interested (often young folks starting out) have had trouble with the financing.

Not much they can do about 1 or even 2 right now, but I understand 3 may be getting somewhat better.

[ben says]

I've heard more or less what Simms has said regarding the John Gorrie. From the "horse's mouth once removed" so to speak, my understanding is that they feel their trouble is due to (1) the already depressed market, which has caused condo prices to drop far beyond what they can feasibly do (2) the price point/location, compared to what you can get for a similar price in other locations (I think it's a good location, but the type of people willing to shell out this kind of money for lofts evidently disagree), and (3) the fact that the people who are interested (often young folks starting out) have had trouble with the financing.

Not much they can do about 1 or even 2 right now, but I understand 3 may be getting somewhat better.

Getting better, but I'm not sure how quick. My sister just moved from 1661 to The Strand. Tried to get a place at JG, but financially didn't work out.

[Springfield Chicken]

I realize this is comparing apples or oranges, but it does illustrate the choices buyers have right now.  In the Southside area there are 80 condos for sale under $75,000.  We are seeing the ones that still have financing available getting snapped up quickly.  The fact that John Gorrie isn't selling is in part because buyers are seeing better values elsewhere and they are willing to forego the charm and ambiance in favor of a perceived "steal" elsewhere.  Not to mention the fact that you can get a house in Riverside for almost the same price as a condo.  Right now there are 12 houses under $140,000.

[mtraininjax]

JG site agent is now part time. They have sold 5 units so far. Delores Weaver is also assisting with sales efforts, she has an office there. There used to be great financing from Everbank with something like 5% down, but they have since pulled that, and it is presumed that the Everbank deal was how these 5 qualified for the purchases. As others have stated the purchasing has gotten much tougher of late.

[sdmjax]

I would love to buy there. It is so difficult to get in there? The agent is never there and the telephone is never answered...I also wonder why they did not put in a pool? I know Good Shepherd has a pool but seriously there are very few amentities for the building itself...It is sad to see such a beatiful building so empty...

[ben says]

I would love to buy there. It is so difficult to get in there? The agent is never there and the telephone is never answered...I also wonder why they did not put in a pool? I know Good Shepherd has a pool but seriously there are very few amentities for the building itself...It is sad to see such a beatiful building so empty...

They've shot themselves in the foot, I think, by not allowing rentals. I know a dozen people who would gladly rent there. Not sure about the pool. I've been inside, and I don't know where they'd put it. The place has a really weird layout, I'll say that. The ones facing Stockton are a nice use of space, but I'm not so sure about the more interior spaces.

[JFman00]

A unit was recently bought and immediately put up for rent. Listing came down within a week.

[FSBA]

I went to look at a few condos there recently but I came away unimpressed. For a building that has such character it is a remarkably sterile atmosphere, even if it had the warm bodies for it. The financing isn't an issue for me it is simply that the building doesn't provide anything. Not to mention I looked at 2 other condos off of St.Johns ave the same day. They offered similar amenities but were priced under $80,000.

The condo market in Jacksonville is still in the gutter and considering there are is an ever growing glut of foreclosed ones coming back on the market it won't get better anytime soon.

[JFman00]

I will say for the HOA, you don't get a lot. I personally would be happy to forego amenities for a lower HOA but there's not much they can cut.