First Baptist Church: Opinions? Now vs the Past.

[thekillingwax]

I was a member from age 5-19 and worked there for a few years and the rumors that fly around about FBC still amuse me. There aren't any scary secrets, dark mysterious cabals or whatever else people say. It's a church. It's a really big church. Some of the people there are kinda jerks, most of the people there I encountered were kind, loving people. They know it's a giant church, they use the classes and groups to try and get folks to know each other on a more personal level.

It's not perfect, I don't agree with everything they preach but I honestly do think they've done more good than bad. A lot of people expect the inner-workings there to be a bit like making sausage but people focused on their job, most seemed to really enjoy it and it was probably the most drama-free workplace I've seen.

Towards the end, Homer really got nutty about lighthouses. Everything needed lighthouses. That was weird. I think the unofficial name of the one on the parking garage was the "Homer-Dome Bum Beacon".

[thelakelander]

What was the deal with the lighthouses?  Isn't the core function of a lighthouse to keep people away?

[Ocklawaha]

What was the deal with the lighthouses?  Isn't the core function of a lighthouse to keep people away?

Not really Lake, the lighthouse is a navigation aid which is more of a homing beacon then it is a 'keep away' warning. Each light house has a unique beacon cycle and the charts are marked as such. For example the Amelia Island chart shows a lighthouse 107' feet high, with a 7 second rotation, visible at 19 nautical miles. In theory a ship navigating by the stars could lock onto that light and 'feel' their way to the mouth of the Amelia River and Port of Fernandina. This would not be confused with the Mayport or San Sebastian (Anastasia Island) lights, as they would have different characteristics.

In conjunction with horns, bells, whistles, and lighted buoys, once the light house is lined up, it's fairly easy to spot the red and green beacons of the channel markers. So even though there are some 'keep away' lights at isolated shoals or rocks, tie it all together and it all works together for good.

One of the number one theory's in the tragic sinking of the famed Edmond Fitzgerald, was that in the severe storm, they struck a rocky shoal that was NOT marked on American Charts or protected by a navigation light. In a sense the ship bottomed out while loaded with iron pellets and cracked open like an egg. Oddly the Canadian charts all located the shoal. You can bet that this situation has changed to protect the ships there today. Nothing like a folk ballad to focus attention on something. Meanwhile where are the men of the Fitzgerald memorialized? Where else, Mariners' Church of Detroit (Free and Independent) a church adhering to Anglican liturgical traditions located at 170 East Jefferson Avenue in Detroit, Michigan. This Gothic Revival church dates to the 1840's and this brings our conversation full circle back to THE LIGHT.

http://www.last.fm/music/Gordon+Lightfoot/_/The+Wreck+of+the+Edmund+Fitzgerald

[thelakelander]

What's the religious connection?

[Ocklawaha]

I modified my post in anticipation of your recent comment. Of course I'm pretty sure, You, Stephen and I, realize the connection is 'The Guiding Light' or 'Light of This World' is more then a man made building. It is fairly easy to build a connection between the various forms of way showing lights.

[Anti redneck]

I rest my case.

[Garden guy]

Well by all means, go ahead and say it and see exactly how much traction you get.  Unlike some, Im a pretty open book and I probably don't have to defend my progressive, or for that matter, my philosophical beliefs.  There are almost thirty thousand of my posts on this forum which don't leave much doubt about where I stand on things.

However, I also believe in principal over partisanship and accuracy over propaganda.

I don't think anyone should be ridiculed or dehumanized or scapegoated on the basis of their religious beliefs.  But rather on their actions.  All of us are individuals, and we all deserve common courtesy and respect. 

If I despise idealogues (and I do) then I cannot, in good conscience---much less with any self respect---turn around and behave like an idealogue.  If I despise bigotry and bullying, then why on earth would I be interested in falsely demonizng and depersonalizing people who simply believe differently than myself.

Also, its just not good policy, nor is it a sound framework for getting at the truth.  If you are willing to believe any accusation about someone based on whether or not you agree with some part of their philosophy, then you are setting yourself up to be very deceived about the world around you.

And if all of your perceptions of the world are based on lies, distortions, and thoughtless slander, then how on earth can you come up with any solutions to the things that bother you?

Apparently Gardenguy can demand openmindedness all day long, while relentlessly attacking people who disagree with him.  And I suppose that works for him.

But it doesnt work for me, and from what experience I have with public opinion, it doesnt work with the vast majority of thinking people.

Have some of the former pastors of first baptist been closed minded, intolerant bullies?

Yes.  Jerry Vines, springs to mind.

But the church paid dearly for his pastorship.

He followed a very sweet, very beloved man, Dr. Homer Lindsey who grew the church from less than 2 thousand to more than 20 thousand over the course of his life time.

Was Dr. Lindsey a prude?  Did he lead a narrow lifestyle?  Was his message centered on a puritanized vision of community and personal behavior.  Sure.  Welcome to America, friends.  Weve had Puritans for a long time now, and seem to be getting along all the same.  (Thanks for the Turkey on Thanksgiving, incidentally, oh point proving puritans of long ago.)

Apparently most of those 20 thousand Baptists agreed with your own assessment, non redneck.  When Dr. Vines began preaching his message of intolerance, judgement, and narrowmindedness as opposed to narrowliving, the congregation dwindled to less than 8 thousand and is presently less than that.

Does it surprise you that the overwhelming majority of the (mostly former) members of First Baptist agree with you?

The First Baptist Blogger, incidentally is a partisan for the return of Doctor Vines.  Not a critic of baptist doctrine or any of the things that you would find odious about 'Baptistness'  Not by a long shot.  In fact he would prefer a return to the days of Dr. Vines---not a change in Baptist protocol.

There are larger issues at play in that whole rotten scenario than have ever been publicly discussed, and we haven't wanted to empower any side of that conversation by encouraging or covering any of it.

But this issue of whether or not First Baptist is a detriment to downtown is seriously a red herring.

It was Fitzhugh Powell that shut down the downtown scene back in the seventies and eighties.  It was in response to the Southern Fried Rock movement and the general anti hippie hysteria.  Fitzhugh was not a member of First Baptist.

It was Jack Diamond who initiated a long campaign of dynamiting historic buildings out of the ground to 'clear the way' for new development (that never materialized) and to make downtown Jacksonville more "paris' like through the addition of a massive downtown parkland called the 'downtown seam'.

Jack Diamond was not a member of First Baptist.

The list truly goes on and on.

You hear about First Baptist closing down nightclubs.  In almost every case it is usually a competing nightclub that has been calling in complaints---not First Baptist.

You hear accusations that First Baptist has secretly bought up a bunch of liquor liscenses in order to keep them from being used.  Absolutely not true.

You hear about first baptist closing down businesses that they don't agree with.  Again, not true.

The only places that I know of that ever had trouble with a religious group that 'closed them down' never involved First Baptist. 

One was Lee Harvey, the Artist.  His "Lee Harvey Gallery" over in five points was the subject of intense pressure from cops, code enforcement and city pressure.  It was driven by Simon Smith and funded by WW Gay and led to a statewide ridicule session about 'obscene art'.

There was a church involved.  But it wasnt First Baptist.  It was Riverside Presbyterian.

Then there was the firebombing of the Five Points Theatre over the showing of "Hail Mary".  That was a Catholic group.

Its almost impossible to get First Baptist involved in any kind of protest.  Trust me, I know from multiple disappointing experiences while trying to drum up pubicity for naked poetry readings, irreligious art shows and controversial theatre performances.  The consistent no-show was always first baptist.

My point is that the problem with this city is not First Baptist (nor has it ever been).  Its a lot of other things.  And those things need to be solved.

Which you cant do by simply bashing first baptist.

Much as you might wish otherwise.

With all of that maddness said...just sounds like you've been on the payrol since childhood. i kicked the bad habits of listening to pompus  blow hards many years ago. I grew up and learned the church is nothing but a place for people ro kiss eachothers ass and take ur money for the preachers new car and girlfriend...so your church hold nothing special

[BridgeTroll]

i kicked the bad habits of listening to pompus  blow hards many years ago.

Yet we are supposed to listen to YOU?? 

[Ocklawaha]

... i kicked the bad habits of listening to pompus  blow hards

I'm impressed, what an intellectual approach condemning all churches and all believers in one prejudiced statement. It's becoming obvious that you have little interest in an academic discussion. Your premise that all churches are equally evil could only be made if you had indeed visited all churches. Tell you what Garden Guy, I'd like to invite you to meet me at a Jacksonville church of your choice, I'm betting Stephendare would be willing to join us.

So why would anyone want to go to church? IMO in life's journey faith is nourishment, virtuous deeds are a shelter, wisdom is the light by day and right mindfulness is the protection by night. If a man lives a pure life, nothing can destroy him. Consider that the soul is  immortal and we spend our lives trying to train it to detach from the body.

Not to lead you into despair, but at some point in life, one must consider death, and that is REALLY what church is all about. Death is one of two things... Either it is annihilation, and the dead have no consciousness of anything; or, as we are told, it is really a change: a migration of the soul from one place to another. No one knows whether death may not even turn out to be the greatest blessings of human beings. And yet people fear it as if they knew for certain it is the greatest evil. Garden Guy, do you or anti redneck ever noticed that you cannot prove a negative?

...so your church hold nothing special

I believe we may be getting to the bottom of your problem!

OCKLAWAHA

[I-10east]

Thank you Stephen for setting the record straight concerning FBC's 'supposed' stranglehold on everything that is DT Jacksonville. All of that fear mongering against FBC was getting ridiculous, and believe me, I never had any kinda affiliation with that church at all. It's so sad that the FBC takeover rumors (used to shame Jax) still work on alot of Natl' posts all over the country; Similar to misconceptions about the Jaguars organization. 

[civil42806]

What was the deal with the lighthouses?  Isn't the core function of a lighthouse to keep people away?

Well FBC did irk me when they built the light house and parking downtown, paved over my normal parking spot when I was working in the old JEA building.  But other than that always found members pretty warm and friendly.

[duvaldude08]

Yeah I agree with everyone, its time for this to come to an end. At this point, there is no rift between the city and FBC. And Stephen is right, if it wasnt for FBC downtown would look worse than what it does. Think of all those building they won and occupy being empty??

[Garden guy]

You guys are fucking hilarious saying that downtown is better with fbc....thats the biggest line of bullsit ive ever heard. That group has helped big time to keep this city in the 1940's.

[Timkin]

 
I have one thing to say ..........


                                                                   

[Timkin]

I think downtown was pretty thriving in the 1940's .    Wasn't there but I'm thinking it was !