SKYWAY RIDERSHIP DOUBLES...WE TOLD YOU SO JTA!

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it

Let me guess..... 'Due to low ridership numbers'?

I did a little research and if you're trying to get from Rosa Park to the Farmer's market - you should have ZERO issues.

3 Busses go there, B7 (40 min.), B9 (50min) & BST (60 min)

If you want to go in the morning, your options are:

8:28 (B7), 8:39 (B9), 8:43 (BST), 9:09 (B7), 9:33 (BST), 9:39 (B9), 9:49 (B7), 10:23, (BST), 10:28 (B7), 10:39 (B9)

Seems like you've got plenty of options. 

[jcjohnpaint]

the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it

Yeah and that totally defeats the purpose of what something like a trolly is supposed to accomplish- especially if JTA is using this to test if people would be interested in a streetcar.  If I had to wait an hour for anything I would not stick around.  Most people don't have that kind of time.  The time wait should be aprox 10 give or take.  Kind of like making the skyway miserable to use and then ask why no one uses it. 

[thelakelander]

JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar.  They have no intentions of doing a streetcar and using rubber wheeled trolleys wouldn't provide an accurate test anyway (ridership or economic development, which would be more important).  They'd probably be better off taking it out and coordinating it with a local bus route using Beaver Street.

[Coolyfett]

For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.

San Marco? Riverside & Springfield near Shands & 8th would bring in way more riders. San Marco would need to be last behind, Sports Complex, Riverside & Springfield.

[exnewsman]

JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar.  They have no intentions of doing a streetcar

Curious why you would say that considering the feasibility study that was done... Also - isn't JTA's regional planner pushing hard for this? According to Blaylock everything is on the table - streetcar, commuter rail, high speed rail, BRT, Skyway.

[dougskiles]

For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.

San Marco? Riverside & Springfield near Shands & 8th would bring in way more riders. San Marco would need to be last behind, Sports Complex, Riverside & Springfield.

I believe the next expansion will be determined by development potential along the route.  It will likely take a new project that promises to bring more riders and potentially helps fund the expansion.  I am biased, but feel that the route to Atlantic Blvd in San Marco offers the most potential.

[JeffreyS]

That's why Brooklyn is the most likely first expansion. I guess the biggest reason is all you would need is access sin
to the current platform.

[thelakelander]

JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar.  They have no intentions of doing a streetcar

Curious why you would say that considering the feasibility study that was done... Also - isn't JTA's regional planner pushing hard for this? According to Blaylock everything is on the table - streetcar, commuter rail, high speed rail, BRT, Skyway.

Because JTA's actions are more than proof that the streetcar isn't a high priority with them.  Although they did a prefeasibility study a few years ago, there's been little to no mention of it from JTA since.  The majority of news coming out of JTA has revolved around becoming a regional transportation authority, finding money to do more road projects, BRT, the JRTC, and eventually doing another commuter rail study.

Also, the last time the streetcar was mentioned in the paper, Blaylock pretty much stated it wasn't a priority.

Under a mobility plan approved by City Council this year, the city could assess a user fee on new development that would help pay for this. An implementing ordinance must still pass council. It was introduced last week and is expected to be voted on in September, Harding said.

The user fee would be based on how many more cars would be on the roads because of the new development.
The mobility plan recommends a trolley that would run from downtown to Five Points, then to King Street in Riverside. A trolley would also run from downtown to the area around Shands Jacksonville.

It is estimated that the user fee, if allocated for this purpose, would pay for all of the streetcars from downtown to King Street, and half of the cost of building it to Shands.
It's not clear what streets would be used.

City Planning Director Bill Killingsworth said the city would build the streetcar, then turn it over to Jacksonville Transportation Authority to run.

JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock said a streetcar trolley could replace the buses that look like trolleys that now take people from the downtown into Riverside and Avondale.

Davis and Mann argue that a fixed-route streetcar system with a track is better than the existing buses. A streetcar will attract economic development, encourage people to live and work downtown, and get cars off the road, they say.

But Blaylock, who was also on the transition committee, cautions that Brown will have limited dollars.
"Improving the port will be the No. 1 priority," Blaylock said, "and there's not a lot of money for infrastructure projects right now."

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-08-15/story/mayors-team-suggests-trolley-system-jacksonville#comment-455306

I put this quote in bold because I found it shocking that Mr. Blaylock would make such a statement when he knows these things come from separate financial pots and that they have little to nothing to do with one another.  However, such a statement can clearly confuse those who may not be aware of the various financial pots in a manner were they fall in opposition to the streetcar.  If we don't want to see a streetcar up and running before the end of this decade, I'm in belief it will have to be done without JTA playing a leading role.

[Ocklawaha]

the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it

Let me guess..... 'Due to low ridership numbers'?

I did a little research and if you're trying to get from Rosa Park to the Farmer's market - you should have ZERO issues.

3 Busses go there, B7 (40 min.), B9 (50min) & BST (60 min)

If you want to go in the morning, your options are:

8:28 (B7), 8:39 (B9), 8:43 (BST), 9:09 (B7), 9:33 (BST), 9:39 (B9), 9:49 (B7), 10:23, (BST), 10:28 (B7), 10:39 (B9)

Seems like you've got plenty of options.

Sorry you got confused WestsideNONredneck, my background is transportation...in fact in every single mode, I'd never EVER suggest that the Farm Market would be a superior route, merely a jumping off spot for pushing off into NW JAX perhaps in the general direction of Edward Waters.  The Skyway was NEVER DESIGNED TO TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES, it's just NOT rapid transit, though a larger scale monorail possibly using the same infrastructure could actually serve that need. Over short 2-4 mile distances, the Skyway's singular advantage is moving above the traffic in the densest areas, it is capable of 50 mph, and has notable G-force acceleration of a streetcar. The Skyway also has a horrendous price AS-BUILT, and though certain economic steps could probably cut those costs down to somewhere around that of dedicated BRT/Light Rail, it would probably remain our more costly choice. IF, (note that's a huge IF) we ever got mass transit management, managing our mass transit, we might actually consider building a multi-modal system that makes some sense and has connectivity. Right now, TODAY, we have the US HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSPORTATION SUB-COMMITTEE in our vest pocket, the Chairman LOVES the SKYWAY for better or worse. I'm simply tossing out what I'd be asking for as a phased expansion, trouble is of course JTA is asking for... NOTHING! And probably never will. Also I promote my concepts as multi-modal, because when one travels to world class cities, the one thing they'll almost always have in common is a mix of transit modes, each serving and doing what it does best in the best location for that particular mode.

the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it

Yeah and that totally defeats the purpose of what something like a trolly is supposed to accomplish- especially if JTA is using this to test if people would be interested in a streetcar.  If I had to wait an hour for anything I would not stick around.  Most people don't have that kind of time.  The time wait should be aprox 10 give or take.  Kind of like making the skyway miserable to use and then ask why no one uses it.

You CAN NOT use a bus (regardless of whatever you want to call it) to test the feasibility of a streetcar line. Trying to use a bus in a streetcar study is like trying to study a high speed rail line with bicycles. Whole different animal.' In the one place where a PCT-POTATO-CHIP-TRUCK-THINKS-ITS-A-TROLLEY has gone head to head with a real streetcar, (Tucson) the streetcar blew the bus ridership out of the water...er...desert.

Starting on April 17, 1993, Tucson unwittingly began a test of whether riders prefer genuine streetcars or rubber-tired faux trolleys. The electric choice seems a clear winner. During May, the first full month of operation, three times as many riders paid four times as much to ride half as far in the newly restored rail line than they would have paid to ride a modern “faux trolley” PCT bus.

A ride on the historic line costs one dollar while the SunTran shuttle bus fare is twenty-five cents. The streetcar line is only one mile in length while the bus route is about two miles and connects more activity centers including downtown Tucson and the convention center. Further discouraging riders, the streetcar only runs three days a week while the bus runs six days.

Although the streetcar duplicated the university end of the bus route, operating hours are such that Saturday daytime is the only period during the week that the two modes directly compete. Streetcar operating hours were Friday, 6 P.M. to midnight; Saturday, 10A.M. to midnight; and Sunday, noon to 6 P.M. The dressed-up buses operated Monday through Saturday, daytime only. Pretty damn convincing to anyone but FDOT, JTA, COJ...etc.

For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.

San Marco? Riverside & Springfield near Shand's & 8th would bring in way more riders. San Marco would need to be last behind, Sports Complex, Riverside & Springfield.

Actually San Marco, would likely be the heaviest utilized route if we discounted the large number of sports and event fans that would occasionally flood the stadium extension and bump up it's ridership. Day to day usage from San Marco at Atlantic and the FEC RY, would explode when commuter rail comes on line. Well over 10,000 people work in or around the south bank Riverwalk, and currently the only real access they have is through the maze JTA has created with FREEways. Commuter rail would be a game changer IF the Skyway platform was at the surface (easily done and DONE on other monorails such as Disney Tokyo) it would permit a cross-platform transfer from trains to and from the Southside all the way to St. Augustine. San Marco FIRST, would have the singular effect of finally giving the Skyway a residential anchor, boutique shopping and eateries, public recreation facilities, and contain it all within a dense urban area.

JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar.  They have no intentions of doing a streetcar

Curious why you would say that considering the feasibility study that was done... Also - isn't JTA's regional planner pushing hard for this? According to Blaylock everything is on the table - streetcar, commuter rail, high speed rail, BRT, Skyway.

JTA completely screwed the pooch with the empty multi-million dollar empty garage on the Southbank. The Skyway was the worst of all choices when they convinced the city that by 2012 we'd be riding speeding monorails to Jacksonville Beach. Amazingly the agency convinced the city and FDOT that Bus Rapid Transit was just like rail - only cheaper, using statements like "The people love buses, they hate rail." In their commuter rail plans, they advanced the idea of Amtrak and the Southside line using the tracks on the south side of the Prime Osborn, but the west and north side line near Bay Street next to the PO parking lot! Just a 4 block walk to change trains! All during the 1980's they launched into a disinformation campaign against all things rail to boost their status as a highway and Skyway builder. This is the same authority that plans to build "a transportation center" scattered over 5 buildings and more real estate then the Vatican, a sovereign state. Finally in tiny employment centers like the Cecil Commerce Center, and over at NAS Jax, they eliminated all through service and are now forcing their passenger to transfer to any one of 6 different routes. So even if the JTA director fell on his hands and knees and begged to build and operate our streetcars, my gut feeling is keep it out of their hands, they'll only screw it up. They have certainly proved over a long term that they are no friend of rail, it will take more then a little convincing for me to believe otherwise. In short, beware, JTA speaks with forked tongue Kemosabe.

[jcjohnpaint]

I was going over the mobility plan page on here.  What an amazing and genius piece of planning.  I can see how the moratorium on the fee will just eliminate the foundation of the mobility plan.  Without the fee it seems like the plan does not exist.  What a shame, but if I might ask.  Are most of our leaders for the mobility plan?  I mean I figure they voted on it right?  If one was to remove the fee they would remove the mobility plan.  What is the chance the moratorium will last?  Were is JTA on commuter rail?  What happened after the feasibility study?  Sorry for all the questions, but I would really like to know.

[Tacachale]

^A lot of our leaders are for the mobility plan. However, the Council unanimously approved a 1-year moratorium on implementing the fee that would make it possible, in an effort to remove potential restrictions growth (and therefore jobs) in this down economy. Some of the smarter ones have expressed that they do not want to extend the moratorium. Some of the dumber ones were never for the plan at all. Take all this as you will.

[cline]

There is a slim chance the mobility fee will ever be put into practice.  Too much outside "influence".

[thelakelander]

Are most of our leaders for the mobility plan?

In general?  Yes, I believe so.  The mobility fee basically replaced the concurrency program we already had in place.  However, it was felt by the council that eliminating the fee for a year might stimulate more short term construction jobs to help our local economy.

What is the chance the moratorium will last?

It is supposed to sunset before the end of this year.  Whether it is extended or allowed to sunset depends on the will of the community verses the development community on the decisions of the council.

Were is JTA on commuter rail?

I believe they are moving forward with an alternative analysis study to determine what segment of their commuter rail plan should be built first.

What happened after the feasibility study?

The streetcar study was a "PRE" feasibility study.  It basically confirmed what most urbanist already knew.....it's worth diving into in greater detail.  However, realistically speaking, economic development will be the best thing a streetcar provides for Jacksonville but that's not JTA's central purpose.  Thus, it's not as high a priority as finding money to build more roads, get BRT off the ground, and becoming a regional transportation authority.

[peestandingup]

Yeah, if they were serious about it, then they wouldn't be axing it right off the bat. Don't let the "moratorium" wording BS fool you. They'll come up with an excuse every year.

Now, if they made it "moratorium-proof", then you'd know it was for real.

[thelakelander]

There is a slim chance the mobility fee will ever be put into practice.  Too much outside "influence".

I believe at some point it will be back.  We simply don't have the money now to maintain and expand our infrastructure and if the fee/concurrency disappears, it's only going to get worse.  Thus, we'll get to the point very soon where we'll see a raise in taxes, the return of impact fees like the mobility fee, or both.