Background Story Behind JTA Greyhound Terminal Location?

[thelakelander]

Ever wonder how ideas that seem illogical today, have evolved overtime? I do, which is why I like to research history, which helps me better understand the present to better prepare for the future.

Anyway, here is an interesting article I came across while researching another topic.  It appears that Greyhound was originally supposed to located at the Jacksonville Terminal along with Amtrak.  Needless to say, it appears that we decided it would be bad for the convention center business, which led to the relocation of this transportation mode to the north.  Hopefully, this will put the illogical argument of Greyhound demanding to be that far north from the rest of the complex to rest:

Greyhound not a good fit in joint hub plan Too much in one spot could serve to deter conventioneers

The Florida Times-Union - Monday, August 27, 2001
Author: David Bauerlein, Times-Union staff writer

The ticket windows in historic Jacksonville Terminal, now a part of the Prime Osborn Convention Center, might regain their original use if Amtrak moves its station downtown.

But Greyhound passengers won't be catching the bus at the convention center. The latest, revised plan for building the Jacksonville Transportation Center would put Greyhound a couple of blocks away from the convention center, not inside it.

The shift is part of a study that is charting a way to bring multiple means of travel -- train, bus, car, the Skyway monorail and perhaps someday light rail -- together in a compact area where people can easily switch from one kind of transportation to another.

"I think the timing for it has never been better," said City Councilwoman Elaine Brown, who has championed the proposal since 1993, when former Mayor Ed Austin asked her to serve on a citizen committee about moving the Amtrak station to downtown.

But incorporating transit into the convention center runs the risk of turning off conventioneers when they compare Jacksonville to other cities in the hyper-competitive convention business.

"I do think there is a way to do it, but the way is very narrow," said Kitty Ratcliffe, president of Jacksonville and the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau.

The state Department of Transportation previously has estimated it would cost $56 million to move both Amtrak and Greyhound to the convention center, a steep sum that would require a combination of state, federal and local funding. State officials don't have an updated estimate for what it would cost in the revised site plan where Greyhound isn't in the convention center. Amtrak is the most costly portion because it would require extensive work on the Florida East Coast Railroad tracks that run along the convention center.

The Jacksonville Terminal station opened in 1919, and its vaulted ceiling, high as a cathedral's, is a reminder of the era when the city was a major destination for tourists traveling to Florida by rail. At its peak, up to 20,000 people and 142 trains passed through the station daily, according to a historical marker at the convention center. In Brown's office at City Hall, a framed picture on the wall shows a black-and-white shot of the station with the parking lot full of Model-T cars and a streetcar running past it.

Amtrak doesn't generate nearly as much ridership in an era of airplane travel, but Brown notes that Amtrak is seeking to open a Jacksonville to Miami route down the Florida coast, including stops at St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. Ultimately, Brown said Jacksonville must plan for other kinds of travel besides the automobile as the city grows and roads fill up with cars.

The latest site plan for the transportation center comes a year after the state transportation department showed plans at a public hearing in June 2000 that showed both Amtrak and Greyhound with stations in the convention center.

Since then, Greyhound has decided it needs more room than the previous plan would have allowed in the convention center, and state historic preservation officials raised concerns about all the buses with their exhaust operating so close to the old station, said Craig Teal, project manager for the transportation department.

Tourism officials also have raised red flags about having too much transit activity in the Prime Osborn. In a convention center analysis for the visitors bureau, Strategic Advisory Group met with convention planners for state and national groups and asked, among other things, whether a transportation center in the building would make them less likely to book conventions in Jacksonville.

"The bottom line is that multimodal [transit operations] and a convention center don't mix," said Jeff Sachs, managing partner for Strategic Advisory Group. "People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."

But, if only the Amtrak station were in the convention center, that might change how convention planners react and it would be worthwhile to show them the latest proposal, he said.

"If that's still an issue for too high a percentage, don't do it," he said. "I don't want to throw out any idea. This could really be a unique feature for Jacksonville in the end."

Now there are too many egos involved in seriously going back and reconsidering past actions, but simply removing the convention center from the mix eliminates the argument that led to the illogical Greyhound site JTA is rushing to construct along Adams Street.  Plus, we all know (whether we want to admit it or not) that the convention center will end up next to the Hyatt.

[JeffreyS]

This is backward.  You know what I like about the times St. Louis is chosen over Chicago for our Mid West convention?  The fact that you can get off the train at the convention site.  Chicago transit blows St. Louis out of the water except that the train runs to the convention center.  So I can stay by the airport pr downtown and easily attend the convention.   Chicago you have to stay downtown and cab it.

[Ocklawaha]

But Greyhound passengers won't be catching the bus at the convention center. The latest, revised plan for building the Jacksonville Transportation Center would put Greyhound a couple of blocks away from the convention center, not inside it.

Remember folks you read it here, THE REVISED PLAN FOR BUILDING THE JACKSONVILLE TRANSPORTATION CENTER WOULD PUT GREYHOUND A COUPLE OF BLOCKS AWAY! Thus, as MJ has been screaming all along, it will NOT be a true transportation center and will fail to accomplish any of the goals of multi-modalism.

The shift is part of a study that is charting a way to bring multiple means of travel -- train, bus, car, the Skyway monorail and perhaps someday light rail -- together in a compact area where people can easily switch from one kind of transportation to another.

The shift is charting a way to PREVENT bringing multiple means of travel together in a compact area.

But incorporating transit into the convention center runs the risk of turning off conventioneers when they compare Jacksonville to other cities in the hyper-competitive convention business.

It is true that somebody, somewhere might be turned off but it won't be anyone cosmopolitan enough to plan a convention. Other cities have located their transit, Amtrak, or multimodal stations right in, under or across the street from their convention centers and God knows we don't want to be on the same level as these:

DALLAS
SEATTLE
PORTLAND
SAN DIEGO
BOSTON
LAS VEGAS
ST LOUIS
WASHINGTON
(and many more)

State officials don't have an updated estimate for what it would cost in the revised site plan where Greyhound isn't in the convention center.

The cost is far above and beyond dollars, in fact it amounts to sense (pun intended) it adds up to us NEVER having a functional transportation center.

At its peak, up to 20,000 people and 142 trains passed through the station daily.

But the geniuses at FDOT and JTA will tell you they 'need the room' for all of those train and bus passengers... 2 trains and a couple dozen buses full. Feel that warm yellow liquid running down your leg? Don't worry, JTA says its just rain...

Jacksonville must plan for other kinds of travel besides the automobile as the city grows and roads fill up with cars.

Leave it to our highway planners, playing mass transit 'Authority,' to screw this opportunity for us. Remember Jacksonville, once Greyhound is excluded, the 3-legged stool called the JRTC collapses with it.

Since then, Greyhound has decided it needs more room than the previous plan would have allowed in the convention center...

So all by themselves, Greyhound suddenly wants out of an opportunity to have 70,728 Amtrak passengers walking past their ticket counters looking for ways to get to Lake City, St. Augustine, Valdosta, Gainesville, Ocala, etc... Folks, if they did it is only because FDOT/JTA launched a disinformation campaign that thoroughly misrepresented the opportunity presented by a unified Jacksonville Terminal. The old station handled 20,000 passengers daily, but JTA has convinced the COJ that we now need 5 great buildings to handle a small fraction of that number.

...and state historic preservation officials raised concerns about all the buses with their exhaust operating so close to the old station, said Craig Teal, project manager for the transportation department.

They are straining at straws here boys and girls, NOBODY said those buses needed to be up against the walls of the historic station buildings, in fact the MJ redraw of the plan, consolidating ALL modes into a single station has the buses lined up on the south side of the property line (alongside the railroad platforms) or across the north face of the terminal south of a 'preserved' NEW convention center east-west concourse. Smoke and Mirrors from the experts.

Tourism officials also have raised red flags about having too much transit activity in the Prime Osborn.

Sure they have, because they have rarely been more then 13 blocks north of the Trout River or south of Doctors Lake. With 2 massive highway agencies completely misrepresenting the situation and a chance at 5 grandiose buildings, the tourism officials are being spoon fed poison.

"The bottom line is that multimodal [transit operations] and a convention center don't mix," said Jeff Sachs, managing partner for Strategic Advisory Group.

REALLY? Read the list above and revisit this statement. I just want to know where we find these idiots? Sorry Jeff but I understand, like most 'good' planners, you simply came up with excuses to make a case for what they wanted all along, right?

"People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."

So conventioneers and the local population can't mix because they are afraid of us... Banjo music anyone? As for travelers, how in hell is anyone going to 'feel like an island' when they have to walk all over La Villa to connect?

...simply removing the convention center from the mix eliminates the argument that led to the illogical Greyhound situation JTA is rushing to construct along Adams Street.

It certainly does Lake! 50+ years of either/or, JTA/FDOT foolery and what have we seen while the experts fiddled...?

Perhaps we lost our direction in mid-June 1946, when National Airlines, moved it's General Office to Miami and four years later moved it's engine overhaul base to Miami from Jacksonville.

MEANWHILE AFTER FDOT/JTA TOOK THE HELM...

May 1, 1971, Amtrak took over all passenger train operations into and out of Jacksonville Terminal, almost immediately (since Amtrak was operating only a fraction of the trains of the previous day) Amtrak sought the economy of cheaper rent. Jacksonville sat on it's hands while all rail operations were moved to the far northwest edge of town in 1974. "Under a overpass and between two junk yards," as one journalist of the era penned. A move that could have been prevented with a simple COJ takeover of the historic station property.

1989, JTA starts operating the 'Jacksonville Skyway', which they claimed was better then streetcars. We paid $180 million for under 3 miles of monorail and San Diego simultaneously paid around $85 million for 15 miles of Light Rail. Today San Diegos system is legend and the Skyway is infamous.

2000, JTA opens the five-story Kings Avenue garage, which has 1,650 spaces and was built for $14.3 million by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, is widely viewed as a disaster since it opened in late 2000. "JTA would have been better off if it hadn't built the garage and just put all of that money into a savings account," said City Councilman John Crescimbeni.

2005, JTA announces 'it has studied' our local transportation needs and for the sum of about $1 billion dollars they will construct a 23 mile system of elevated BUS RAPID TRANSIT freeways over the top of the area railroads, Arlington Expressway, etc...  23 miles that wouldn't reach The Beaches, The Avenues, or Clay County. They also told the City Council that "When enough people ride it, we'll just slide rails under it and we'll have Light Rail!"

That equals about one complete failure per decade, and FDOT/JTA is up to bat again... Wanna bet that this is going to be the longest foul ball in history?

MAYOR BROWN, KILL THIS PROJECT

OCKLAWAHA

[Ralph W]

When  asked the question, months ago, whether or not Greyhound management/operations had actually had boots on the ground to investigate the location and plans submitted, I think the answer from someone "in the know" here said definitely YES.

Now I'm not so sure the current management of Greyhound has a clue. Do they, or do they not have any form of transportation planning department or does someone throw a dart at a map and say, 'Here's the spot, put up the dog sign".

[Tacachale]

There are a few things to keep in mind here.

1. Back in 2001, there was no talk of moving the convention center away from the Prime Osborne. It's fairly understandable that the city didn't want to do something that might hurt the Prime. The transit center was (and still is 11 years later) hypothetical while the convention center was actually present, and there was no contingency plan for dealing with it. Now that that's changed the design plan might have evolved into something better except that...

2. It's clear that moving Greyhound played big in the EverBank relocation deal, which the city (understandably) considered to be of major importance. Lake, didn't you say that JTA claimed they didn't want to revisit the bus station plan because it might affect the timetable for moving Greyhound? This would seem to be the reason for that worry. I think it's a fairly reasonable worry, considering how big the Everbank deal is and how important it is to downtown.

I'd say that if the powers that be can't be convinced to revisit the site plan for the new greyhound station, our best move might be to push them to review and consolidate the rest of the plan. I don't think that all is lost just because one element is off.

[thelakelander]

Yes, in 2001 there was no talk of moving the convention center, although pretty bad advice and poor opinions of mass transit users still played a huge role in the selection of Greyhound's proposed location.  I guess, I'm one who would rather see decision makers state the real reasons why questionable decisions are made, as opposed to stuff like "Greyhound demanded to be located on Adams Street because its next to I-95."  Maybe its just me but its like we settle for mediocrity for pretty bad reasons.  Yet, the cost associated with these underwhelming public investments remain lavish.

As for the rest of the center, things will continue to evolve over time.  There was no talk of a new convention center a decade ago and now a new site has been identified and an administration is in place that views a new convention center as an essential part of their downtown redevelopment plans.  With these changes and the JTC still having no money to break ground (its been nearly 30 years of planning for this intermodal center now), now is the time to reconsider what has turned out to be an outdated proposal.

[Ocklawaha]

"People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."

So conventioneers and the local population can't mix because they are afraid of us... Banjo music anyone? As for travelers, how in hell is anyone going to 'feel like an island' when they have to walk all over La Villa to connect?

OCKLAWAHA

This smacks of the 'Jim Crow or Immigrant Train era.'  The perverted logic of this excuse says that passengers who use the bus are unfit for social interaction with the greater community. Transferring passengers to and from Amtrak are welcome as long as they don't go to the 'bus station.' A metamorphosis takes place as soon as one walks through the doors of a free standing Greyhound station, students, senior citizens and bus tour groups, regardless of race, income or social status in Jacksonville are labeled UNDESIRABLES.   Be very careful if you ever need to ride the bus to Gainesville as  'ARBEIT MACHT FREI' is alive and well in Jacksonville.

...And yes, ALL IS LOST if we let this carrier to escape, losing Greyhound DOES KILL THE JRTC, because basically you have Amtrak intercity LONG-DISTANCE, plus, local bus and local Skyway as an URBAN DISTRIBUTER and Greyhound for regional transfers. Remove Greyhound and you have kicked the regional connectivity completely out of the picture.  REMOVE GREYHOUND AND YOU REMOVE 'REGIONAL' HENCE THE WHOLE CONCEPTUAL FUNCTIONALITY OF THE  STRUCTURE COLLAPSES.

OCKLAWAHA