City Council prepares to Halt Mobility Fee

[fieldafm]

"Oh I turned that back over to the bank".

The great irony is that now those same people are complaining that the banks won't lend them any money for new projects.

That's the truth and then some.

There is money available for high quality deals.  Not so much for shaky deals.  The weak deals still aren't going to get financed and subsequently not built... and meanwhile this 'moratorium' represents an enourmous tax hike to everyone else. 

It would be like the government cancelling the stamps tax on liquor sales and passing a universal sales tax increase to everyone so that underage individuals and people that don't drink now have to make up that tax revenue.  It's simply not a fair taxation scheme.

Do you realize that road projects in your own neighborhoods(ESPECIALLY the Southside) will now suffer funding shorftalls b/c of this moratorium?  Guess who gets to make up those shortfalls?  The entire taxbase of the city.  Instead of localized money going to localized projects(aka fair taxation), now the ad valorum tax revenue (which is not even close to half of the city's tax revenue) will have to bridge that gap.  That's the same ad valorum tax revenue that already isn't enough to fund police/fire/libraries/schools/etc.

I can go on and on about why this is not good fiscal policy, why it won't spur new development, how its just history repeating itself or why we owe it to the taxpayers to follow a sustainable economic development model... but I gotta go back to work so I can earn enough money to pay for a fire station to be built in Oceanway.

[thelakelander]

From my understanding the ad valorum tax is about 1/3 of the city's revenue.  Police and Fire alone are over 50% of the city's budget.  So the ad valorum tax revenue can't even fund public safety alone.

[urbaknight]

I hear that the 2030 Mobility Plan won a national award.

I think we should contact the group that gave it out, and tell them that council was just making a cruel joke to the people of JAX; And furthermore they should be publicly stripped of the award and forced to apologize to everyone affected.

The mobility plan and fee won an award from the APA FL chapter last month, and I believe that it has been nominated for an award by the national APA, which would be given next April. 

In my opinion -

Even with the moratorium the mobility plan and fee still might win that national award.  If the moratorium is just for one year, then the award would be deserved.  But if the city never enacts the mobility fee, then the national award should probably go someplace else.

We all know deep down, based on history, the moratorium is here to stay, unless we can manage to elect a better council.

[John P]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

[duvaldude08]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

I stay on Baymeadows rd and I have no clue what they are doing to SS blvd? There is nothing wrong with it. That is a pure waste of money!!

[iMarvin]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

I stay on Baymeadows rd and I have no clue what they are doing to SS blvd? There is nothing wrong with it. That is a pure waste of money!!

That road is in really bad shape in that section! I have hoped they would fix this road for forever. I'm pretty happy about it and can't wait to see it re-done.

[iMarvin]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

It wouldn't do much. I've seen Lake (thelakelander) give many examples of streetcar lines and I've never seen any cheaper than 10 million and mile.

[iMarvin]

on behalf of all the rest of us who will never use that bit of road, you are welcome, imarvin.

Well sorry, but the whole city pays for things like this. We've all paid for roads we don't use. And I don't even use this road that much (about once a month).

[iMarvin]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

It wouldn't do much. I've seen Lake (thelakelander) give many examples of streetcar lines and I've never seen any cheaper than 10 million and mile.

Except that you don't have to replace the trolley line every 4 years.

No one has to say:

"that trolley is in really bad shape in that section! I have hoped they would fix this line for forever"

So it actually goes much further than the temporary bandage on the asphalt road.

I agree but a streetcar isn't going to be in that area anytime soon and the improvements were needed.

[thelakelander]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

It wouldn't do much. I've seen Lake (thelakelander) give many examples of streetcar lines and I've never seen any cheaper than 10 million and mile.

Here are a few that were cheaper than $10 million/mile:

Kenosha Streetcar - $2.6 million/mile


MATA Trolley (Memphis) - (phase 1 - $7 million/mile, phase 2 - $4.7 million/mile, phase 3 - $12 million/mile (built to LRT standards)


Little Rock River Rail - $8.3 million/mile


Source: http://visioncincinnati.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/streetcar-data-in-other-cities1.pdf

If you're willing to go heritage and "no-frills" without all the impressive bells and whistles the price per mile drop can get pretty significant.

[iMarvin]

^So realisitcally how much do you think we could do with 4 million? I don't see us being able to build anymore than 1.5 miles with that much.

[thelakelander]

on behalf of all the rest of us who will never use that bit of road, you are welcome, imarvin.

Well sorry, but the whole city pays for things like this. We've all paid for roads we don't use. And I don't even use this road that much (about once a month).

I drive on that stretch about once or twice a week.  It's about time to resurface it.  I have no problem with maintaining and improving existing infrastructure.  There's just a huge ongoing cost associated with it, which is why I'm against building new highways for the sake of opening someone's property up for development at the public's long term expense. 

I noticed they also mentioned sidewalks.  As wide as that highway is, there are only sidewalks on the east side of it.  So I hope they're creating new sidewalks on the west side.

[thelakelander]

^So realisitcally how much do you think we could do with 4 million? I don't see us being able to build anymore than 1.5 miles with that much.

Depends on the corridor and the conditions you can play with.  If you can find existing track to utilize, you've saved a ton of money.  If you're willing to buy another city's used cars, you can stack some cash.  If you're willing to have stops instead of stations, you can keep a little money in your pockets. 

Starting from scratch, I'd be hesitant to say something significant in Jax would come in around $4 million/mile.  However, if tracks were reinstalled on the old F&J ROW (city owned between Springfield and the Eastside) or portions of the S-Line, you could probably get it done in that range.  This would be because the city owns most of the old rail ROW and make the assumption that the line would be no-frills.  Unfortunately, ridership would suffer because you aren't hitting many compact centers of activity.

Thus, realistically speaking, I like to play with the $10 million/mile figure.  That gives you some wiggle room.  At that number, $4 million would get you about 8 blocks.  Using Newnan Street as an example, that stretch is Bay to Union.

[iMarvin]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/jeff-brumley/2011-10-26/fdot-announces-resurfacing-about-3-miles-southside
$4,000,000 for improvements 2.8 miles of generic road on southside boulevard. How far would $4 million go towards streetcar which actually generates new development and investors and riders?

It wouldn't do much. I've seen Lake (thelakelander) give many examples of streetcar lines and I've never seen any cheaper than 10 million and mile.

Except that you don't have to replace the trolley line every 4 years.

No one has to say:

"that trolley is in really bad shape in that section! I have hoped they would fix this line for forever"

So it actually goes much further than the temporary bandage on the asphalt road.

I agree but a streetcar isn't going to be in that area anytime soon and the improvements were needed.

We also need the streetcar in the area that I live in.  So I guess its all about how we pick our priorities.  Your road won.

I don't live in that area. There are things that need to be done right in the area that I live in.

[iMarvin]

on behalf of all the rest of us who will never use that bit of road, you are welcome, imarvin.

Well sorry, but the whole city pays for things like this. We've all paid for roads we don't use. And I don't even use this road that much (about once a month).

yes.  I think that was the point i was making.

Ok well good then.