Jags Vs Panthers Reactions

[Wacca Pilatka]

I think we deserve the media whipping that we receive for being ungrateful. Im sure that fans thought if we got a team they would be a play-off/Championship its entire exsistance or what. If they did, thats not realtic. Every team in the NFL has had their dark years. The Colts and Steelers just to name a few.

No offense meant, but even as a season ticket holder, I hate this line of reasoning. Mix a terrible economy, with a small market full of transplants, with poor management, and it's not nearly as a simple as the city being "ungrateful." Pulling in 60,000+ people (almost exclusively from Jacksonville rather than the surrounding areas) in a bad economy in a market of barely a million people is a MASSIVE accomplishment, and shouldn't be considered a given. Entertainment dollars are sparse these days, there are a million other options on where to spend that money. The blackout threats won't go away when the city starts being "grateful," they will go away when upper management instills faith in the population that the team is on the right track (even if they're not winning the Superbowl), and when the first generation of Jags fans start passing down that tradition to their family. It's completely unfair to compare the Jags to any other franchise in the league. It's apples and oranges are far as population and tradition are concerned. I have full faith we'll see a day where there is a waiting list for season tickets, but in the meantime, guilt trips about football are the single best way to turn people off from the product (see two years ago).

There's a middle ground here. 

Ken is absolutely right about the accomplishment that's happening here, given the lack of secondary markets, the poor economy, and the fact that the Jaguars haven't been a consistent winner. 

And very few markets have REALLY supported their teams in dark times.  The Steelers are an exception - check their records from 1984-91, for instance.  The Broncos are another, and the Bears, and the other big, tradition-rich markets where it is simply too hard to get tickets to willfully give them up even if the team is bad for a number of years (Dallas, Giants/Jets). 

But the Colts couldn't even sell out a 56,000 seat tin can consistently until a few years after Peyton arrived.  The Patriots were down to 17,000 season ticket holders in the early 90s.  Yes, you read that correctly.  The Bengals and Cardinals and Bucs drew less than 40,000 a game for years, and after the Bucs got to a stage of regular sellouts while the team was winning, that obviously ended a couple of years ago.

I would buy Jag tickets even if they were 0-16, and a sense of civic obligation to Jacksonville is part of that, but I do understand fans' not wanting to use their discretionary income on them if the Jags have a long stretch of (real or perceived) losing or hopelessness.  That doesn't mean Jacksonville deserves to be picked on, because this happens in all markets except for the ones where season tickets are worth more than platinum.  It is sometimes more noticeable in Jacksonville because we have a smaller margin for error being a smaller market.  (And the media DOES go out of its way to pick on and lie about Jacksonville's fan support.  We're an easy target because it's a market not as many people know well, they're lazy, they like to pick in the South, and a lot of them are still bitter that they didn't have the nightlife options they wanted for the 2005 Super Bowl, or that they looked stupid in their expansion predictions in 1993.  Look at how hardly anyone said a peep about the Cardinals' or Raiders' years upon years of blackouts.)

I understand SOME of the criticism because 1) Jacksonville expressly campaigned for a team on the grounds that it would outperform market-size "expectations" and sell 65,000-70,000 seats per game even in the dark times; 2) though the metro area has grown at a healthy rate, the NFL clearly was under the impression that it would grow even faster.  Also, and more to DuvalDude's point, 3) in 2009 in particular, a lot of Jacksonville area "fans" made fools of themselves with their "I only watch teams that win games" public rhetoric (which I think was ridiculous and more excuse-making than the result of a discriminating eye toward how the team was performing) and the ridiculous Jaguars-Gators culture war largely fanned by acolytes of Tebow and the local press (and to some extent, I would argue, the Tebow family itself).  The "Just draft him!" shirts, TimTimXL radio rhetoric, et al. was embarrassing when I was taking first-timers to Jacksonville and more so, when the national press got hold of it.  People were clinging to these ridiculous ideas about the Jaguars, e.g., ignoring what the team does in the community and its many good character people (on and off the field) and calling them the "Thuguars," etc.

It really made the city look amateurish and like a minor-league town.  It was even sillier that the support was for a college that isn't even in Jacksonville.  It makes me bristle when people say things like "The Gators are the true pride of Jacksonville" and more recently "this is Sharks town; who needs the Jaguars?"  I certainly can understand someone's hearing that and thinking that the Jaguars' NFL future looks weak in Jacksonville, though I do not think that is the case.

I think the media and certain Gator boosters fanned a situation where it became trendy to trash the Jaguars and liking them became uncool to some degree.  The change in the atmosphere since Tebow worship (partly) got out of the way and Team Teal came into action is obvious.  The overt civic and business community support is much more obvious.  The Times-Union's tone toward the team has changed.  The anti-Jaguar rhetoric seems to have subsided even as people get angry at the performance on field thus far this year - I mean the Thuguar, "I'll never buy tickets again, I'll support the Gators instead" stuff.  I think we are really turning things around both in on-field product (the offensive output thus far notwithstanding - this roster HAS improved) and community support of the team.  It's also clear that the younger generation is stepping up and buying tickets and showing steadier support of the Jaguars than did the initial wave of fans who lost interest when the novelty and division titles wore off. 

My only concerns for the Jaguars' future are 1) the succession plan and 2) that we do not end up like San Diego, where people buy up just enough tickets to get the game on TV (most of the time) and a bunch of high-dollar seats and boxes are forever unsold.

[Bativac]

...It really made the city look amateurish and like a minor-league town.  It was even sillier that the support was for a college that isn't even in Jacksonville.  It makes me bristle when people say things like "The Gators are the true pride of Jacksonville" and more recently "this is Sharks town; who needs the Jaguars?"  I certainly can understand someone's hearing that and thinking that the Jaguars' NFL future looks weak in Jacksonville, though I do not think that is the case.

I think the media and certain Gator boosters fanned a situation where it became trendy to trash the Jaguars and liking them became uncool to some degree.  The change in the atmosphere since Tebow worship (partly) got out of the way and Team Teal came into action is obvious.  The overt civic and business community support is much more obvious.  The Times-Union's tone toward the team has changed.  The anti-Jaguar rhetoric seems to have subsided even as people get angry at the performance on field thus far this year - I mean the Thuguar, "I'll never buy tickets again, I'll support the Gators instead" stuff.  I think we are really turning things around both in on-field product (the offensive output thus far notwithstanding - this roster HAS improved) and community support of the team.  It's also clear that the younger generation is stepping up and buying tickets and showing steadier support of the Jaguars than did the initial wave of fans who lost interest when the novelty and division titles wore off. 

Can I chime in?

I'm not a football fan - not by a long shot - but my dad is, and his wife is. They're both in their 50s and have lived here most of their lives (my dad was born and raised here, as was his dad). The Gator football tradition is long-lived and very strong (so is the FSU tradition, as far as his wife and his brother are concerned). They watch the Jaguars but they haven't had season tickets in years - can't afford it. If they could, I'm still not sure they'd go. They just don't have an attachment to the team.

I think it'll be a long time before the "generational" aspect of supporting a team will start to result in ticket sales. Jax isn't a place that readily accepts anything new. There's that, and there's the fact that honestly, not everyone is a football fan. Those people aren't going to go even if you GIVE them tickets. A lot of us get sick of hearing the "civic pride" thing when it comes to the Jaguars. It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with being more than a casual football fan, and having the income to spend on tickets, and the desire to make the trek downtown and (in the minds of many) pay for parking, and not have to worry about getting someone to watch the kids... Couple that with the fact that even a non-fan like myself knows that the Jags don't have a winning reputation...

They're fighting an uphill battle.

[manasia]

In my opinion their is no civic obligation for one to purchase tickets to a football game. If one chooses to believe that is their civic duty to purchase tickets to see the Jaguars, that's great. If not that does not mean you are less of a citizen.

Entertainment Dollars = Discretionary Income.

I respect the two posters Wacca and Ken, because they are one of the few season ticket holders, who I have heard from who do not try to make you feel guilty for not purchasing season tickets. All they are trying to do is provide logical examples of why people should buy tickets, and why some folks are not.

If Wacca and Ken could be in sales for the jags, the stadium could be sold out in my opinion.

It is hard to criticize your consumer in business, and most importantly, when what you have to offer is not a vital service, it is tougher to fight for their dollars. These two guys seem to get that.

[I-10east]

That's why I can't stand the Gators; I didn't started off hating them, but ever since we've gotten the Jags, most of the anti-Jags crap around this city come from Gator fans! I don't want to turn this info a Jags vs. Gator thing because I know that Gator fans are sensitive, but I can say Roll Tide! College ball is like a refreshment, compared to the main course(NFL). I'll never understand for the life of me why someone (esp non-alumni) would prefer college football over the pros, but to each it's own. NCAA football, the only sports organization far as I know WITHOUT a playoff. Whatta joke.

God bless you Wacca for being diehard enough to stick through an 0-16 record; I'm right there with ya!

[comncense]

I agree that no one should feel obligated to buy tickets but you can't deny the negative impact on the city if the Jaguars leave town. Especially the impact on Downtown Jacksonville. I think there's a difference between Civic Pride and Civic Obligation. It does have a measure of Civic Pride I think. Jags leave and that's one more reason for young people to say there's nothing to do in Jacksonville. We all know we hear people say that ALL the time. It's always nice to have options even if we may not partake in all of them.

[manasia]

I agree that no one should feel obligated to buy tickets but you can't deny the negative impact on the city if the Jaguars leave town. Especially the impact on Downtown Jacksonville. I think there's a difference between Civic Pride and Civic Obligation. It does have a measure of Civic Pride I think. Jags leave and that's one more reason for young people to say there's nothing to do in Jacksonville. We all know we hear people say that ALL the time. It's always nice to have options even if we may not partake in all of them.

+1 Civic Pride and Civic Obligation are totally different.

[manasia]

That's why I can't stand the Gators; I didn't started off hating them, but ever since we've gotten the Jags, most of the anti-Jags crap around this city come from Gator fans! I don't want to turn this info a Jags vs. Gator thing because I know that Gator fans are sensitive, but I can say Roll Tide! College ball is like a refreshment, compared to the main course(NFL). I'll never understand for the life of me why someone (esp non-alumni) would prefer college football over the pros, but to each it's own. NCAA football, the only sports organization far as I know WITHOUT a playoff. Whatta joke.

God bless you Wacca for being diehard enough to stick through an 0-16 record; I'm right there with ya!

Go Gators.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

New Orleans defense can't stop a nosebleed!

I'm sure there's a Jets / Raiders / Sanchez / Michael Irvin joke in here somewhere, but I'm gonna let ya'll figure it out.

[manasia]

New Orleans defense can't stop a nosebleed!

I'm sure there's a Jets / Raiders / Sanchez / Michael Irvin joke in here somewhere, but I'm gonna let ya'll figure it out.

LMAOOOOO

[Wacca Pilatka]

In my opinion their is no civic obligation for one to purchase tickets to a football game. If one chooses to believe that is their civic duty to purchase tickets to see the Jaguars, that's great. If not that does not mean you are less of a citizen.

Entertainment Dollars = Discretionary Income.

I respect the two posters Wacca and Ken, because they are one of the few season ticket holders, who I have heard from who do not try to make you feel guilty for not purchasing season tickets. All they are trying to do is provide logical examples of why people should buy tickets, and why some folks are not.

If Wacca and Ken could be in sales for the jags, the stadium could be sold out in my opinion.

It is hard to criticize your consumer in business, and most importantly, when what you have to offer is not a vital service, it is tougher to fight for their dollars. These two guys seem to get that.

Thanks for your kind words but I don't think the Jaguars are who are actually doing the criticism.  I've heard many people say that people are shirking their civic duty by not buying tickets, but not actual Jaguars officials or ticket sales representatives.  I feel rather compelled to defend the ticket sales staff here because they've been extraordinarily nice, far beyond the call of duty, to me; and because I think they have become quite creative in marketing and incentivizing tickets.

It's likely that the Jaguar organization got a bit lazy in ticket sales after the early years - with selling out so easily just from the immediate Jacksonville market, why would it be necessary to make any major fan outreach or secondary market outreach?  But that was unsustainable, and I think they have gotten very creative and clever in adapting to that.  Similarly, the Colts had to do many years of patient secondary market outreach after the newness wore off in Indianapolis (and the arrival of Peyton obviously helped).  This is tougher for us to do since the nearest good-sized secondary markets already appear to be in thrall to other franchises, and underscores what Ken said about what an impressive job we do selling just in the immediate Jacksonville area.  I also think the Jaguars do more fan outreach and more in the community than any other pro sports team (a good reason to root for their staying in town even if you don't buy tickets) - to a degree that often wows fans of other teams and in other markets when I describe it. 

[I-10east]

Go Gators.

Don't you mean Go Gata? Just like the Bull S*it Bowl Championship Series(BSBCS) that yall have won twice not that long ago.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Can I chime in?

I'm not a football fan - not by a long shot - but my dad is, and his wife is. They're both in their 50s and have lived here most of their lives (my dad was born and raised here, as was his dad). The Gator football tradition is long-lived and very strong (so is the FSU tradition, as far as his wife and his brother are concerned). They watch the Jaguars but they haven't had season tickets in years - can't afford it. If they could, I'm still not sure they'd go. They just don't have an attachment to the team.

I think it'll be a long time before the "generational" aspect of supporting a team will start to result in ticket sales. Jax isn't a place that readily accepts anything new. There's that, and there's the fact that honestly, not everyone is a football fan. Those people aren't going to go even if you GIVE them tickets. A lot of us get sick of hearing the "civic pride" thing when it comes to the Jaguars. It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with being more than a casual football fan, and having the income to spend on tickets, and the desire to make the trek downtown and (in the minds of many) pay for parking, and not have to worry about getting someone to watch the kids... Couple that with the fact that even a non-fan like myself knows that the Jags don't have a winning reputation...

They're fighting an uphill battle.

I agree that no one ought to be bashing the non-fans or casual fans who prefer not to go to the games.  They aren't in any way leeches or anti-Jacksonville as some of the more rabid ticket sales boosters might imply. 

And even though I much prefer pro football to college and DO think the Jaguars are very important to the fabric of Jacksonville (and losing them would be devastating), I understand that there are people who prefer college football, feel more of an attachment to the Gators, and don't understand (or resent) the argument that one should support the Jaguars out of a sense of obligation to support the city.

I also understand that there are many people who are equally passionate as Gator/Nole and Jaguar fans.  It's not impossible to be both.  And that there are many people who just don't particularly care about football.

So I do not mean to tar all casual fans or Gator fans.  What I am specifically referring to is a distinct subset of Gator fans (this seems to happen a lot more with Gator fans than Nole fans) who seem to be trying to deliberately undermine the Jaguars.  And this is a very important distinction.

They openly wax nostalgic about how much nicer it was when there was no pro football team to divert attention from the Gators.

They stoke anti-Jaguar sentiment on radio programs.

They offer themselves up to articles in the national media in which they proudly opine that no one in his right mind would be a Jaguar fan, that the team is full of thugs, that the stadium experience is unequivocally bad (having attended pro games in a number of stadia, I would strongly disagree and not just out of teal-colored glasses loyalty; any of my guests would do the same).  They proudly announce that "we're spoiled fans," that the city doesn't deserve a team, that only Tim Tebow would make the team worth watching, that "the Gators are the real pride of Jacksonville," etc.

They also distort the team's reputation, frequently spouting off that the Jaguars "never" win or misstating their history.  (As you said, the Jaguars "don't have a winning reputation."  But while their fortunes haven't been that fat of late, they've been respectable and a playoff contender every year from 2004-2010 with the exception of their 2008 debacle.  Some will deliberately distort their record to make them sound like a perennial 4-12.)

These people have every right to be a fan of whoever they want.  No one begrudges them that.

But when they deliberately try to undermine the Jaguars or make those kinds of comments to ESPN and the New York Times and Yahoo Sports, they are embarrassing the city and making it look like a minor-league place, undermining its national reputation, diluting citizens' pride in Jacksonville's status, and in some circles helping to make it into an undeserved national punchline.

I don't resent Gator fans and I don't resent people who prefer college or minor league sports.  But I resent that.

[I-10east]

^^^Well said Wacca. When I came from NY in 86' I actually liked the Gators (never a serious diehard fan of them) and I actually rooted for FL over GA because afterall I live in FL; but then comes all of the things that Wacca have mentioned concerning alotta Gator fans shortly after the Jags came to town, then I started despising the Gators. Gator fan, can you atleast admit that some of your compadres hates the Jags, and will do anything to undermine them? Can you atleast give me that much?   

[I-10east]

BTW, I don't hate Gators fans; My freaking best friend that I've known for sixteen years is a diehard Gator(also a diehard Jag, converted by me pretty recently) but that don't stop me from hating the University that is UF. LOL

[manasia]

Go Gators.

Don't you mean Go Gata? Just like the Bull S*it Bowl Championship Series(BSBCS) that yall have won twice not that long ago.

LOL