Skyway Could Be Torn Down.....In 2036!

[iMarvin]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

[ChriswUfGator]

I would also like to know where the streetcar was supposed to go over the river. If we build the streetcar going over the river, the skyway would get even less riders.

The streetcar was never proposed to go over the river.  It was proposed for a certain corridor one on side of the river.  Up to date, the south side of the river would be served by a commuter rail line that would eventually link the airport area with St. Augustine.  That system would use the existing FEC bridge.  Partial funding for this project is also included as a priority in the mobility plan.

Long-term, it should go over the river and connect to San Marco. Commuter rail doesn't serve the same purpose or bring the same benefits to neighborhoods like that, and neither does the skyway. You could and should eventually run it over there.

[iMarvin]

I would also like to know where the streetcar was supposed to go over the river. If we build the streetcar going over the river, the skyway would get even less riders.

We can't just design the streetcar system from the get-go around not rocking the skyway's boat, or else you wind up with two incomplete failed systems instead of one. The streetcar needs to be its own thing, the skyway is a just red herring in this process and shouldn't get in the way of sound planning, or even warrant consideration when designing the streetcar routes. The streetcar needs to do what it needs to do to be successful, the skyway really ought to be left out of it. The only way to utilize it is by cannibalizing the streetcar's potential to force people onto it, at which point nobody will use it since nobody in their right mind is going to make 6 transfers to go a couple miles. We really need to design this to be successful on its own, leave the skyway out of it.

So you think we should forget about the skyway, build a streetcar that goes everywhere, let the skyway rot for 25 YEARS, then tear it down (since by then it would be a waste if no one was riding it)?

[peestandingup]

But the whole question of any thing working is rendered moot as long as the supremely incompetence management over at the JTA is calling the shots.

These idiots could completely undermine the direction and laws of gravity if they only had a chance.  In fact if JTA were in charge of gravity, we would call it blueberry jelly, and it would only work three times a day.

I was getting ready to post something similar. If JTA's in charge, it'll be crap. So we're all probably arguing over nothing. I think they'll just use buses anyway no matter what & then say "See there, does the same thing as that expensive streetcar would have. What's the problem??"

actually the skyway has escalators.  and elevators.

Which, whenever I've used the skyway, granted not that often, always seem to be broken. Along with the change machines and everything else, and sometimes even the actual skyway car I'm traveling in. But I guess I digress. We're still back to my suspicion that designing a system that requires a half dozen transfers to go a few miles is not exactly going to be the epitome of convenience, nor do much to attract ridership.

The escalators have only been down for maintenance twice in three years.  so you must seriously use the skyway on extremely weird days.

Maybe, but I do try to use the Skyway (public trans in general) whenever I can (not because I have to) & something is ALWAYS messed up with the Skyway. Its usually the change machines & turnstiles. When they're broken, guess what? I don't pay. I'd GLADLY pay & am willing to do so. So I figure if they want my money, the least they could do is fix the things that, you know, allow them to actually TAKE my money. Its amazing.

In fact, at one of the stations (the one close to the landing I believe), the handicapped entry door hasn't worked for months. Why do I use that door? Because I like to take my 3 year old along for the rides (and she's in a stroller because we walk around a lot). And it wont fit through the normal turnstiles either. So you can imagine the fun of getting a screaming baby out of her stroller (if she's asleep then God help me), throwing the stroller over a turnstile, then carrying the baby over it, then putting her right back in it. "Oh crap! There went the train! Son of a!!" All because JTA is too f*cking lazy to fix something.

JTA sucks, guys. End of story. Don't try to defend them. They're horrible at their jobs. So if you're trying to include them in with the streetcar plans in any way, prepare for it to fail.

Lol. I know it wouldn't be expensive to fix the turnstiles and everything else that's wrong with the stations. That is a concern I have with the skyway, though. The turnstiles or the slot where you put change in always is messed up.

Well, its not so much a rant about fixing it as it is about JTA letting things like that go for so long. The fact that those things are easily fixed actually makes it worse because it shows how incredibly awful & lazy they are.

Like I said, if you let them touch any part of the streetcar system (and that includes forcing people to transfer via the JTA-ran Skyway), you might as well not even do it.

[ChriswUfGator]

But the whole question of any thing working is rendered moot as long as the supremely incompetence management over at the JTA is calling the shots.

These idiots could completely undermine the direction and laws of gravity if they only had a chance.  In fact if JTA were in charge of gravity, we would call it blueberry jelly, and it would only work three times a day.

I was getting ready to post something similar. If JTA's in charge, it'll be crap. So we're all probably arguing over nothing. I think they'll just use buses anyway no matter what & then say "See there, does the same thing as that expensive streetcar would have. What's the problem??"

actually the skyway has escalators.  and elevators.

Which, whenever I've used the skyway, granted not that often, always seem to be broken. Along with the change machines and everything else, and sometimes even the actual skyway car I'm traveling in. But I guess I digress. We're still back to my suspicion that designing a system that requires a half dozen transfers to go a few miles is not exactly going to be the epitome of convenience, nor do much to attract ridership.

The escalators have only been down for maintenance twice in three years.  so you must seriously use the skyway on extremely weird days.

Maybe, but I do try to use the Skyway (public trans in general) whenever I can (not because I have to) & something is ALWAYS messed up with the Skyway. Its usually the change machines & turnstiles. When they're broken, guess what? I don't pay. I'd GLADLY pay & am willing to do so. So I figure if they want my money, the least they could do is fix the things that, you know, allow them to actually TAKE my money. Its amazing.

In fact, at one of the stations (the one close to the landing I believe), the handicapped entry door hasn't worked for months. Why do I use that door? Because I like to take my 3 year old along for the rides (and she's in a stroller because we walk around a lot). And it wont fit through the normal turnstiles either. So you can imagine the fun of getting a screaming baby out of her stroller (if she's asleep then God help me), throwing the stroller over a turnstile, then carrying the baby over it, then putting her right back in it. "Oh crap! There went the train! Son of a!!" All because JTA is too f*cking lazy to fix something.

JTA sucks, guys. End of story. Don't try to defend them. They're horrible at their jobs. So if you're trying to include them in with the streetcar plans in any way, prepare for it to fail.

Lol. I know it wouldn't be expensive to fix the turnstiles and everything else that's wrong with the stations. That is a concern I have with the skyway, though. The turnstiles or the slot where you put change in always is messed up.

Nooooo, that can't be correct guys, nothing ever breaks at the skyway stations, apparently I was making it all up. 

[iMarvin]

I would also like to know where the streetcar was supposed to go over the river. If we build the streetcar going over the river, the skyway would get even less riders.

The streetcar was never proposed to go over the river.  It was proposed for a certain corridor one on side of the river.  Up to date, the south side of the river would be served by a commuter rail line that would eventually link the airport area with St. Augustine.  That system would use the existing FEC bridge.  Partial funding for this project is also included as a priority in the mobility plan.

Oh, I know, I just wanted to know where the streetcar would go since some people want it to go over the river.

[ChriswUfGator]

I would also like to know where the streetcar was supposed to go over the river. If we build the streetcar going over the river, the skyway would get even less riders.

We can't just design the streetcar system from the get-go around not rocking the skyway's boat, or else you wind up with two incomplete failed systems instead of one. The streetcar needs to be its own thing, the skyway is a just red herring in this process and shouldn't get in the way of sound planning, or even warrant consideration when designing the streetcar routes. The streetcar needs to do what it needs to do to be successful, the skyway really ought to be left out of it. The only way to utilize it is by cannibalizing the streetcar's potential to force people onto it, at which point nobody will use it since nobody in their right mind is going to make 6 transfers to go a couple miles. We really need to design this to be successful on its own, leave the skyway out of it.

So you think we should forget about the skyway, build a streetcar that goes everywhere, let the skyway rot for 25 YEARS, then tear it down (since by then it would be a waste if no one was riding it)?

I think we should forget about the skyway when designing the streetcar, yes. It's not wise to saddle one with the other's problems, or to try and force unnatural synergies that result in a number of transfers that make gaining ridership impossible, much less not allow the streetcar to go to obvious destinations in order to avoid competing with the skyway. That's all silly and will result in two incomplete and failed systems instead of one.

[thelakelander]

Did this site not conduct a poll asking what routes people would prefer, one of which was Riverside Ave, prior to submitting its input on the design? I seem to recall it did. Whatever made it into the final proposal I wouldn't know, I don't have anything to do with it.

The proposed streetcar route is on Riverside Avenue for a segment.  However, not were it doesn't make sense.  By going on Park, north of Forest, you're still within a 1/4 mile of FTU and Haskell's offices but you open access up to a larger area for redevelopment potential and directly hit the JRTC.  Nevertheless, before it can be built, ridership and economic analysis studies would have to be done before a final alignment is chosen.

[iMarvin]

But the whole question of any thing working is rendered moot as long as the supremely incompetence management over at the JTA is calling the shots.

These idiots could completely undermine the direction and laws of gravity if they only had a chance.  In fact if JTA were in charge of gravity, we would call it blueberry jelly, and it would only work three times a day.

I was getting ready to post something similar. If JTA's in charge, it'll be crap. So we're all probably arguing over nothing. I think they'll just use buses anyway no matter what & then say "See there, does the same thing as that expensive streetcar would have. What's the problem??"

actually the skyway has escalators.  and elevators.

Which, whenever I've used the skyway, granted not that often, always seem to be broken. Along with the change machines and everything else, and sometimes even the actual skyway car I'm traveling in. But I guess I digress. We're still back to my suspicion that designing a system that requires a half dozen transfers to go a few miles is not exactly going to be the epitome of convenience, nor do much to attract ridership.

The escalators have only been down for maintenance twice in three years.  so you must seriously use the skyway on extremely weird days.

Maybe, but I do try to use the Skyway (public trans in general) whenever I can (not because I have to) & something is ALWAYS messed up with the Skyway. Its usually the change machines & turnstiles. When they're broken, guess what? I don't pay. I'd GLADLY pay & am willing to do so. So I figure if they want my money, the least they could do is fix the things that, you know, allow them to actually TAKE my money. Its amazing.

In fact, at one of the stations (the one close to the landing I believe), the handicapped entry door hasn't worked for months. Why do I use that door? Because I like to take my 3 year old along for the rides (and she's in a stroller because we walk around a lot). And it wont fit through the normal turnstiles either. So you can imagine the fun of getting a screaming baby out of her stroller (if she's asleep then God help me), throwing the stroller over a turnstile, then carrying the baby over it, then putting her right back in it. "Oh crap! There went the train! Son of a!!" All because JTA is too f*cking lazy to fix something.

JTA sucks, guys. End of story. Don't try to defend them. They're horrible at their jobs. So if you're trying to include them in with the streetcar plans in any way, prepare for it to fail.

Lol. I know it wouldn't be expensive to fix the turnstiles and everything else that's wrong with the stations. That is a concern I have with the skyway, though. The turnstiles or the slot where you put change in always is messed up.

Well, its not so much a rant about fixing it as it is about JTA letting things like that go for so long. The fact that those things are easily fixed actually makes it worse because it shows how incredibly awful & lazy they are.

Like I said, if you let them touch any part of the streetcar system (and that includes forcing people to transfer via the JTA-ran Skyway), you might as well not even do it.

You're right. Hopefully when we get this new fare card (called the STAR card), they will fix that. I don't even know if the skyway will use it.

[iMarvin]

But the whole question of any thing working is rendered moot as long as the supremely incompetence management over at the JTA is calling the shots.

These idiots could completely undermine the direction and laws of gravity if they only had a chance.  In fact if JTA were in charge of gravity, we would call it blueberry jelly, and it would only work three times a day.

I was getting ready to post something similar. If JTA's in charge, it'll be crap. So we're all probably arguing over nothing. I think they'll just use buses anyway no matter what & then say "See there, does the same thing as that expensive streetcar would have. What's the problem??"

actually the skyway has escalators.  and elevators.

Which, whenever I've used the skyway, granted not that often, always seem to be broken. Along with the change machines and everything else, and sometimes even the actual skyway car I'm traveling in. But I guess I digress. We're still back to my suspicion that designing a system that requires a half dozen transfers to go a few miles is not exactly going to be the epitome of convenience, nor do much to attract ridership.

The escalators have only been down for maintenance twice in three years.  so you must seriously use the skyway on extremely weird days.

Maybe, but I do try to use the Skyway (public trans in general) whenever I can (not because I have to) & something is ALWAYS messed up with the Skyway. Its usually the change machines & turnstiles. When they're broken, guess what? I don't pay. I'd GLADLY pay & am willing to do so. So I figure if they want my money, the least they could do is fix the things that, you know, allow them to actually TAKE my money. Its amazing.

In fact, at one of the stations (the one close to the landing I believe), the handicapped entry door hasn't worked for months. Why do I use that door? Because I like to take my 3 year old along for the rides (and she's in a stroller because we walk around a lot). And it wont fit through the normal turnstiles either. So you can imagine the fun of getting a screaming baby out of her stroller (if she's asleep then God help me), throwing the stroller over a turnstile, then carrying the baby over it, then putting her right back in it. "Oh crap! There went the train! Son of a!!" All because JTA is too f*cking lazy to fix something.

JTA sucks, guys. End of story. Don't try to defend them. They're horrible at their jobs. So if you're trying to include them in with the streetcar plans in any way, prepare for it to fail.

Lol. I know it wouldn't be expensive to fix the turnstiles and everything else that's wrong with the stations. That is a concern I have with the skyway, though. The turnstiles or the slot where you put change in always is messed up.

Nooooo, that can't be correct guys, nothing ever breaks at the skyway stations, apparently I was making it all up. 

I can say that the turnstiles are often broken, but the escalator or elevator, I've never seen them broke or shut down.

[thelakelander]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstood the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

[ChriswUfGator]

But the whole question of any thing working is rendered moot as long as the supremely incompetence management over at the JTA is calling the shots.

These idiots could completely undermine the direction and laws of gravity if they only had a chance.  In fact if JTA were in charge of gravity, we would call it blueberry jelly, and it would only work three times a day.

I was getting ready to post something similar. If JTA's in charge, it'll be crap. So we're all probably arguing over nothing. I think they'll just use buses anyway no matter what & then say "See there, does the same thing as that expensive streetcar would have. What's the problem??"

actually the skyway has escalators.  and elevators.

Which, whenever I've used the skyway, granted not that often, always seem to be broken. Along with the change machines and everything else, and sometimes even the actual skyway car I'm traveling in. But I guess I digress. We're still back to my suspicion that designing a system that requires a half dozen transfers to go a few miles is not exactly going to be the epitome of convenience, nor do much to attract ridership.

The escalators have only been down for maintenance twice in three years.  so you must seriously use the skyway on extremely weird days.

Maybe, but I do try to use the Skyway (public trans in general) whenever I can (not because I have to) & something is ALWAYS messed up with the Skyway. Its usually the change machines & turnstiles. When they're broken, guess what? I don't pay. I'd GLADLY pay & am willing to do so. So I figure if they want my money, the least they could do is fix the things that, you know, allow them to actually TAKE my money. Its amazing.

In fact, at one of the stations (the one close to the landing I believe), the handicapped entry door hasn't worked for months. Why do I use that door? Because I like to take my 3 year old along for the rides (and she's in a stroller because we walk around a lot). And it wont fit through the normal turnstiles either. So you can imagine the fun of getting a screaming baby out of her stroller (if she's asleep then God help me), throwing the stroller over a turnstile, then carrying the baby over it, then putting her right back in it. "Oh crap! There went the train! Son of a!!" All because JTA is too f*cking lazy to fix something.

JTA sucks, guys. End of story. Don't try to defend them. They're horrible at their jobs. So if you're trying to include them in with the streetcar plans in any way, prepare for it to fail.

Lol. I know it wouldn't be expensive to fix the turnstiles and everything else that's wrong with the stations. That is a concern I have with the skyway, though. The turnstiles or the slot where you put change in always is messed up.

Nooooo, that can't be correct guys, nothing ever breaks at the skyway stations, apparently I was making it all up. 

I can say that the turnstiles are often broken, but the escalator or elevator, I've never seen them broke or shut down.

Well I have. And the station I mentioned doesn't even have an escalator, so is the fact that it never existed for JTA to not maintain it something I should what, thank them for?

[iMarvin]

I would also like to know where the streetcar was supposed to go over the river. If we build the streetcar going over the river, the skyway would get even less riders.

We can't just design the streetcar system from the get-go around not rocking the skyway's boat, or else you wind up with two incomplete failed systems instead of one. The streetcar needs to be its own thing, the skyway is a just red herring in this process and shouldn't get in the way of sound planning, or even warrant consideration when designing the streetcar routes. The streetcar needs to do what it needs to do to be successful, the skyway really ought to be left out of it. The only way to utilize it is by cannibalizing the streetcar's potential to force people onto it, at which point nobody will use it since nobody in their right mind is going to make 6 transfers to go a couple miles. We really need to design this to be successful on its own, leave the skyway out of it.

So you think we should forget about the skyway, build a streetcar that goes everywhere, let the skyway rot for 25 YEARS, then tear it down (since by then it would be a waste if no one was riding it)?

I think we should forget about the skyway when designing the streetcar, yes. It's not wise to saddle one with the other's problems, or to try and force unnatural synergies that result in a number of transfers that make gaining ridership impossible, much less not allow the streetcar to go to obvious destinations in order to avoid competing with the skyway. That's all silly and will result in two incomplete and failed systems instead of one.

OK, so do you think that the skyway will ever have a good number of riders if we pretend that it's not there when we build the streetcar? The streetcar is not feasible for crossing the river. The skyway is. An extension to San Marco is needed, IMO (along with the sports complex). But if we let the ridership stay the same, I'm almost 100% positive that this thing will get torn down in 2036. That would basically de-connect the Southbank and San Marco from Downtown. Or we could spend $100 million on building a bridge for a streetcar so it can be convenient with a minimum number of transfers? The only way the Southbank will be connected to the rest of the urban core is the skyway. We should get it to go other places also.

[iMarvin]

I'm not positive so I have to ask - Does the metromover in Miami not have this type of developments near it stations? I know it's not the skyway, but the two are sisters and if we could get downtown going again, I don't see why new residential or mixed-use projects couldn't be built near stations and look just like those pics of San Diego.

The Metromover does have some TOD along its stations in Brickell.  However, its also a part of a system that includes Heavy Rail and commuter rail.  Nevertheless, Miami is still moving forward with streetcar expansion as opposed to extending the metromover.  Considering its the most successful example of an urban people mover in America, that should speak volumes:

http://www.miamigov.com/MiamiStreetcar/pages/

Wow, no info online about the streetcar. Anyways, 30,000 people ride the metromover everyday without using any other mode of transportation. Those people have to come from the condo towers. We might not be able to get 30,000 a day, but we could definitely get 3,500 a day if we rehabbed some of those buildings (and built some) along the skyway route into residential or mixed-use. Btw, 3500 comes from the prediction of 100,000 riders a month. That would be a little over that.

I think you misunderstand the wiki link for metromover.  The 30k figure is for all Metromover ridership.  However, a significant chunk of its 30k daily riders transfer to it from Metrorail.

I didn't misunderstand. I went on wikipedia to look up the ridership. If we get commuter rail, people would transfer to the skyway, but the difference would be that the metromover is a complete skyway, whereas the skyway is not.

[ChriswUfGator]

I would also like to know where the streetcar was supposed to go over the river. If we build the streetcar going over the river, the skyway would get even less riders.

We can't just design the streetcar system from the get-go around not rocking the skyway's boat, or else you wind up with two incomplete failed systems instead of one. The streetcar needs to be its own thing, the skyway is a just red herring in this process and shouldn't get in the way of sound planning, or even warrant consideration when designing the streetcar routes. The streetcar needs to do what it needs to do to be successful, the skyway really ought to be left out of it. The only way to utilize it is by cannibalizing the streetcar's potential to force people onto it, at which point nobody will use it since nobody in their right mind is going to make 6 transfers to go a couple miles. We really need to design this to be successful on its own, leave the skyway out of it.

So you think we should forget about the skyway, build a streetcar that goes everywhere, let the skyway rot for 25 YEARS, then tear it down (since by then it would be a waste if no one was riding it)?

I think we should forget about the skyway when designing the streetcar, yes. It's not wise to saddle one with the other's problems, or to try and force unnatural synergies that result in a number of transfers that make gaining ridership impossible, much less not allow the streetcar to go to obvious destinations in order to avoid competing with the skyway. That's all silly and will result in two incomplete and failed systems instead of one.

OK, so do you think that the skyway will ever have a good number of riders if we pretend that it's not there when we build the streetcar? The streetcar is not feasible for crossing the river. The skyway is. An extension to San Marco is needed, IMO (along with the sports complex). But if we let the ridership stay the same, I'm almost 100% positive that this thing will get torn down in 2036. That would basically de-connect the Southbank and San Marco from Downtown. Or we could spend $100 million on building a bridge for a streetcar so it can be convenient with a minimum number of transfers? The only way the Southbank will be connected to the rest of the urban core is the skyway. We should get it to go other places also.

1:) The streetcar is perfectly able to cross the river, as I've demonstrated.

2:) No new bridge would be necessary, only adding rails to an existing bridge that's actually pretty well suited for it.

3:) The streetcar will be a failure if you force people to make 4-6 transfers to go a few miles. Forgetting crossing the river for the sake of argument, it should at a minimum definitely also serve the Bay Street entertainment district and the sports district, both of which people have been arguing on this thread that the streetcar shouldn't do for the sole purpose of forcing people to use the skyway. The point of the streetcar isn't to force people to use the skyway. That's liable to result in two failures instead of just the one we already have.