Why America Destroyed its Cities

Started by tufsu1, August 21, 2011, 07:20:41 PM

BridgeTroll

No doubt.  What I am unsure about is "cause and effect".  My theory/opinion is that the consumer drove the planning process where you seem to hold that the planning/planners drove the consumer.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

thelakelander

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 09:02:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal

Only a few US cities have surviving effective rail-based urban transport systems based on tram, metro, or elevated train; notable survivors include New York City, Newark, New Jersey, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, Washington D.C. and Chicago.

GM took out DC's mass transit network too.  What's in DC today has all been built since 1976.

"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 23, 2011, 09:08:19 AM
Cheap cars and cheap gas were a major driver too.  Europe had to import all of its oil so taxed the devil out of it to prevent trade imbalances and currency outflow.  Driving was expensive and public transport was supported by those high gas taxes. 

The US had its own oil so our gas was and still is cheap.  A couple of economists have pointed out that having oil under your ground has proved to be a curse for most countries.  It has saddled us with a car dependent infrastructure and the need to prop up and protect corrupt regimes around the world to keep it flowing.

The general public was basically given no choice.  With the viable transit alternative eliminated, and public policies implemented to force the development of low density sprawl, the low guy on the totem pole either had to buy a car or walk.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - Muhammad Ali

Dog Walker

I think class divisions had some impact too.  I can remember listening to an elderly lady when I was a kid who talked about how glad she was when she finally got a car so she wouldn't have to be on the streetcars with all of those "rough" people.

As a kid, I had trouble getting my head around what she meant by "rough".  Unshaven?  Bumpy skin?
When all else fails hug the dog.

thelakelander

#34
Robert Moses race separation techniques are littered all over urban Jax.  For example, our original expressway system (now I-95) was built along a corridor that separated white and black communities of that era.  By the time Springfield went dark, the City then began to sever the street grid between it and downtown, which has led to the creation of the "no man's" land between Union and 1st St. today.


The construction of the 20th Street Expressway (now MLK Parkway) in 1962.


Original Springfield/Downtown connectivity


Springfield/DT street grid today.  Unless you are familiar with the streets, it's pretty difficult to get into Springfield from Downtown.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - Muhammad Ali

Ocklawaha

#35

Just had to add the drama of a photo.

As for streetcar suburbs and their demise, there is more to the story then simply General Motors and their National City Lines conspirators (Firestone, Mack, Greyhound, Phillips, Standard Oil). By the end of the 1930's the nation was wrecked by depression and within that wreckage were the street railways.

Automobiles had made some inroads, but as we have seen in foriegn countries, that alone would not have killed American traction. The streetcar companies, including Jacksonville's were assesed paving charges for streets they operated in, maintenance, street sweeping and taxes including special railroad assesments. All of this in an atmosphere of complete price controls by the cities and states. The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935 caused great difficulties for the streetcar operators given that it made it illegal for a single business to own and operate both electric utilities and transit companies. (Gee, makes you wonder where the idea for that originated).
As the depression finally begain to end with the onset of WWII, streetcar companies were in bad need for major overhauls, maintenance that would have to be done largely on bank borrowed money through railroad trust certificates. Trouble become manifest when banks in most major markets turned them away, as the nations largest depositer was General Motors and their partners. War restrictions further delayed renewals as streetcar suppliers tooled up to produce military hardware.

As the companies were bought up, National City Lines made money on scrapping the rail systems and got kickbacks from all of the rubber tire transit industry suppliers.


QuoteOne of the things that was found out much later, was that the fixed transit systems (rail or trolley-coach) was much more stable to a community, i.e. was not as liable to change route for whatever reason, so that merchants etc. could count on transit being there for customers and employees. This was also true of "heavy rail". The prime example of that was Passaic NJ. The Erie (later Erie Lackawanna) ran down the middle of Main Street. Both the city and the EL wanted out. So it was decided to reroute all of the rail to the Bergen County Line and the former Lackawanna main and bypass downtown Passaic. Well the great revitalization didn't come. When there was no longer frequent rail most of the downtown business dried up and downtown Passaic has never been the same, to the point that some officials said in retrospect it was the worst thing they ever did to their city.

In total there were approximately 900-1,000 street railways and interurban systems that were 'visited' by NCL officials whose job it was to convince the leadership of both the companies and municipalities themselves that 'new' buses were cheaper, more flexible and superior in every way to rail vehicles. This was a sales pitch that had largely fallen appart by 1960, a time in which it seemed nearly all 'new bus' transit systems went broke and were pawned off to an unsuspecting public. We were duped.

QuoteCITIES SERVED BY NATIONAL CITY LINES
The following cities had transit systems which were at one time owned by National City Lines. Included are the years of NCL ownership, and the systems which NCL did convert from streetcars after acquisition. This conversion to buses has sometimes been referred to as "bustitution".

Also included are companies owned by Pacific City Lines, which until 1948 existed as a separate company, although with ties to NCL. Not included are certain companies, which at one time were owned by executives of NCL, while actually separate companies. These are just the mainstream of more direct NCL or PCL ownership, there were also a number of other GM-NCL 'holding companies' each of which owned a host of transit lines.


Aurora/Elgin, IL (1937-1966)
Beaumont, TX (1937-1972) BUSTITUTION!
Bellingham, WA (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Bloomington, IL (1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
Burbank, CA (1944-1946)
Burlington, IA (1941-1959)
Butte, MT (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Canton, OH (1940-1971)
Cedar Rapids, IA (1937-1966) BUSTITUTION!
Champaign, IL (1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
Danville, IL (1936-1964) BUSTITUTION!
Davenport, IA (1950-1974)
Decatur, IL (1936-1972) BUSTITUTION!
East St. Louis, IL (1935-1963)
El Paso, TX (1943-1976)
Eureka, CA (1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Everett, WA (1938-1946)
Fresno, CA (1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Galesburg, IL (1934-1936)
Glendale, CA (1940-1962) BUSTITUTION!
Great Falls, MT (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Houston, TX (1966-1974)
Inglewood, CA (1942-1946)
Jackson, MI (1936-1964)
Jackson, MS (1939-1966)
Joliet, IL (1934-1970)
Kalamazoo, MI (1936-1967)
Kewanee, IL (1936-1937) BUSTITUTION!
Lansing, MI (1936-1937)
LaSalle/Peru, IL (1936-1937)
Lincoln, NB (1942-1971) BUSTITUTION!
Long Beach, CA (1946-1963)
Mobile, AL (1939-1971) BUSTITUTION!
Montgomery, AL (1935-1974) BUSTITUTION!
Oshkosh, WI (1933-1934)
Ottumwa, IA (1941-1951)
Pasadena, CA (1940-1963) BUSTITUTION!
Peoria, IL (1955-1964)
Pontiac, MI (1936-1960)
Port Arthur, TX (1937-1950) BUSTITUTION!
Portsmouth, OH (1939-1959) BUSTITUTION!
Quincy, IL (1936-1966)
Rock Island, IL (1950-1974)
Sacramento, CA (1943-1955) BUSTITUTION!
Saginaw, MI (1936-1962)
Salt Lake City, UT (1944-1968)
San Jose, CA (1938-1963, 1970-1973) BUSTITUTION!
Sioux City, IA (1953-1967)
South Bend, IN (1956-1967)
Spokane, WA (1945-1968)
Stockton, CA (1939-1963) BUSTITUTION!
Tampa, FL (1942-1971)
Terre Haute, IN (1939-1955) BUSTITUTION!
Tulsa, OK (1936-1957)
Wichita Falls, TX (1950-1971)

National City Lines also had significant control of the following additional transit systems.

Baltimore Transit Co. (1944-1972) BUSTITUTION!
Jacksonville - Motor Transit Co. (1932-1945) BUSTITUTION!
Los Angeles Transit Lines (1945-1958) BUSTITUTION!
Oakland - Key System Transit Lines (1946-1960) BUSTITUTION!
Philadelphia Transportation Co. (1955-1966)
St. Louis Public Service Co. (1940-1963) BUSTITUTION!


OCKLAWAHA

tufsu1

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 09:13:17 AM
The general public was basically given no choice.  With the viable transit alternative eliminated, and public policies implemented to force the development of low density sprawl, the low guy on the totem pole either had to buy a car or walk.

sure....but the romantic notions of owning a shiny new American car in the 1950s and 1960s and the "freedom" of the American road didn't help....and those were enhanced by TV and movies.

The same thing may now be happening in reverse....teenagers are waiting longer to get their license and many aren't even excited about the "freedom" of driving.

thelakelander

#37
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2011, 01:39:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 09:13:17 AM
The general public was basically given no choice.  With the viable transit alternative eliminated, and public policies implemented to force the development of low density sprawl, the low guy on the totem pole either had to buy a car or walk.

sure....but the romantic notions of owning a shiny new American car in the 1950s and 1960s and the "freedom" of the American road didn't help....and those were enhanced by TV and movies.

The same thing may now be happening in reverse....teenagers are waiting longer to get their license and many aren't even excited about the "freedom" of driving.

I grew up across the tracks.  My family's story is different.   Based on what my parents (graduated from high school in 1964 and 66), uncles/aunts, grandparents, etc.  Their experience was the opposite.  A few had shiny new cars but they still remained in their urban hoods.  Those that didn't still had to rely on transit, which went down the tubes with the elimination of trolley services across the country.  Black flight didn't really start until after the Civil Rights era (late 60s/70s).  However, even with black flight, those with means were not presented with equal choices.  Basically, you could remain in an inner city neighborhood that has always been abused by their respective municipalities (many of Jax's black neighborhoods still had dirt roads in the 1970s) or move to places that really were nicer (maintained parks, decent schools, shopping, lower crime, etc.) at the time.  Many in my family picked up and moved to cities like Buffalo, Detroit, NYC, etc. which had more opportunities for them to raise their incomes than Florida at the time.  Nevertheless, even in those communities they still typically ended up locating in urban heavily black populated neighborhoods.

Across the tracks, shows like "Leave It to Beaver" and "Little House On the Prairie" had little to do with it.  We just wanted equal opportunities to enjoy a quality of life, that up to that point, was only reserved for a certain skin color.

Fast forward to today and I still don't believe that Jacksonville gives people a true equal choice of where to locate and live.  For example, the average person expects some average characteristics to be available in an urban setting that aren't in the burbs.  Those characteristics include maintained parks, a mix of uses, street level vibrancy, a variety of housing options, entertainment and reliable mass transit.  In Jax, we don't have a single environment that offers these things within a compact setting.  Thus, by default, many people end up heading to the Southside.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - Muhammad Ali

Ocklawaha


Lake, Durkeeville, Brentwood, San Marco, 5-Points vicinity of Riverside, Avondale, Fairfax, Murray Hill and Ortega are each close to what you describe, or at least could be. I think at some point I've actually gone to each of these neighborhoods for shopping, theater, parks or something else but its a miniature. With few exceptions we've lost the vibrancy and variety that made these fun neighborhoods to live/explore in. Imagine what they must have been like in 1912-28 at the peak of our own traction company because each one of them was a streetcar suburb.

Amazing that we had double or triple the number of sustainable/walkable suburbs in the teens and twenties of the 20Th Century then we do today. Completely gone are Fairfield, LaVilla and Brooklyn, and frankly Springfield other then its role as a housing area has faded from the scene too.

Other organic barrios within the city have passed into history leaving only a few houses or vacant lots. Yukon, Grand Crossing and Talleyrand come to mind. Beyond the reach of the streetcar system was Wesconnett which had a well defined village into the 1960's. Bypassed by highway 21 it began a death roll. Each of these once had all of the essential stores, churches, parks and services one would encounter in their daily needs.


Stephen, I'm willing to bet that the politicians that pushed the Utilities Holding act we're on the payroll of NCL/GM.
The only point I'd argue with the weki article is the line:


QuoteThese streetcar companies were generally unregulated, while the electric utilities were regulated.

Maybe somewhere they were unregulated, but in my experience, Florida, Oregon, California, Texas, Oklahoma, etc... they were all highly regulated. Florida was typical and the State Railroad Commission set the fares, cities had to approve everything from a single switch in the track to new routes, abandonment's, frequencies, paving, street sweeping, even the landscaping.

OCKLAWAHA

thelakelander

Ock, urban Jax has great bones.  However, we need to invest in the missing components (good public schools, reliable transit, diversity in housing stock, eliminating of public policy that discourages creativity, good parks throughout, etc.) that when combined, form a true vibrant urban environment or a place that justifies substituting residential living space for atmosphere.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - Muhammad Ali

Garden guy

Jax has great bones but i can't see this city spending the cash it's going to take to get us where we need to be as far as being a true metropolitan city..not until we have people not passing out building permits like they are candy...the sprawl continues and noones screaming....i'd love to see bussing of children across town to go to school...it's stupid and a waist of time and cash...kids should go to schools nearest to their home...short bus rides are fine but cross town is stupid..i don't know...it just seems like everyone knows what needs to be done but the powers that be don't have the balls to do it...i just see jacksonville staying the goodole boy city it's always been and the cash will continue to be waisted on the haves.

Ocklawaha

#41
Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 05:11:23 PM
Ock, urban Jax has great bones.  However, we need to invest in the missing components (good public schools, reliable transit, diversity in housing stock, eliminating of public policy that discourages creativity, good parks throughout, etc.) that when combined, form a true vibrant urban environment or a place that justifies substituting residential living space for atmosphere.

I completely agree, I just wanted to let those among us that might not know that Jacksonville has in the past had its act together. We were the 'American Tropics' in the 1870's-90's, The City Beautiful in the 1900-1920, Hollywood East, The Gateway City and then seemed to stumble and lose our direction. I think it actually started with a mayors campaign to clean up the city by tossing out all of the film makers, followed closely by the depression and the loss of our streetcar/transit system. From 1940 on we played tag with Tampa and Miami for supremacy and Orlando wasn't even on the radar through 1960. Creativity is exactly what we lack, no neon, no originality, no big or small pull away from the pack ideas, a city hobbled that spends its funds sending business people around the country so we can copy and bring home 'ideas'.

As a result we've become a city of unmaintained roadways, little or no beautification, of failing schools, high crime, and few solutions. The ugly duckling of Florida, the industrial armpit. But we have an answer, we'll ticket kids for riding their bikes on the sidewalks and nail merchants for putting up creative signage and God knows if you park too long downtown, we'll welcome you with a fat fine.

For perspective, when I rode the Pacific Electric from Los Angeles to Long Beach, Watts was the epicenter of activity. 

But I disagree with Garden Guy (again), if we all have the attitude that Jacksonville will 'never fix it's errors' then guess what? We never will. You'll do better with this famous quote which really applies to Jacksonville:


Quote"Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm."
~ Sir Winston Churchill

Simple human scale small policy changes would revolutionize our lives. 

OCKLAWAHA

Ocklawaha



Springfield, Riverside, Avondale, Fairfax, Ortega, circa 2015...   DARE TO DREAM OUT LOUD!

OCKLAWAHA

tufsu1

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
We need a clean zoning design.  One that looks at efficiency, service, beauty and health, and doesnt try to legislate morality, wealth or class.

performance zoning and form-based codes get at some of these issues

thelakelander

Ock, you know Jacksonville can't afford 19th century relics like rail.  How about something that's just like rail but better?

"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - Muhammad Ali