TO HELL ON A JTA COACH - DT LOOP

[arb]

It is a win, win, win, win, win. Its amazing how some people know more about the backbones of public transit, than the employees over at JTA do. You would think that money-hungry JTA, would have already done this already in an attempt to get more money for there 180 million dollar transportation "mall."

Semi-Intoxicated Rant:

I'm not sure what the huge holdup is regarding the transit terminal.  I feel like I should pull a Rosa Parks every morning and guide 15-20 people off the bus at Jefferson Station (Skyway) every morning, and show them that if the WS2 would just turn around here - we kill 35 minutes off the headways - thats turns a 50 minute headway into a 15 minute headway without changing a thing other than drop off points.  We increase the skyway at a minimun 200 riders per day from Rosa Park to Jefferson.  With one turnaround point, I just increased the Skyway by (200 riders per day * 300 days per year) 60,000 riders per year and eliminated (30 min per route * 18 trips per day * 300 days per year) 2,700 duplicate hours per year in service.  Am I a genius? No.  Do I do this daily?  Yes.  How many times per week do I exit the WS2 at the Jefferson Station and beat the bus to Rosa Park by at least 5 - 10 minutes?  Every day, monday through friday.

I know this is only one bus route, but imagine if the terminal was 3 blocks closer.  They would have thousands of people doing this daily in the same spot - not just JTA people, but also Amtrack and Greyhound - all using the same terminal.  Where would I buy my morning coffee and paper and breakfast sandwich?  Not at Blanding and Wilson anymore, but me and a few hundred other people would be buying the neccesities (sic if needed) at the terminal while waiting on the train, skyway. trolley, downtown loop bus service.  Either way, there's now several thousand people walking by your storefront on a daily basis.  2,000 people daily * 3.40 (very low estimate of an average check) = $6,800 gross revenue per day * 365 = $2,482,000 .  Ask Gate or Daily's or Hess if they would lower themselves to that average without the cost of having to fill/maintain gas tanks?  There emphatic answer is Fuck Yes!   Where do I sign?

Mayor Brown, if you're looking for a Private/Public Partnership, limit the transportation center to the Prime Osbourne and the Skyway terminal, force JTA to update their money routes and invite a convenience store to do the upgrades.  You'll end up with a nice compact station, at least one bus route that works the way public transportation should, shuts up the naysayers about the people mover (you just doubled the ridership) and generates a tax revenue from a city property from a business that is making a profit and happy to be there.

Sounds like a win, win, win, win, win.

[thelakelander]

Imagine, applying Non-RedNeck Westsider's concept of tying local bus routes into the skyway's end points to nearly every route that makes the insane loop along downtown's streets?  You would probably increase the skyway's ridership by millions over the course of a year, improve headways in every neighborhood and significantly reduce mass transit's annual O&M.  The increase in skyway use would then make it feasible to lease extra floor space in the skyway's gigantic stations for retail kiosks (ex. news stands, coffee stands, food outlets, etc.), which brings in additional revenue and riders.  Allow for train wrap advertising (more revenue generation) and you may have yourself a winner without spending one red cent in immediately expansion.  This seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Ocklawaha]

Imagine, applying Non-RedNeck Westsider's concept of tying local bus routes into the skyway's end points to nearly every route that makes the insane loop along downtown's streets?  You would probably increase the skyway's ridership by millions over the course of a year, improve headways in every neighborhood and significantly reduce mass transit's annual O&M.  The increase in skyway use would then make it feasible to lease extra floor space in the skyway's gigantic stations for retail kiosks (ex. news stands, coffee stands, food outlets, etc.), which brings in additional revenue and riders.  Allow for train wrap advertising (more revenue generation) and you may have yourself a winner without spending one red cent in immediately expansion.  This seems like a no-brainer to me.

While I agree with the concept, and have in fact been a cheerleader for such, its still a pipedream unless the Skyway actually reached the places those looping buses go... IE: ANYTHING east of Hogan.  This is what constantly prompts me to say the stadium line could be/perhaps should be built in 2 phases, PHASE ONE on Bay from Hogan to the area of Bay and Liberty or Cathrine or Marsh Streets. This still wouldn't cover the more northerly part of the downtown loop that generally passes east and west several blocks north of the river.

Build the Skyway ACROSS DOWNTOWN and send a northerly streetcar line ACROSS DOWNTOWN at about Duval Street and you really could wipe the buses off the downtown streets.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

It's not a pipe dream to better utilize your existing system by streamlining and eliminating duplicate operations.  Such a concept would also include tying in the PCTs to skyway end points to get DT riders to points where the skyway doesn't go.  That needs to happen regardless of whether its expanded or not (which in reality, its not going to be expanded soon).  Btw, why are we still living with this make belief that most transit riders are headed to downtown specific destinations?  The majority are trying to get to destinations outside of downtown.  The loops do nothing but make those trips more inefficient.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

True, but if you focus the Bay Street Trolley on the East side of town, then you can still have a 7-10 minute loop that circulates all of the people on Newnan St to another transit point.  We have all the pieces in place, even with an incomplete people mover - it's just that none of the system is being used to compliment the other. 

Eliminate the BST on the west side of central station (3 minute trains BTW) have it loop out to tallyrand (it's current route), back around newnan, criss-cross back along bay, adams, duval & ashley and then return down laura.  You hit every other major block, you increase ridership directly up the core (laura) and you still put more asses on the skyway. 

[Ocklawaha]

True, but if you focus the Bay Street Trolley on the East side of town, then you can still have a 7-10 minute loop that circulates all of the people on Newnan St to another transit point.  We have all the pieces in place, even with an incomplete people mover - it's just that none of the system is being used to compliment the other. 

Eliminate the BST on the west side of central station (3 minute trains BTW) have it loop out to tallyrand (it's current route), back around newnan, criss-cross back along bay, adams, duval & ashley and then return down laura.  You hit every other major block, you increase ridership directly up the core (laura) and you still put more asses on the skyway.

Might work with the addition of the JRTC, Rosa Parks and Kings Avenue, as BST route terminals, then run 'express' to the east side between Hogan and Talleyrand. But it would not be more efficient from a ridership standpoint as without adding the terminals someone working at in the Westside and living on Liberty Street would have to take the trolley to the Skyway then ride to the JRTC to catch a bus west, 3 vehicles and 2 transfers later they'd arrive 'hopefully' at their destination. Today that trip is basically seamless, get on and get off in the Westside 'hopefully' at your destination.

If we tied the BST on the Northside and added a new Southside link one running from Rosa Parks and the other from Kings Avenue you'd have a shot at it but it certainly wouldn't be seamless. Most any transit savvy person will do a single transfer, and it doesn't really matter if its from BUS to TRAIN to SKYWAY to STREETCAR to WATER TAXI to Whatever, but asking for double transfers makes the Skyway a wall separating everything east with everything west.

A completed Skyway (into the Eastside) would be more efficient from both an operations and passenger point of view.


OCKLAWAHA

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Agreed.  This was my attempt at a temporary solution to generate Skyway #s to give more credence to a skyway extention. 

But as you laid it out, that rider can hop onto a bus with no transfers, but it only comes every 50 minutes.  With my proposal, they can deal with a few transfers and hop a bus to the westside every 20 minutes.   It seriously takes between 13-22 minutes every day to get from rosa park to the proposed JRTC.  I've quit riding the loop and make my stand by waiting at the last stop before getting on 95. 

BTW - there is a stop at central station, jefferson station and CC station - go figure.

[Ocklawaha]

For the present time it might be beneficial to have the buses continue to run the loop BUT, no stops under the Skyway except at the 3 terminals.

Thus our imagined passenger could stay on and get right to Liberty, while his neighbor that works at the Omni, would transfer at Rosa Parks, this change would boost the Skyway eliminating duplication and continue the current Eastside access until such time as the Skyway and or Streetcar would make the entire loop redundant.

OCKLAWAHA

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Our imaginary passenger can.  And we can still have, at a minimum, 15 busses passing his stop throughout every hour.  Some heading west, some east, some south. 

Or......

We could use three busses (PCT Trolleys that are already overlapping) and hit that same stop every 6 minutes, cut 15-20 minutes off of the other 15 busses headways, each way and I think people might not worry about that extra transfer when they realize they're not having to leave as early in the morning and they're getting home earlier at night. 

Imagine the positive spin JTA could generate by slashing all headtimes a minimum of 10 minutes each way without spending a dime.  And to think, we haven't even looked into the actual route overlaps themselves.  Thats another topic. 

[Ocklawaha]

THREAD SPLIT FROM THE PROGRESS AT THE JRTC THREAD.

OCK

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Technically you're only circling hell on the DT Loop.   

[thelakelander]

Any idea of what percentage of bus riders are heading to Liberty? My guess is not that many. Thus, I'd be willing to eliminate the DT loop from most routes.  Other than a few crosstown routes, I'd also be willing to stop most neighborhood buses at skyway terminals force skyway transfers to the JRTC or Rosa Parks as well. Such a move would reduce O&M and bus headways.  Such a move would also get better utilization out of the skyway.  If starting from scratch, I wouldn't do things this way but we have to work with what we have and accept money isn't growing on trees to quickly pay for massive expansions any time soon.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

The largest clusters of riders outside of the RP terminal (Largest to smallest):  Independent @ Pearl (southbound and Riverside), Newnan @ Adams (southbound, eastbound & riverside) & Market @ Beaver.  There are approx. 15 busses each way per hour and rarely is it a destination - typically people are getting on here - not getting off.

As is well known, there is no skyway station for the latter two, but skyway's Central station feeds the Independent @ Pearl nicely - so there's no reason to have a station there - move them to the JRTC -  Eliminate all of those busses making a loop, eliminate 15-20 minutes off of each headway, increase the skyway ridership, use the Bay St trolley to shuttle the east side around and we haven't spent a dime. 

While I'm on it, use the (now rebranded) DT Trolley as a free ride for all becasue due to more people taking the skyway, you'll have more people purchasing weekly & monthly passes so they don't have to carry around change.