Skyway on the Move: An exclusive thread on EXPANSION and IMPROVEMENT!

[danem]

I say expand the skyway across to the stadium...and maybe to riverside, put the streetcar everywhere else that the skyway will never reach.

Frankly I think a streetcar should exist (basically) where that trolley bus runs now. Riverside seems like a neighborhood that a streetcar fits into. Same with the beaches. Maybe Riverside needs a north/south and the skyway can take east/west to downtown.

I'm planning to actually ride the Skyway for the first time tomorrow, I hope to add more once I'm more first-hand informed.  

[ChriswUfGator]

Look, there is no point expanding the Skyway anywhere else downtown, until it is first expanded to somewhere people actually live! E.g., Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc. The thing already goes to within just a short walk of most places downtown, continuing to add new stops in that area is a waste, and will NOT do anything to increase ridership. To increase ridership, and make the system self-sustaining, you need to connect places people need to go to and from, e.g. business with residential. Otherwise, nobody rides. You can't tell me a new $10mm station at the BOA tower is going to increase ridership, when the existing station in Hemming Plaza is literally two blocks away. The reason it's a failure is that it doesn't connect things that need connecting, e.g. business areas with residential areas with shopping areas. That's the basic formula for intra-city passenger transport folks. We need to do that, first.

[dougskiles]

Completely agree with you, Chris.  People say that the skyway doesn't go anywhere.  It does go somewhere - downtown.  It doesn't START anywhere.  Get it into the neighborhoods!

[acme54321]

Expand it to San Marco and the Stadium

[JeffreyS]

RAP is not going to let a modern looking skyway extend into Riverside.  Streetcar Riverside, sports complex and Springfield, Skyway San Marco and Sports Sports Complex.

I would love to see the skyway go to Durkeeville.

[Tacachale]

The stadium expansion would certainly increae the ridership substantially (and a ridership boost will boost peoples' confidence in the Skyway). Unless I'm mistaken, though, aren't there other reasons for not wanting to expand the skyway to the stadium?

[iMarvin]

For one, a station would never be built at the BofA tower. It's too close to central. Anyways, I agree that the skyway should be extended into Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield, but the stadium would the easiest to build because it's just right down the street. A streetcar should go down Park St or San Marco. But we shouldn't put a streetcar in a place where the skyway can only go like Riverside Ave. And like I said before, if a streetcar is built, you can forget about the skyway ever being extened again. Streetcars make sense, but we need to finish the skyway first.

[ChriswUfGator]

RAP is not going to let a modern looking skyway extend into Riverside.  Streetcar Riverside, sports complex and Springfield, Skyway San Marco and Sports Sports Complex.

I would love to see the skyway go to Durkeeville.

I dunno. Maybe we should ask them? If the route were sensible, I doubt they'd mind. The way to handle a historic district is easy, you just run the skyway route down Riverside Ave. and then under 95 to a station in 5 points in the park. Then you don't have to demolish a single thing. To get to other areas, the route could just track down US 17 and then cut south directly to a small station in Avondale, so you'd only have one smallish section of track that could be placed down the center of a wide street (there are several possibilities) without having to demolish any property. I highly doubt RAP would have any problem with that. What RAP has a problem with is COJ's usual method of doing things, which is to level entire neighborhoods for hare-brained schemes that never get off the ground, a' la Brooklyn, LaVilla, etc. That would be a no-go, but as long as the route is sensibly planned and doesn't call for leveling a pile of historic structures, I bet RAP would throw open arms around it. Remember, the stations can be very small because in an already-urban area like this, almost all of the users will be walking to the station, not driving. So you don't need parking like at the "Park & Ride" style stations they've been building for it in other places.

[Ocklawaha]

The stadium expansion would certainly increae the ridership substantially (and a ridership boost will boost peoples' confidence in the Skyway). Unless I'm mistaken, though, aren't there other reasons for not wanting to expand the skyway to the stadium?

I think you hit on the edge of a ridership avalanche. Just a couple of blocks from the stadium is A.P.Randolph, Fairfield and the Eastside neighborhoods, in fact Randolph was built as a trolley suburb. A Multimodal station something like the Kings Avenue Garage with a built-in bus, streetcar, Skyway station would blow the socks off the non game day Skyway ridership, AND people could still ride it to games.

We actually have computer models of that station, I'll see if I can dig them out.

OCKLAWAHA

[Tacachale]

The stadium expansion would certainly increae the ridership substantially (and a ridership boost will boost peoples' confidence in the Skyway). Unless I'm mistaken, though, aren't there other reasons for not wanting to expand the skyway to the stadium?

I think you hit on the edge of a ridership avalanche. Just a couple of blocks from the stadium is A.P.Randolph, Fairfield and the Eastside neighborhoods, in fact Randolph was built as a trolley suburb. A Multimodal station something like the Kings Avenue Garage with a built-in bus, streetcar, Skyway station would blow the socks off the non game day Skyway ridership, AND people could still ride it to games.

We actually have computer models of that station, I'll see if I can dig them out.

OCKLAWAHA

Thanks, Ocklawaha, that would be interesting to see.

Also, are there any estimates for how much the different expansion plans might increase ridership? (I apologize for any repetition; i'm new here. )

[Ocklawaha]

This is my original sketch upon which the models were created.

OCKLAWAHA

[ChriswUfGator]

The football stadium is not best bang-for-buck. The events there are spaced widely apart, so while you'll have great ridership, at least for one day, the other 99% of the time it will be a ghost town train. The way to truly increase ridership is to expand into residential areas, that will bring riders day after day, after day, after day, this month, next month, next year, etc. The impact is enormous compared to a huge spike in ridership that only lasts for a day, and just parts of a day at that, before dropping off again. You want steady ridership.

[Timkin]

Look, there is no point expanding the Skyway anywhere else downtown, until it is first expanded to somewhere people actually live! E.g., Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc. The thing already goes to within just a short walk of most places downtown, continuing to add new stops in that area is a waste, and will NOT do anything to increase ridership. To increase ridership, and make the system self-sustaining, you need to connect places people need to go to and from, e.g. business with residential. Otherwise, nobody rides. You can't tell me a new $10mm station at the BOA tower is going to increase ridership, when the existing station in Hemming Plaza is literally two blocks away. The reason it's a failure is that it doesn't connect things that need connecting, e.g. business areas with residential areas with shopping areas. That's the basic formula for intra-city passenger transport folks. We need to do that, first.

This makes sense.  Extend it to where people/vibrancy exists.  Everyone knows I am an Annie Lytle hugger, so for more reasons than  I can count, I would like to see it extend to Annie Lytle FIRST, San Marco second, the Stadium/MetroPark/other points in the area.

Annie Lytle NEEDS this to happen.. Frankly , Ock's idea for this building as a station/mixed use facility seems  1) the most likely way to get funding to not only accomplish doing it, but funding to overhaul the building and bring it back to life; it has sat vacant much longer than it was in use as a School.  2) a practical and feasible use for the building , given its context 3) the most likely idea to reconnect the building AND the Skyway and various other methods of transportation directly into the 5 points/ Riverside area, and finally,4) a leg in which , IMO ridership would increase, taking people into Downtown.

 Frankly , given its over 30 year track record of proposals that for one reason or another , never came to pass, I think at this juncture , it is THE ONLY chance the School has, for being spared.

[Charles Hunter]

Cross the FECRR to San Marco, and down Riverside to BCBS/RAM, retail in the stations.  Like others* have said, I think the Sports Complex line would be overcrowded a dozen times a year, and empty most of the rest of the time.  However ... if some TOD deals could be worked for the Shipyards, and as thelakelander has suggested, the Sports Complex parking lots, that line could make sense.  


* OMG I agree with Chris!

[Ocklawaha]

I fully agree with you Chris, but what I think EVERYONE overlooks is the 'purification purge' that eliminated FLORIDA AVENUE, it's huge circular park (under 2nd base) with a lake, it's vibrant business district, and the oldest group of surviving early Jacksonville homes that managed to survived the fire. The Arlington Expressway and the MLK - Hart Ramps have neatly created a very vanilla playground on the bones of a rich and sweet chocolate history. Right over that road is a freaking huge community of homes and apartments, as well as the remaining businesses along A.P.Randolph. It was really white of the city to install a marker to the homes and businesses they ripped down so we can ride a Ferris wheel.

It is this neighborhood that I think would double the Skyway Ridership overnight, my multimodal station could be built on either side of the expressway, or on BOTH SIDES. Eastside/FAIRFIELD would keep the turnstiles humming all week long, and a single game such as the Sun's recent contest with Birmingham packed in 15,000 people. If just 20% of those frustrated riders jumped on the Skyway, you've doubled the weekly ridership. The Jaguars would blow it off the scale. Add to this San Marco and possibly Shand's via Public Health and the VA Clinic. You want crowded trains? Let's go get them.

Also check your PM's for a message

OCKLAWAHA