Can We Really Justify the American Healthcare System on Any Measure?

[jcjohnpaint]

and the funny thing I find is this is why our county hates our government so much.  They don't care for us.  They let the private sector take care of us and oh they do
I feel if there was a medical care for everyone deal- If the government tried to take it away there would be a revolution on their hands.  I'm loving these Florida uprisings about their fear of Medicare being taken away.  Good for them.  The people will win. 

[BridgeTroll]

How about this measure?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110426/D9MRJH1G1.html

Number of 100-year-olds is booming in US


Apr 26, 5:26 PM (ET)

By MATT SEDENSKY

BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - Not too long ago, Lonny Fried's achievement would have dropped jaws. TV and newspaper reporters would have showed up at her door. She would have been fussed over and given a big party.

But turning 100 isn't such a big deal anymore.

America's population of centenarians - already the largest in the world - has roughly doubled in the past 20 years to around 72,000 and is projected to at least double again by 2020, perhaps even increase seven-fold, according to the Census Bureau......

[Dog Walker]

Bridge, this is a pattern that is occurring throughout the developed world, not just in the US. 

We still lag way behind in the other measures of "health" like infant mortality, teen pregnancy and death from "lifestyle" diseases like diabetes and early death from heart disease and cancer.

We do not have "The Best Healthcare System in the World" by any measure despite what some of our politicians say.

[BridgeTroll]

The title says... "any measure".  Longevity would seem to be at least one of, if not the most important measure of health.  Perhaps the title of the thread is ... perhaps exaggerated?

[cityimrov]

and the funny thing I find is this is why our county hates our government so much.  They don't care for us.  They let the private sector take care of us and oh they do
I feel if there was a medical care for everyone deal- If the government tried to take it away there would be a revolution on their hands.  I'm loving these Florida uprisings about their fear of Medicare being taken away.  Good for them.  The people will win. 

The American health care system is much worse then private vs public sector.  It's more like, forced privatization though specific entities with enforcement by the government.  What we have in the US is the worst of the private sector muddled with the worst of the public sector working together as a system to take every dollar we have. 

When people say government isn't the answer, they are sort of right from what they see from our system.  Government makes the health care process awful.  At the same time, when people say private corporations isn't the answer, they are right too from what they see from our system.  Our system somehow makes both public and private health care look bad.

[FayeforCure]

The title says... "any measure".  Longevity would seem to be at least one of, if not the most important measure of health.  Perhaps the title of the thread is ... perhaps exaggerated?

Actually on longevity the US rates only 49th in life expectancy!!!

Inefficiency Hurts U.S. in Longevity RankingsBy NICHOLAS BAKALAR
Published: November 29, 2010

By any measure, the United States spends more on health care than any other nation. Yet according to the World Fact Book (published by the Central Intelligence Agency), it ranks 49th in life expectancy.

Why?

Researchers writing in the November issue of the journal Health Affairs say they know the answer. After citing statistical evidence showing that American patterns of obesity, smoking, traffic accidents and homicide are not the cause of lower life expectancy, they conclude that the problem is the health care system.

Peter A. Muennig and Sherry A. Glied, researchers at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University, compared the performance of the United States and 12 other industrialized nations: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland. In addition to health care expenditures in each country, they focused on two other important statistics: 15-year survival for people at 45 years and for those at 65 years.

The researchers say those numbers present an accurate picture of public health because they measure a country’s success in preventing and treating the most common causes of death â€" cardiovascular disease, stroke and diabetes â€" which are more likely to occur at these ages. Their data come from the World Health Organization and cover 1975 to 2005.

Life expectancy increased over those years in all 13 countries, and so did health care costs. But the United States had the lowest increase in life expectancy and the highest increase in costs.

In 1975 the United States was close to the average in health care costs, and last in 15-year survival for 45-year-old men. By 2005 its costs had more than tripled, far surpassing increases elsewhere, but the survival number was still last â€" a little over 90 percent, compared with more than 94 percent for Swedes, Swiss and Australians. For women, it was 94 percent in the United States, versus 97 percent in Switzerland, Australia and Japan.

The numbers for 65-year-olds in 2005 were similar: about 58 percent of American men could be expected to survive 15 years, compared with more than 65 percent of Australians, Japanese and Swiss. While more than 80 percent of 65-year-old women in France, Switzerland, and Japan would survive 15 years, only about 70 percent of American women could be expected to live that long.

In narrowing the blame to the American health care system, the researchers first eliminated several other factors. Obesity and smoking are the most important behavior-related causes of death, but obesity increased more slowly in the United States than in the other countries and smoking declined more rapidly, so neither can explain the differences in survival rates. Homicide and traffic fatality rates have remained steady over time, and social, economic and educational factors do not vary greatly among these countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/health/30life.html

BTW BT, that doesn't contradict your article if you consider that the Netherlands with a population of 16 million obviously has less centenarians than the US with its over 300 million population. For longevity, what matters is what percentage of the population reaches 100 years old.............and according to the World Fact Book of the CIA, 49 countries have a higher percentage of people reach 100 years old than the US.

NO BT, you've been lied to when people told you the US has the best healthcare system in the world.

It plain and simple doesn't.......not on ANY measure!!

[BridgeTroll]

Like many things... I guess it comes down to who is presenting the data, and what point they are trying to make.  Using your suggestion... I went to the World Fact Book.  It appears the US death rate(8.38 per 1000) is better than nearly all those countries you listed... including the Netherlands(8.85 per 1000).

I'm not here to praise our health system... but I am certainly not going listen to your bumper stickers.  Yep... it has warts... yep... it should be improved... but it certainly is not the monstrosity preached by you and yours...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html

[wsansewjs]

The title says... "any measure".  Longevity would seem to be at least one of, if not the most important measure of health.  Perhaps the title of the thread is ... perhaps exaggerated?

Actually on longevity the US rates only 49th in life expectancy!!!

Inefficiency Hurts U.S. in Longevity RankingsBy NICHOLAS BAKALAR
Published: November 29, 2010

By any measure, the United States spends more on health care than any other nation. Yet according to the World Fact Book (published by the Central Intelligence Agency), it ranks 49th in life expectancy.

Why?

Researchers writing in the November issue of the journal Health Affairs say they know the answer. After citing statistical evidence showing that American patterns of obesity, smoking, traffic accidents and homicide are not the cause of lower life expectancy, they conclude that the problem is the health care system.

Peter A. Muennig and Sherry A. Glied, researchers at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University, compared the performance of the United States and 12 other industrialized nations: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland. In addition to health care expenditures in each country, they focused on two other important statistics: 15-year survival for people at 45 years and for those at 65 years.

The researchers say those numbers present an accurate picture of public health because they measure a country’s success in preventing and treating the most common causes of death â€" cardiovascular disease, stroke and diabetes â€" which are more likely to occur at these ages. Their data come from the World Health Organization and cover 1975 to 2005.

Life expectancy increased over those years in all 13 countries, and so did health care costs. But the United States had the lowest increase in life expectancy and the highest increase in costs.

In 1975 the United States was close to the average in health care costs, and last in 15-year survival for 45-year-old men. By 2005 its costs had more than tripled, far surpassing increases elsewhere, but the survival number was still last â€" a little over 90 percent, compared with more than 94 percent for Swedes, Swiss and Australians. For women, it was 94 percent in the United States, versus 97 percent in Switzerland, Australia and Japan.

The numbers for 65-year-olds in 2005 were similar: about 58 percent of American men could be expected to survive 15 years, compared with more than 65 percent of Australians, Japanese and Swiss. While more than 80 percent of 65-year-old women in France, Switzerland, and Japan would survive 15 years, only about 70 percent of American women could be expected to live that long.

In narrowing the blame to the American health care system, the researchers first eliminated several other factors. Obesity and smoking are the most important behavior-related causes of death, but obesity increased more slowly in the United States than in the other countries and smoking declined more rapidly, so neither can explain the differences in survival rates. Homicide and traffic fatality rates have remained steady over time, and social, economic and educational factors do not vary greatly among these countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/health/30life.html

BTW BT, that doesn't contradict your article if you consider that the Netherlands with a population of 16 million obviously has less centenarians than the US with its over 300 million population. For longevity, what matters is what percentage of the population reaches 100 years old.............and according to the World Fact Book of the CIA, 49 countries have a higher percentage of people reach 100 years old than the US.

NO BT, you've been lied to when people told you the US has the best healthcare system in the world.

It plain and simple doesn't.......not on ANY measure!!

Lot of thoughts has gone into this simple answer.

The root of all the lifestyle and health issues in America: High Fructose Corn Syrup.

-Josh

[cityimrov]

Like many things... I guess it comes down to who is presenting the data, and what point they are trying to make.  Using your suggestion... I went to the World Fact Book.  It appears the US death rate(8.38 per 1000) is better than nearly all those countries you listed... including the Netherlands(8.85 per 1000).

I'm not here to praise our health system... but I am certainly not going listen to your bumper stickers.  Yep... it has warts... yep... it should be improved... but it certainly is not the monstrosity preached by you and yours...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html

Aside from the opening article of this thread and going back to what the average person thinks.  I don't think people are too worried about our health care as in our doctors, nurses, etc.  They are worried about how our health care as it's distributed to people works. 

As an analogy, our health care system can be like those JEA horror stories told in the other part of this board.  JEA provides good power that runs our homes and such.  I don't think anyone is complaining about that.  It's the billing, rates, customer service, etc that everyone has issues with.  The middleman between you and your power.

In Healthcare, it's the stuff that's between you and your doctor that I hear the most complaints about.  I think the US has some of the best doctors, researches, etc in the world.  You can get some type of useful care in the US.  You can probably get some really great care here.  The question is how much hassle, red tape, and borrowed money are you willing to be flocked with to get there?  Health care is the #1 cause of bankruptcy here in the US.  You get the healthcare but in exchange, you must give up everything you ever owned to obtain it.

[FayeforCure]

Like many things... I guess it comes down to who is presenting the data, and what point they are trying to make.  Using your suggestion... I went to the World Fact Book.  It appears the US death rate(8.38 per 1000) is better than nearly all those countries you listed... including the Netherlands(8.85 per 1000).

I'm not here to praise our health system... but I am certainly not going listen to your bumper stickers.  Yep... it has warts... yep... it should be improved... but it certainly is not the monstrosity preached by you and yours...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html

Wow, death rate:

This indicator is significantly affected by age distribution, and most countries will eventually show a rise in the overall death rate, in spite of continued decline in mortality at all ages, as declining fertility results in an aging population.

The death rate accurately indicates the current mortality impact on population growth.

Hmmm, it's probably due to an aging population in the Netherlands and their very low teenage pregnancy rates in the Netherlands vs the US where teenage pregnancy significantly contributes to population growth. The US therefor has a younger average population than the Netherlands hence the lower death rate in the US.

It says absolutely nothing about the healthcare system in the US.

On all meaningful measures therefor the US  healthcare system continues to be the monstrosity that is indicated by the 49th place for mortality.

The quality healthcare is for the few well-heeled folks, but there is no liberty and justice for all in healthcare in the US.

Most people who go in for routine colds may never find out, but if you are unfortunate enough to get cancer or another life threatening condition, you will likely have to deal with private insurance rationing or recission of coverage, or jacked up rates that make you loose coverage.

It is no wonder many Americans are relegated to collection jar healthcare.

It is a crying shame and borderline criminal.

[Ocklawaha]

You are all on glue.

There is no cure for that.

No it's OPIUM actually, because the coca leaves don't do a damn thing!

OCKLAWAHA  

[FayeforCure]

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000017902

NotNow and BT, here some interesting facts: David Blitzer, Chairman of the S&P 500 Index committee says single payer holds down costs................BT, the truth shall set you free.

S&P's latest health care costs, report from february 2010 through february of this year shows health care costs rose 6.2%. That's good in a sense that it's down slightly from 6.3% in the previous 12-month period, but obviously way above the rate of inflation for everything else. Here first on cnbc, David Blitzer, chairman of the s&p 500 index committee. Thanks for being with us.

Good morning mark.

What do you have for us?

Health care costs continue to rise but the rate of increase continues to creep down a little bit. so the news isn't good but it's not getting worse. maybe a touch better. Why are costs escalating at -- i don't know -- three four times the rate of overall inflation? What's going on here?

Health care, despite the excitement about technology and drugs, health care is a labor intensive activity and people, labor costs a lot of money which seems to be the key factor driving it up. so, if i may, logically then you wouldle find the worst or the most inflation occurring in hospitals.

You would. Indeed on the commercial side you do. On the medicare side, you don't. I think that brings up a different aspect. Over the last few years we have heard a lot of arguments about single payer plans versus other kinds of plans. Single payer means uncle sam pays for the health care.

We pay him.

Right.

Medicare for people over 65 is a single payer plan and, indeed, we consistently see smaller rates of increase in medicare items than we do in commercial insurance, the kind of insurance that employers provide for employees.

Okay. I'm going to leave that lying there because some of our viewers now are going apoplectic thinking you have just endorsed single payer health care. I just reported the numbers. Believe me, I understand. you're quoting the facts. Some people think facts are partisan. I don't know how they get there, but they do. David, thank you very much. Appreciate your input. Thank you.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000017902

Glad to see that in this case there is no wilfull misinformation allowed to infect the poorly informed.

[BridgeTroll]

Yeah... but people die at a faster rate in the Netherlands than they do here...

[FayeforCure]

Yeah... but people die at a faster rate in the Netherlands than they do here...

BT, the death rate in the Netherlands is higher due to a more aged population.

Remember people in the Netherlands don't breed as prolific as in the US.

Hey, even I had my 5 children in the US, helping reduce the US death rate

As the birthrate in European countries drops well below the "replacement rate" â€" that is, an average of 2.1 children born to every woman â€" the declining population will first be felt in the playgrounds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html

[Overstreet]

Single payer holds down cost......... maybe but our system would screw it up.

My dad got into the doughnut hole on his perscription drugs plan by $124. The Government decided to issue checks to Medicare folks in the amount of $250 to help with the doughnut hole. He got the $250 check to cover his $124.