Redefining "Downtown"

[Jimmy]

Well, you don't build a courthouse or library or other civic building because you expect a ROI.  At least, not in my estimation.  Or roads for that matter.  So, it's not even a question of returns.  I noticed a new sidewalk section for the faux trolley in Avondale.  Hardly the kind of TOD I would be hoping for.

I need to get a clearer understanding of how we get from zero streetcars to a thriving streetcar line in Jacksonville.  I know the research is all right here.  I'll dig into it.

[Ocklawaha]

MIAMI


TAMPA


ORLANDO


FT. LAUDERDALE


KEY WEST


BOCA RATON


JACKSONVILLE


NAGASAKI

Going back to what geauxtigers31 said, I think part of the perception of downtown in Florida is twisted by South Beach, Ybor, Fort Lauderdale, Duval Street, and Orange Avenue... These are all CBD locations but none of them sleep.

By the way, the original boundaries of downtown were listed in an old directory that Lakelander, Stephendare and I found in the Library. MYRTLE on the west, FLORIDA on the east (A.P.Randolph) the river and Hogans Creek on the north and south. If I recall this was about 1920, when indeed business and commerce (including the Bordello Row) roared into the new decade...Everywhere in the period papers is boosterism, spirit, pride and expansion, growth and optimism. Then we dianimited Fairfield and the thriving Florida Avenue, the Negro Trade Academy and the great circular park.

Next the geniuses of City Hall took out LaVilla, the entire Davis Street, and Bay Street corridors which were lined with stately historical red brick buildings and blue glazed brick streets, down came the great Atlantic and East Coast Railroad Station and one by one the grand old homes on Houston Street.

Closer to the CBD, were the "parlor houses" where courtesans, beautiful women in their teens and twenty's worked in lavish comfort. The houses were the most modern in the city and featured a piano player, and servants, as well as a bouncer. The "boarders" were high class and the madame discreet. Out of respect, we didn't dynamite these homes, we bulldozed them right down to the last brick. Further out Houston and Bay were "Bawdy Houses," common brothels or our very own red light district, where women a bit older and perhaps a bit more spent, could work out their room and board on their backs. These large old buildings got no mercy either, as a sinister joke took them down with "wrecking balls." Finally out by the current JTA yard, were the "cribs," and "hog farms" otherwise known as the last stop on the road to perdition, of all of the houses in our city, guess which ones we left a few examples of? It's that exact backward stupidity that I think our old time residents are bitching about.

Oh, and when we finished taking out LaVilla, trashing not one but two railroad stations, we tore down the worlds largest Railway Express Terminal and a huge Railway Post Office building, ironically about the same size as the one JTA now wants to build across the street. Next we moved on to Brooklyn, and as you can plainly see today, everything from the streetcar barn, power house and academy, to the buzzing bustle of Riverside Avenue was plowed under, the nonsense coming to a halt after marking most of the businesses on Park Street for removal. At least they haven't gotten to the all of the historic buildings on Myrtle, and there are still a couple of shotgun houses in the neighborhood. Really though, this IS the BOLD NEW CITY OF THE SOUTH, so if you want photographs get them today before these too become lifeless slabs, litter heaps, rubble and weeds.

Honestly if Jacksonville were New Orleans, we wouldn't have done a damn thing after that tragic storm because hey, it looks like home.

OCKLAWAHA

[rainfrog]

Jacksonville is closer to this than we may feel, simply because we have confused our CBD with our Downtown.

The problem with Downtown, as I see it, is one of definition and connectivity.
First, people define downtown as what I would define as the Central Business District.

The only problem I'm seeing is that you're using a different city as your reference point, when every city defines neighborhoods and uses names in their own way. In New Orleans, the words Downtown and Uptown have different connotations than they do in most cities, referring to large areas, several neighborhoods each, down-river and up-river. In NO, Downtown historically means the neighborhoods downriver from Canal Street, which of course doesn't include the CBD. Thus, the word "Downtown" could not be used to describe the CBD as it often is in other cities, and they simply call their CBD something else. This Wikipedia article explains it better than I can.

In many large American cities, Downtown is pretty much synonymous with CBD, or even just a subset (think Atlanta, where Downtown is really just part of a string of 3 CBDs.) Jacksonville is pretty average in that respect.

With any geographical label, if people know what you're talking about, that's all that really matters.

Charlotte calls its CBD "Uptown". It has been my experience that a lot of out-of-towners mistakenly call New Orleans' CBD "Downtown" because of what they're used to in other cities, and I would guess that happens with Charlotte, too. It's also been my experience that the farther out a person lives in the suburbs, the more inclusive they are with the word "Downtown". I've heard suburbanites refer to all of St. Louis city proper as Downtown and I just have to roll my eyes.

[Timkin]

I think Ocks pictorial of the other cities , Jax , and Nagasaki are pretty much on the mark. I think we lead the world in demolition of buildings and  surface parking where they once stood.  Here is hoping the next administration can think outside this derelict box.

[geauxtigers31]

These responses have been helpful.
Ultimately my point was just that it seemed to me that there is this fixation, almost an obsession on turning the CBD into a 24 hour hot spot, and people seem to think that downtown will just be a failure until that happens. And we get down about it. "Downtown Jax is dead after 6 PM, Bummer Man". If we could just be content to let the area around the Modis building, Hemming Plaza, etc. be a 9-5 work zone we would start feeling better about Downtown Jax and realize there is more to Downtown then just the CBD.
I think the connectivity issue really should be THE focus. Pour energy into improving the outer neighborhoods (Five Points, Springfield, San Marco) then push that energy into the inner neighborhoods (La Villa, Brooklyn, Cathedral District, Stadium) and then focus on connecting them all in the center. I would throw San Marco in there too because really the area around Prudential is part of the CBD (we should be content that it is a 9-5 area) and San Marco is the southern front of this push inward.
The "feeling better" part sounds simple, but I really feel like the psychology and negative perception Jacksonvillians have about Downtown is a big obstacle.

[geauxtigers31]

@ rainfrog

I realize that the naming of areas is usually an organic/historic sort of thing, but there is something about it being called the Central Business District that makes it "okay" to slow down in the evenings. It is a psychological type thing. Obviously none of us are really in a position to just start renaming things, but everything starts with an idea. Also I think if we referred to it as the CBD instead of downtown we wouldn't have as strong a desire to try and make it into something it doesn't need to be, at least not at this stage.

[thelakelander]

Regarding the Charlotte comment, Uptown is actually a series of neighborhoods that includes a CBD style area. It's really no different than the New Orleans example. Also, Ybor, Las Olas and South Beach aren't within any CBD areas. Ybor is a mile away from DT Tampa and South Beach is on the other side of Biscayne Bay from Miami. All of these places just happen to be walkable areas that were not completely taken out by the wrecking ball. They are what LaVilla, Brooklyn, Sugar Hill and Springfield's Main Street should have been.

[thelakelander]

Well, you don't build a courthouse or library or other civic building because you expect a ROI.  At least, not in my estimation.  Or roads for that matter.  So, it's not even a question of returns.

Its just in your estimation.  All of those are projects that were/are sold to this community as economic development stimulators.  Here are a few old links to articles describing some of them as just that:

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-12-05/story/will-jacksonvilles-shiny-new-courthouse-lure-developers-jurys-still-out

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2011-02-11/story/outer-beltway-look-future

All also cost a hell of a lot more money than a simple fixed rail transit line that would reconnect urban walkable districts would.  In addition, like the rest of the items mentioned above, reliable mass transit in a city the size of Jacksonville is a quality of life offering to its residents as well.

I noticed a new sidewalk section for the faux trolley in Avondale.  Hardly the kind of TOD I would be hoping for.

Yes, faux trolleys and rubber wheeled transit simply don't spur permanent private sector development.  Fixed transit does and would do more for the urban core than a DDA or something like a convention center ever would.  Here are a couple of quotes from a story on the Delmar Loop streetcar project, I came across during a brief stop in St. Louis last year.

On busy Market Street in downtown San Francisco, people avoid nearly empty buses but pack restored streetcars, many of which were built in St. Louis in the 1940s.

Across the nation â€" in cities such as Memphis, Tenn., Little Rock, Ark., and New Orleans â€" plans are under way to restore or extend downtown streetcar lines, which are popular with tourists and residents.

As many as a half-dozen modern or vintage trolley lines might soon join the nearly 30 such systems operating in U.S. cities â€" and St. Louis hopes to be one of those getting on board.

"Streetcars are making a comeback because cities across America are recognizing that they can restore economic development downtown â€" giving citizens the choice to move between home, shopping and entertainment without ever looking for a parking space," said Peter Rogoff, administrator of the Federal Transit Administration. "These streetcar … projects will not only create construction jobs now, they will aid our recovery by creating communities with the potential to be more prosperous and less congested."

San Francisco's streetcar line is an integral part of the Bay Area's transit system.

Ford said daily ridership peaks at 24,000 during the summer tourist season but added that the line also gets heavy use by daily commuters connecting to light rail and the city's subway system.

He said streetcars do more for economic development than buses.

"Rail projects are very expensive," Ford said. "But rail projects tend to be permanent. And you get the economic development around stops that you normally don't see with bus operations."

full article: http://www.stltoday.com/business/article_19a93293-77db-570c-b3ac-a720bea8bf14.html

I need to get a clearer understanding of how we get from zero streetcars to a thriving streetcar line in Jacksonville.  I know the research is all right here.  I'll dig into it.

Its easy.  You simply connect urban pockets of density and activity with reliable and attractive fixed transit and integrate that fixed transit spine into your existing mass transit system.  

When you do this, you already start off with a ridership base from the consolidation of previous bus lines and by providing direct reliable service to places with high residential, employment and commercial density (areas that typically have parking constraints, such as Five Points, our medical centers and historic districts like Riverside).  Since fixed transit historically spurs TOD, as time goes on, it builds up its own ridership base and gives off the feeling to the casual user that it takes you where ever you want to go.  Sort of like the feel you get with a DC metro.  People tend to forget that it took it over 30 years of expansions and spurring adjacent TOD to get to the point of where it is now.

In Miami, Metrorail and Metromover were looked at as great failures when they opened in the 1980s.  In the 1990s, that community realized the benefit for integrating mass transit with land use to spur TOD and jobs in areas where public infrastructure already existed.  Now ridership has peaked on both systems and downtown Miami continues to pack in residents, new jobs and businesses, despite the real estate bust.

We have tons of good examples across the country to follow.  Phoenix, Houston, Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Dallas and Memphis are a couple of great examples of sunbelt sprawlers that have had success with their initial LRT/Streetcar lines to learn from.

[Jimmy]

That's a lot of good information.  I realize that some sold those projects as economic development opportunities.  And for some construction firms, they might have been.  However, we needed a new court house.  We needed a new library, stadium, etc.  These were civic needs for quality of life of our residents.  Which, perhaps, is a type of ROI, but not so easily quantified in dollars.

Transit, I know, can be different.  It addresses a need (connectivity and transit) and also becomes part and parcel to the sense of place.  It has the potential to return a lot of value in ways that are easy to quantify and also more difficult.  Maybe you have a formula that translates civic pride and utility into a dollar figure.  Those of us on the periphery of these topics aren't highly concerned about ROI, TOD, or other factors that are required to "sell" the ideas.  We just want a way to move between Avondale and the CBD and Springfield without the need of cars, oil, and gasoline.   

[thelakelander]

That's a lot of good information.  I realize that some sold those projects as economic development opportunities.  And for some construction firms, they might have been.  However, we needed a new court house.  We needed a new library, stadium, etc.  These were civic needs for quality of life of our residents.  Which, perhaps, is a type of ROI, but not so easily quantified in dollars.

Fixed transit is exactly the same thing.  If we trace the history of our urban core, we'll find that its been in decline since we started ripping away the connectivity between the walkable neighborhoods.  A look across the country will also show that the cities that have had the most success in bringing back their downtowns and adjacent neighborhoods have used fixed transit as one of the forms of mobility to bring that long lost connectivity back, while stimulating sustainable infill growth, which improves the core's civic quality of life at the same time.  The sooner we embrace this, the easier it will be to not only bring DT back, but the Brooklyns, Durkeevilles, Brentwoods, Moncriefs and LaVillas as well.

Transit, I know, can be different.  It addresses a need (connectivity and transit) and also becomes part and parcel to the sense of place.  It has the potential to return a lot of value in ways that are easy to quantify and also more difficult.  Maybe you have a formula that translates civic pride and utility into a dollar figure.  Those of us on the periphery of these topics aren't highly concerned about ROI, TOD, or other factors that are required to "sell" the ideas.  We just want a way to move between Avondale and the CBD and Springfield without the need of cars, oil, and gasoline.

Ultimately, there is no exact dollar ROI dollar figure, although the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) states for every public $1 spend on transit, it spurs $5 or $6 in associated adjacent private investment.  You're success will go up or down dependent on your project's ability to effectively serve its desired ridership base and integrate with the surrounding context and land uses.  During the 1980s, this wasn't realized with most projects and it took time for communities to get it right (a few like Jax and its skyway experience, still struggle).  However, in the 1990s and 2000s, just about every project bought to life has been done so with an intention to integrate that mobility investment with transit supportive land use and success has been greatly realized.  All we really have to do is follow the proven path and not make things more difficult and time consuming than it has to be (we really struggle with keeping things simple when it comes to topics like this and DT development).

Also, the key to remember with a project like this, is that multiple problems can be addressed.  These include urban mobility (which you mentioned above), downtown revitalization, economic development in adjacent neighborhoods, job creation in distressed areas, affordable housing (this makes more market rate sense in areas like New Springfield and Brooklyn than it does in the heart of the Northbank CBD) and a reduction of crime in areas where new activity and infill begins to take place.

Here is some information about the economic development benefits of streetcars.

Steven Polzin, director of mobility policy research at the Center for Urban Transportation Research at the University of South Florida in Tampa, agreed that streetcars create a more stable climate for development and a sense of uniqueness.

"They're very popular urban amenities," he said. "I call them 'transportainment.'"

A 2006 study by Reconnecting America, a nonprofit group that promotes mass transit, claims that Portland, Ore., saw a 1,795 percent private return on the city's 2001 $55 million public investment in a 4.8-mile streetcar line. Portland boasts 12,000 daily riders.

The study also claims Tampa got a 1,970 percent return on the $48 million it spent to install a 2.3-mile line in 2003 - even though its line isn't meant for commuters and has poor ridership.

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2008/06/30/story14.html

36 Reasons Streetcars Are Better Than Buses
http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/06/03/36-reasons-that-streetcars-are-better-than-buses/

Modern Streetcar Study Peer Review
http://visioncincinnati.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/streetcar-data-in-other-cities1.pdf

[rainfrog]

Regarding the Charlotte comment, Uptown is actually a series of neighborhoods that includes a CBD style area. It's really no different than the New Orleans example.

It's 4 small districts, but nothing like New Orleans. No part of Uptown Charlotte is even a mile from the center of the CBD, it's dominated by the CBD, the CBD straddles all 4 districts, and Uptown is what the CBD is known as. Very different beast from New Orleans, where most people today don't include the CBD in either of their definitions of Uptown or Downtown, and both terms describe neighborhoods as far as 5+ miles from the CBD.

Uptown Charlotte is more like Downtown Jacksonville, only with more residential in its versions of LaVilla, Brooklyn, Cathedral District, etc. It's a good example of why there's no excuse for our downtown to only be office space, especially considering our popular definition of downtown includes much more land than Uptown Charlotte (with Brooklyn and the stadium district included), and even though Charlotte has WAY more office space crammed into a smaller area, they still pull off having more variety of uses and much more residential and still plenty of room for more. Heck, we could easily fit more residential and accompanying retail/amenities in the shipyards than is currently present in Charlotte's entire First Ward. We have so much space to work with!

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

We have so much space to work with!

And I'm going to say that many of the people that contributed to the sprawling issues that we are contending with now said the same thing. 

What we need is more stuff in less space.

[Garden guy]

We have so much space to work with!

And I'm going to say that many of the people that contributed to the sprawling issues that we are contending with now said the same thing. 

What we need is more stuff in less space.

What we need are less conservative leaders that have thier hands in the pockets of the city sucking it dry..i'm sick of seeing the same conservative right wing nuts leading our city right into the ditch...if you like what jacksonville has done to its downtown...if you like that the city has been allowed to get to big for it's britches...vote for Mr Hogan...if not...vote for the other guy...its not the city...it's the city's leaders that have lead us to where we are today.

[hillary supporter]

Great thread. i guess its my turn. what i want to present here is my own personal experience in trying to take personal action of myself as an individual to develop downtown Jacksonville. Pardon me for indulging on many here at the forum that have heard my story times before. I tried to relocate downtown to buy a building to reside in as an established artist with my wife. I was willing to pay $100s of thousands of dollars to purchase properties accordingly. What we ran into 5 times was property speculators that had bought up these decrepid buildings at the urging of Mayor Maloney after the approval of the courthouse in the late 90s. Since then the values have gone down down down (which allowed me an opportunity to get some affordable land for my wife and me to cultivate an artistic scene in downtown). But those hand full of developers have no concern about the development of DT, which they use a pseudonym of DVI. Until the city, and the citizens, give in to their terms, there will be no further( if you consider the last few years any) development forward. I believe most of the city has realized this once they look closely at the issue and city hall has responded accordingly. Chris Hionedes is NOT our friend. Just recently, Nullspace gallery was removed from their space DT with a months notice. The landlord have every right to do so. But the paradox itself will continue to plague DT development.
But, the big point here is even though we dont have a cultural center in downtown, it is emerging here in the urban communities surrounding it.
This is where sound development is occurring.
And for what its worth. this past weekend, my friend from Manhattan came to visit. We began at Underbelly to see 3 bands, one from NYC. then we went to lomax lounge a walk of less than 100yds to see local band after the bomb baby and two Atlanta Athens GA bands and then went to Jackrabbits and saw several national bands on tour.I didn't even go to the beaches. He was really knocked out and loved it. I tell you here..... THAT IS NOT HAPPENING IN NYC!
While I'm not saying to write off Downtown, urban and cultural development IS happening in the surrounding areas. And i find it competitive with ANY others here in the country.
A point here has to be a new definition for many of "Downtown". As such is a relative term. i'm defining it as those urban communities pointed out here in metrojax itself. I f one does this, you will find that we do have a very viable "downtown".
The biggest and hardest personal tragedy is the failure of the Skyway, a state of the art fixed and rapid mass transit system. But while we can hold on (or out) for its future, if not we, i will continue to do what i can to produce Jacksonvilles young, viable and VERY competent artists to the rest of the community, if not the nation and world. Our art district is coming!!!! Stay tuned!

[thelakelander]

Regarding the Charlotte comment, Uptown is actually a series of neighborhoods that includes a CBD style area. It's really no different than the New Orleans example.

It's 4 small districts, but nothing like New Orleans. No part of Uptown Charlotte is even a mile from the center of the CBD, it's dominated by the CBD, the CBD straddles all 4 districts, and Uptown is what the CBD is known as. Very different beast from New Orleans, where most people today don't include the CBD in either of their definitions of Uptown or Downtown, and both terms describe neighborhoods as far as 5+ miles from the CBD.

Other than perception, all are about the same.  The main differences are:

1. Scale - Urban Charlotte has always been significantly smaller than urban Jacksonville and New Orleans.

2. Building Fabric - New Orleans is a pretty preserved city full off old building stock.  Charlotte was a small city that tore down most of its historic stock before having an urban infill boom.  Jacksonville, on the other hand, had density like New Orleans, tore it all down and hasn't done anything worthwhile since.  This gives off the appearance that Jacksonville's actual urban core is much smaller than it really is.  Unlike Charlotte, we have an empty hole that surrounds downtown where density used to exist.  Fill in that hole and you'll have miles of continuous neighborhoods with decent walkability (like a New Orleans).  When that happens, the isolation falls apart and neighborhoods tend to blend together to create one major walkable core.



Here is a set of old aerials of urban Jacksonville during the 1940s, from the Lost Jacksonville: Sugar Hill article a few years back.  Before we went Detroit in the ring around the CBD, our core was every bit as connected at street level, as the feeling one gets when walking in a place like New Orleans or Boston.  Although I agree that we can get more out of the downtown core, I also understand where geauxtigers31 is coming from and agree with what he's stated.