JTA Responds to Skyway Criticism

[thelakelander]

Doug, Dashing Dan, it's actually quite the opposite. A streetcar, even one from scratch, is significantly cheaper to construct than even extending the skyway incrementally. It would also allow you to do the most important thing for mass transit success in the urban core. That is to actually penetrate dense neighborhoods and destinations that already exist, while creating economic development opportunities along the way. In addition, because of the cost and actual congestion need (at least the Riverside line), the first phase to Park & King would be funded 100% by the mobility plan. Other than that, the annual O&M is cheaper, it integrates better with existing historic neighborhoods and it has a +100 year success record. All in all, if people want to see the skyway expanded, a streetcar complementing it, that's also funded without a tax increase or public referendum is one of the best ways to get there. Neverthess, none of this means the skyway can't be expanded incrementally when the opportunity presents itself. However, without private dollars, it will be significantly more difficult, given it's history, upfront costs, high O&M costs and the fact that other than the Atlantic extension, no funding is in place to do any skyway extension.

It is not a this or that question, the best transit in the world features a healthy mix of modes and choices, which even at it's best is all good transit really is...a CHOICE. A network made up of 3-4 distinct modes, each sharing an equal part of the whole,  which weave and knit the city together like a fine fabric, will always work better then a single modal choice equal to in size to the entire system.  So the answer is YES you build the Skyway ASAP, and YES you build the streetcar ASAP, and the BRT, and the Commuter Rail, and the Water Taxi's, and the true Trolley Bus, Schweeb, Bike Share, etc...

Yes, but in reality we can't do them all at once.  We simply don't have the money.  Thus, you have to prioritize.  Tonight's election results are pretty damaging to JTA's desire to keep that gas tax going in 2017.  Their on the clock to prove their worth.  Realistically speaking, the most cost efficient and easiest thing to do right now is to work to improve the existing system before spending any money on major expansion projects. 

In our case right now, Skyway is funded to Atlantic, and Streetcar from Bay and Newnan to Park and King...

If the mobility plan is approved and officially put in place, only the streetcar line is in the 10-year priority funding plan.  While the skyway plan is in, I believe that particular zone's first project is the expansion of Philips Highway between University and JTB.  So most likely, unless privately funded, that skyway expansion to Atlantic is still 10 years or more out.

As they move into the next phase, engineering, as we are self funding, it is time to apply pressure to extend the Skyway on to the new VA clinic/Shand's and/or East Bay/Stadiums. At the same time we need to start planning the next phase(s) of streetcar.

At this point, all of this is 2020 and beyond.

It's time to apply pressure to get a Skywalk connection between Baptist-Aetna and the current "San Marco Skyway Station", and it's time to change the name of that station to "SOUTHBANK," reserving San Marco for the real San Marco.

Better integrating our existing facilities with their surroundings is what we should be doing right now.  This makes our already made investments more sound and gives JTA the credibility to make an argument for extending the gas tax in 2017.  As for renaming the station, I'd be in favor of selling naming rights.  Imo, we need all the money we can get.

The "s"  is also funded, so time to look beyond Liberty and 21st Street and start thinking North Main-Panama, Busch-Dunn Ave, Airport Road. Streetcar in the next phase breaking out of the city streets at Beaver and Palmetto, and shooting north on old railroad right-of-way to 21st and on to Gateway Mall... Even though this will involve bridging the NILE RIVER, the payback will be myriad, and with Congress stacked in our favor, NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT.

Let's make sure we get the initial projects (riverside streetcar and S-Line) actually get off the ground first.  We still have a long hard fight ahead.

[stjr]

I've said all along, Lake, that it would be foolhardy for mass transit advocates to think that local taxpayers will support having one of everything on the menu here in Jax. Tonight's election, as you note, seems to confirm that.  Priorities and choices have to be made. It's part of why I believe the Skyway is damaging these other better and preferable transit options.  Let's focus on streetcars and commuter rail and stop muddling the discussion with the distracting Skyway, especially talk of expanding it.  Even you and Tufsu agree its years out at best so there is no need to keep bringing it up presently.

[JeffreyS]

I've said all along, Lake, that it would be foolhardy for mass transit advocates to think that local taxpayers will support having one of everything on the menu here in Jax. Tonight's election, as you note, seems to confirm that.  Priorities and choices have to be made. It's part of why I believe the Skyway is damaging these other better and preferable transit options.  Let's focus on streetcars and commuter rail and stop muddling the discussion with the distracting Skyway, especially talk of expanding it.  Even you and Tufsu agree its years out at best so there is no need to keep bringing it up presently.

You have a skyway post I completely agree with.

[Dashing Dan]

My argument is on mainly behalf of improvements to the existing skyway network.  Without significant new property developments that would pay funds into the mobility plan, streetcars and skyway extensions are both very iffy at this point.

While no one was watching, the skyway has gotten to be somewhat unreliable, at least with regard to the escalators and the fare collection equipment.  Those problems need to be fixed now.  Also, it would be nice to see some additional joint development at or near existing skyway stations, like the hotels at the Kings Avenue parking garage.

[thelakelander]

I definitely agree with Dashing Dan on the point above.  Taking advantage of and better utilizing what's already in place should be a larger short term priority than any type of expansion talk.  Integrating the existing skyway stations with land development opportunities and the existing bus network are achievable goals that can happen without major financial assistance.

[jacksoninjax]

Expanding the Skyway to the sports complex won't be a "panacea" for downtown's ills.   However, it will be a step in the right direction.  Whether we like it or not, the Skyway exists and the city (JTA) has three options.

1. Don't expand it and accept the fact that it will always lose money and will forever remain downtown's white elephant.
2. Tear it down and pretend it was all a bad dream. 
3. Bite the bullet and expand it to the sports complex in order to generate higher and consistent ridership and, in turn, more revenue. 

Sure, there will be costs associated with an expansion.  But that's much better than Option 1 (stagnant ridership and little chance of increased revenue) and Option 2 (re-paying the federal government millions of dollars in grant money as a penalty for dismantling the Skyway). 

Also, the use wouldn't be limited to home football games.  What about events at Metro Park, concerts at the Arena, Jax Sun’s baseball games, Florida-Georgia game, and the Jax Fair?  There is a huge disconnect between the sports complex and the rest of downtown (Northbank, Landing and Southbank).  Imagine if people actually used the outlining parking areas (including the Kings Avenue garage) and took the Skyway to the sports complex, with the option of stopping along the way at restaurants and nightclubs (and hopefully one day the Shipyards complex) that will surely begin to sprout up along the Bay Street and Forsyth Street corridors.     

As it is now, whenever there are events at Metropolitan Park, Arena and Stadium, thousands of people park in the outlying parking areas (convention center, Kings Ave Garage, etc.) and have no choice but to take a meandering (and jerky) bus ride to the sports complex/Metro Park areas.  Under JTA's current scenario, the buses whisk people to and from the sports complex as quickly as possible, bypassing the few night clubs and restaurants that downtown does have, and then afterwards drops them off at parking lots on the edges of downtown.  This only encourages people to get back in their cars for the mass exodus from downtown.  It’s just as bad for people who park near the stadium.  Instead of a traffic flow that encourages people to stop on Bay Street or the Landing after a game, they city places barricades and one way exits that only encourage, if not forces, people to immediately leave downtown after a game or concert. Does this make any sense at all?

One of the first lamest mistakes that the city and JTA did was not extend the Skyway to the most obvious place-The Sports Complex.  There would be little, if any, parking problems if the city built additional parking structures outside of the downtown core but still reasonably close. We already have the Kings Avenue Garage within easy walking distance to the San Marco Station and the convention center parking lots are right next door to another station.  By extending the Skyway to the Sports Complex, JTA will have connected all major areas of the downtown core. And, if there were a couple of stations along the way, people could actually stop at the Landing or Bay Street for a drink or bite to eat and then hop back on the Skyway for a game or concert.

Downtown business owners should be furious with the city and JTA for making it so difficult for people to explore downtown after a game or concert because of the current situation.  Is there any wonder that our downtown is struggling and cities like Charlotte have a thriving downtown nightlife?  Jacksonville city leaders and JTA, I implore you to reconsider this ill fated bus plan and go back and finish what your started with the Skyway Express.  By connecting downtown and the Southbank with the sports complex (2 or 3 sq. miles) via the Skyway, you will make it easier and more enjoyable for visitors and residents to explore our beautiful “river city by the sea.”  If the city and JTA can’t succeed in connecting this 3 square mile area, the heart of our city, what makes them believe they can connect the entire city through bus rapid transit. 

[Timkin]

I would favor expansion of the Skyway / Bringing back Streetcars to various routes over adding ONE more "stinky fake trolley "

[Jdog]

IMHO the main point of the Skyway should be distributing.  If Union Station and the surroundings are used vigorously (a commuter train station, Amtrak, Greyhound station, BRT station, etc.), then you need the Skyway.  In fact, the Skyway might even be the correct mode, in my view.  Despite the Skyway's unpopularity, I can't see people coming into downtown sometime in the future on a first transit system and then hopping onto a second transit system that has to be involved in some level of street traffic downtown.  Ideally, you'd pay to get to Union Station (train or BRT, etc.) and use the same pass to get onto the Skyway for free.  There's a north and south track coming out of convention center station that should shuttle, quickly and seamlessly, through the northbank and southbank, respectively.  As far as the Skyway being more than a distributing mechanism, I can only see, sometime in the distant future, possibly networking into Five Points, San Marco.   

 

[Timkin]

I think the Skyway could ,on its own be a monumental success if it went to destinations where people would spend money,,,I E  Five Points / San Marco.   I have never been in favor of scrapping it.. since it exists already, we should...rather than the expense of tearing it down and putting it in a landfill or whatever, utilize it by making it useful to the masses.. and not a select few..  As it is , it would never be a money-maker.. may not be if expanded, but it certainly stands a better chance with the latter. Combining it with streetcar / rail would be wonderful .

[Ocklawaha]

Downtown business owners should be furious with the city and JTA for making it so difficult for people to explore downtown after a game or concert because of the current situation.

They are... BOTH OF THEM!

Thanks in no small part to the "We tried fixed transit in Jacksonville, it won't work, we quit..." crowd down at JTA.
We have a huge development tool right under our noses and can't see the forest for the concrete piers.
(sound of crickets chirping)

OCKLAWAHA

[exnewsman]

While no one was watching, the skyway has gotten to be somewhat unreliable, at least with regard to the escalators and the fare collection equipment.  Those problems need to be fixed now.  Also, it would be nice to see some additional joint development at or near existing skyway stations, like the hotels at the Kings Avenue parking garage.

The JTA Board today approved a major move forward on this. According to Blaylock on hi sTV show, JTA had already reviewed RFPs on a new fare colelction system. The top vendors had been identified. Now the Board approved negotiations with those vendors. Blaylock said we should see the new fare boxes in place later this year. I think today's action verifies that. This will be a major step in the right direction for all of mass transit in Jacksonville.

[Ocklawaha]

I definitely agree with Dashing Dan on the point above.  Taking advantage of and better utilizing what's already in place should be a larger short term priority than any type of expansion talk.  Integrating the existing skyway stations with land development opportunities and the existing bus network are achievable goals that can happen without major financial assistance.

We agree that massive change would result if JTA would just focus a bit of creativity to the Skyway. On MJ we have come up with several methods to increase ridership, lower or eliminate fares and cut operating costs. This should be a number one priority.

Conversely we cannot accept the status quo as downtown isn't dying, it's DEAD! Even if JTA gave us the Skyway, without some investment in infrastructure everything we accomplished would still be like serving free champagne and slippers to the passengers on a plane, because it has no wings.  Nice place to visit, but it ain't going anywhere!

OCKLAWAHA