Landing Starbucks to Close

[Ocklawaha]

THE OTHER SIDE OF STAR-SCHMUCKS COFFEE... CONTAINS PECULIAR ADULT THEMES AND CERTAIN, SELECT, LINGUISTICALLY DIACHRONIC PHENOMENA, OTHERWISE EXERCISING A VERBOSE PROLIXITY OF ADJECTIVES, THE CONTENT OF WHICH MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR RIGHT WING PROTESTANT CONSERVATIVES... REALLY!

http://www.youtube.com/v/Xi9BRgjvOlk?fs=1&hl=en_US

http://www.youtube.com/v/sQ9nmqErGoU?fs=1&hl=en_US

http://www.youtube.com/v/TcwAwTPX3IQ?fs=1&hl=en_US

http://www.youtube.com/v/8329ylacXNU?fs=1&hl=en_US

http://www.youtube.com/v/vXKh3_Vojjs?fs=1&hl=en_US

And then they have the damn gall to close the stores! B!#@$#ds!


OCKLAWAHA

[urbanlibertarian]

I gotta believe that Toney Sleiman wouldn't be raising the rent on existing tenants (Twisted Martini, Starbucks) unless he is pretty damn sure that he can get that higher rent from someone else.

[Traveller]

Java Junction was still in the Bank of America lobby last time I checked (my employer moved across the river in October).  It's owned by a very sweet Croatian woman who bought the business two years ago.  I rarely drink espresso drinks, but the coffee she served was 10x better than Starbucks.  She also baked scones that I swear are addictive as crack, but you have to get them early as they tend to sell out before 9:00.

[simms3]

^^^Starbucks is as good a tenant as a shopping center can ask for.  In a center like the Landing where any retailers even considering it know the challenges and know that there are a lot of underlying issues, raising the rent seems like a very bold move.  Clearly no national retailers want to be there.

As it stands, there is no way in hell the Landing is going to attract any upscale tenants.  When major cities with much larger, much more thriving downtowns have serious issues attracting upscale retailers, fitness clubs, restaurants, bars, and service providers, downtown Jacksonville is not even on the radar.

The best the Landing can hope for right now are independent retailers and middle of the line or slightly less than middle of the line national retailers (if that, I don't think any national retailers want to even consider it no matter how low the rents right now).  Raising the rents seems absurd.

I'd like to get my hands on the financials and the current rent roll.  What are the remaining terms?  What are the various rents right now?  Is the center cash flowing or is it bleeding money?  How is the CAM being handled financially with so few tenants who can afford to pay the kind of CAM necessary in that center (I mean large space is taken up by food court, gallery space, and museum...the center has to be maintained, which means it can be assumed that that falls as a recoverable expense on a few retailers and restaurants...are they paying aggregate a 100% fixed CAM divied up in pro rata shares?).

The dynamics of this center are very interesting...Sleiman must be using corporate revenue to bolster the center at this point.

***Also, "rents increasing" is completely relative.  Every tenant in the Landing pays different rents with different stipulations.  Some may increase base rent at varying intervals, some may be %sales volume based, some may step up annually or a certain amount after 5 years, etc etc.  There's no way any of us know that information unless someone on here works for Sleiman and is divulging confidential info (and what's the vacany like in there?).

[JeffreyS]

starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

Jacksonville is a real coffee city Martin Coffee roasting here since 1957 and Condaxis 1958 both are excellent and you can get their coffees at many places around town and they roast about 99.99% of anything with a local label.  Martin will even give barista lessons. I just wish Martin would open that original coffee shop on bay next to where Mark's is now.

[tufsu1]

I gotta believe that Toney Sleiman wouldn't be raising the rent on existing tenants (Twisted Martini, Starbucks) unless he is pretty damn sure that he can get that higher rent from someone else.

well it sure didn't work with Twisted....when they walked, Sleiman begged the owners of Benny's/Vito's to help out....they supposedly agreed to open an Irish Pub in the space...that was 8 months ago

[simms3]

Also, Stephen, maybe there aren't 50,000 workers downtown (that would include Northbank and Southbank), but I can promise you that even with all of the vacancy there are more than 10,000 daytime workers.

Potential walking distance buildings:

1 Independent Square
Bank of America
Suntrust
Life of the South
CSX
150 Water St
Enterprise Center
AT&T
BB&T
Hyatt Hotel
Omni Hotel
City Hall Annex

Even with the vacancies, there is a daytime population of at least 10,000 within a short walking distance of the Landing and there are almost 1,400 hotel rooms and ~500 residents within walking distance, too.  Not to mention the small but steady stream of tourists.  At least a third of the office population drinks coffee daily.  Can we say that there is a potential daily base of 650 office workers who should be walking into Starbucks each day to purchase some joe?  That works out to 50/hour for 13 hours a day (7 am to 8 pm).  650 customers a day, $2 average purchase (low end for Starbucks I would think), open 360 days, there is $468,000 revenue a year.  Let's say that with CAM and other pass throughs and actual rent, $25-30/SF is not out of the ordinary and perhaps even a little high for the market, probably 1,000 SF of space and they are paying a measly $25,000-30,000/year in rent leaving about $440,000 to cover other expenses (and Starbucks has relatively high margins) and pay a few baristas.

Frankly I am shocked that that location could not even do that, let alone higher.

Now retailers will say that they are reluctant to enter the Atlanta market because performance there does not equal other large metros in the NE and in CA and spending habits aren't as strong.  I wonder what retailers say about the Jacksonville market (not that it's highly on the radar, but with SJTC and all I'm sure talks have been had).  It does not bode well that Starbucks cannot even survive in our downtown.  Other retailers will take notice.  Retail center investors will take notice.  There will be shockwaves with this.  Regency Centers is right across the street...I wonder what they have to say.

[tufsu1]

As it stands, there is no way in hell the Landing is going to attract any upscale tenants.  When major cities with much larger, much more thriving downtowns have serious issues attracting upscale retailers, fitness clubs, restaurants, bars, and service providers, downtown Jacksonville is not even on the radar.

correct...and not just because of downtown's issues.

face it...Sleiman is running the place into the ground...heck, he won't even paint the exterior...plus, there aren't many upcale establishments at any Sleiman shopping center around town...it isn't his specialty.

of course if his chosen leader, Mr. Hogan, takes over at City Hall I'm sure everything will magically be awesome  

[simms3]

2 Things (disclosure: I am the opposite of a coffee conoisseur):

1) Jacksonville is not a coffee town (no SE city is)

2) Independent coffee shops are hit or miss, but I have never even heard of a city where independent coffee shops exist without Starbucks.  Starbucks is consistent and does up the competition ante.  Starbucks may have bitter beans on average, but it's not poor quality, offers an experience that coffee consumers and people in general want, and offers a price point that most people who purchase coffee by the cup are willing to afford.

[uptowngirl]

So both the landing and 11E locations are closing?

[Garden guy]

Also, Stephen, maybe there aren't 50,000 workers downtown (that would include Northbank and Southbank), but I can promise you that even with all of the vacancy there are more than 10,000 daytime workers.

Potential walking distance buildings:

1 Independent Square
Bank of America
Suntrust
Life of the South
CSX
150 Water St
Enterprise Center
AT&T
BB&T
Hyatt Hotel
Omni Hotel
City Hall Annex

Even with the vacancies, there is a daytime population of at least 10,000 within a short walking distance of the Landing and there are almost 1,400 hotel rooms and ~500 residents within walking distance, too.  Not to mention the small but steady stream of tourists.  At least a third of the office population drinks coffee daily.  Can we say that there is a potential daily base of 650 office workers who should be walking into Starbucks each day to purchase some joe?  That works out to 50/hour for 13 hours a day (7 am to 8 pm).  650 customers a day, $2 average purchase (low end for Starbucks I would think), open 360 days, there is $468,000 revenue a year.  Let's say that with CAM and other pass throughs and actual rent, $25-30/SF is not out of the ordinary and perhaps even a little high for the market, probably 1,000 SF of space and they are paying a measly $25,000-30,000/year in rent leaving about $440,000 to cover other expenses (and Starbucks has relatively high margins) and pay a few baristas.

Frankly I am shocked that that location could not even do that, let alone higher.

Now retailers will say that they are reluctant to enter the Atlanta market because performance there does not equal other large metros in the NE and in CA and spending habits aren't as strong.  I wonder what retailers say about the Jacksonville market (not that it's highly on the radar, but with SJTC and all I'm sure talks have been had).  It does not bode well that Starbucks cannot even survive in our downtown.  Other retailers will take notice.  Retail center investors will take notice.  There will be shockwaves with this.  Regency Centers is right across the street...I wonder what they have to say.

Steady stream of tourist?...you're so funny...

[peestandingup]

starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

Jacksonville is a real coffee city Martin Coffee roasting here since 1957 and Condaxis 1958 both are excellent and you can get their coffees at many places around town and they roast about 99.99% of anything with a local label.  Martin will even give barista lessons. I just wish Martin would open that original coffee shop on bay next to where Mark's is now.

I know about those guys & sure appreciate that they're here. They do awesome roasting for sure. But to be fair, every city has coffee roasters (most of them who have been in the biz for decades). I just meant that there's hardly any real coffee culture here as far as coffee houses & baristas go. I've noticed it has gotten better in just the few years I've lived here though, but I still wouldn't call it a coffee city just yet.

On the roasters side, I've asked the people at Condaxis if they've ever thought about adding a full service "serving room" to their establishment. A lot of roasters are starting to do that. Think of it sorta like Bold City Brewery does with their tasting room. Here's one that does just that in little tiny Americus Georgia that I sometimes get mail order beans from: http://www.facebook.com/CafeCampesino

They said they've thought about it pretty seriously, but still haven't really been committed to it for one reason or another.

[blizz01]

The irony is that you smell coffee all day in this city (a la Maxwell House)......... 

[Jaxson]

2 Things (disclosure: I am the opposite of a coffee conoisseur):

1) Jacksonville is not a coffee town (no SE city is)

2) Independent coffee shops are hit or miss, but I have never even heard of a city where independent coffee shops exist without Starbucks.  Starbucks is consistent and does up the competition ante.  Starbucks may have bitter beans on average, but it's not poor quality, offers an experience that coffee consumers and people in general want, and offers a price point that most people who purchase coffee by the cup are willing to afford.

I never quite understood how people can drink down a hot cup of coffee on a hot, humid summer day.  I grew up enjoying hot cocoa and other hot beverages in the dead of winter, but didn't fancy drinking hot liquids when the temperature is in the upper 80s...

[finehoe]

I never quite understood how people can drink down a hot cup of coffee on a hot, humid summer day. 

That's why they sell frappacinos.

Besides, many people want their hot cup of coffee in the morning no matter what the weather forecast is for the day.