Gov. Scott's Rail Decisions To Impact Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

The private sector would pay for any cost overruns. This would be a legally binding agreement, with no risk to the taxpayers.

This statement to me is the scariest.  This is something that can not be guaranteed.  Do the politicians think we are that stupid?  It's like the statement about jobs "saved."  It's really not quantifiable, but sounds great when making an argument for the position.

As mentioned above, what stops these private companies from declaring bankruptcy to absolve their liability?  

It's really no different than the Home Builders throughout Florida who filed bankruptcy to run from litigation regarding unfinished developments, chinese drywall, etc.  Make lots and lots of money and then when it runs out, bail out with a bankruptcy.  

Florida needs to be progressive when it comes to mass transit in our state, but to build a project just for the sake of doing so to say we have HSR is shortsighted.

Progressive is putting it out to bid and finding out what actual numbers and answers are to concerns before pulling the plug.  Once you have your answers and they don't resolve your fears, move on.  What's the harm in that?

Btw, what is the estimated O&M and how does it compare with the O&M of maintaining a bridge like the Matthews or an expressway like the Outer Beltway?  Just trying to get a hold on these "risks" that some are so scared of to the point that they don't even want to get actual answers from professionals on the subject.

[Ocklawaha]

Letters: Misinformation clouds high-speed rail issue

The proposed high-speed rail project from Orlando to Tampa would offer a transportation alternative to millions of Florida residents and the 35 million travelers who fly in and out of the Orlando International Airport each year. Much misinformation exists regarding the project.

AGAIN, it offers NOTHING for FLORIDA RESIDENTS, that statement alone is intentionally misleading, and I think the Dockery's know it.

The arguments being made against it are not fact-based.

Your facts didn't withstand closer review by a table full of railroaders at the FRA HSR meeting in Orlando. Rail would be a God-Send for Florida, and the FLORIDA EAST COAST PROJECT as is SUNRAIL are great examples of rail projects that will exceed all expectations. The Orlando-Tampa project, as long as it remains in the I-4 right-of-way, and refuses to serve centrally located urban railroad stations with connections, is doomed to fail.

Argument: Capital cost overruns could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

Fact: The private sector would pay for any cost overruns. This would be a legally binding agreement, with no risk to the taxpayers.

Which is only as good as the paper it's written on. When mega-corporations start losing money, they exit fast, and just based on the stuff I have seen in the documents, they could tie us in legal knots for years.

Argument: Ridership and revenue projections are historically overly optimistic, and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur, which could cost from $300 million to $575 million over 10 years.

Fact: The private sector would assume all ridership revenue risk.

Oh really? WHO? and WHEN? and HOW MUCH? And if they cut and run, then what? Will you go on TV and tell us how those mean industrialists fooled you Paula?

Argument: If the project became too costly for taxpayers and was shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds.

Fact: The private sector would assume all risk for long-term operations and maintenance. The U.S. Department of Transportation would oversee the financial viability of the private contractors and would hold them responsible, not the state.

BIG DEAL, so it gets shut down, boarded up, grows up in weeds, the private contractors have left the continent and UNCLE SAM get's a train set, albeit slightly broken and basically worthless.

These facts are from the Florida Department of Transportation, a nonpolitical entity. If government officials or citizens choose to oppose high-speed rail, that opposition should be based on accurate information.

And if Politicians want to play trains, they should first play their facts against all possible scenarios and quit promising a rose garden when this thing is fought full of unknowns.

The U.S. is far behind the rest of the world in transportation innovation. For Florida, this spells opportunity. We can evaluate the cutting-edge systems of high-speed rail and select the very best for us.

I would agree if we proposed putting it someplace where it might work.

Let's not miss the opportunity to be a part of an innovative transportation solution that would create 23,000 direct jobs, including a permanent facility at Orlando International Airport and a manufacturing and assembly facility along the 81-mile corridor.

Speculation will get you everywhere? We have no idea how many jobs (hard numbers) would be created, any more then we know it will carry more people then the Northeast Corridor (which it won't). A permanent facility at the Orlando International Airport? Isn't that where people are forced to go (as a former resident of Orlando, we all know how much that trip is loved) to catch a plane? Let's not compound that error by making it the place to catch a train too. Lastly? What manufacturing and assembly facility? Who announced it? When? Where?

I know rail will work in Florida, but its going to need to be a hybrid of AMTRAK-SUNRAIL and TRIRAIL, with reasonably fast, conventional or tilting trains, along conventional railroads. Those tracks have been in place over 100 years for a good reason - THEY GO WHERE WE FLORIDIANS LIVE! Invest just a fraction of this amount of money in a splendid intra-state rail system, one that reaches the people, and we might indeed eliminate the need for more lanes on I-4...

But Palula? This isn't it.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

^That hybrid is still the plan. However, some of it may be about to die with HSR (ex. FEC/Amtrak, Sunrail, etc.).  This is another reason not to make an abrupt decision without first evaluating the facts on all of these projects and how they relate to one another before making a final judgement on any one in particular.

[mtraininjax]

Is it the 25th yet?

[PeeJayEss]

I know you say approve it now and let the plan be changed, but seriously, if this thing goes to the airport, etc and not to city centers, its going to aid in killing downtowns (which we're going to need in future).

[thelakelander]

It hits DT Tampa in the heart. It connects with intermodal terminal at Orlando's airport. That terminal will also have Sunrail, a rail line that will take you directly into DT Orlando, if that's your desired destination. Saying that the Tampa/Orlando segment of HSR will kill those city's downtown's is another unproven claim. The high number of unproven claims is further evidence that it would be wise to allow the project to go to bid.

[JeffreyS]

I know you say approve it now and let the plan be changed, but seriously, if this thing goes to the airport, etc and not to city centers, its going to aid in killing downtowns (which we're going to need in future).

Not approve it now rather don't kill it yet.  Let it go to bid that is the only way to know what the final bill will be to decide upon.

I would like to thank the conservative groups, business groups and conservative politicians in our state rallying against the Governor and putting the State's future first ahead of Tea Party politics.

[PeeJayEss]

It hits DT Tampa in the heart. It connects with intermodal terminal at Orlando's airport. That terminal will also have Sunrail, a rail line that will take you directly into DT Orlando, if that's your desired destination. Saying that the Tampa/Orlando segment of HSR will kill those city's downtown's is another unproven claim. The high number of unproven claims is further evidence that it would be wise to allow the project to go to bid.

Please. Its a tourist train to get from NY to Disney without getting in a car. DT Orlando should be the hub. You can hop on Sunrail to get to the airport, not the other way around. And talk about unproven claims? Sunrail does not exist. You'll take HSR to the airport and not be able to go anywhere but on a flight.

[JeffreyS]

yeah we don't want tourists in florida . and who wants to get to the airport to take a plane?

[PeeJayEss]

yeah we don't want tourists in florida . and who wants to get to the airport to take a plane?

Well, maybe if you want to get to the Orlando airport from Tampa! But if you're in Orlando, this won't help you get to the airport. I didn't say we don't want tourists so don't be ridiculous. All I said was this train (as designed) is serving only tourists, not the people of Orlando. From Orlando, you have to drive to the airport to take a plane or a train to Tampa with this plan.

[thelakelander]

It hits DT Tampa in the heart. It connects with intermodal terminal at Orlando's airport. That terminal will also have Sunrail, a rail line that will take you directly into DT Orlando, if that's your desired destination. Saying that the Tampa/Orlando segment of HSR will kill those city's downtown's is another unproven claim. The high number of unproven claims is further evidence that it would be wise to allow the project to go to bid.

Please. Its a tourist train to get from NY to Disney without getting in a car. DT Orlando should be the hub. You can hop on Sunrail to get to the airport, not the other way around. And talk about unproven claims? Sunrail does not exist. You'll take HSR to the airport and not be able to go anywhere but on a flight.

Neither exists, however Sunrail will exist if HSR happens.  You can't plan in a vacuum.  All of these projects complement each other so you have to account for an entire network instead of railing against a single segment because it doesn't fit your ideology in how things should be if we were kings for a day.  People may not like the mouse but its foolish to not attempt to tie in it and Orlando's airport with any type of mass transit investment.  

Btw, what do you all think about Secaucus Station in New Jersey?  It is a huge passenger rail hub that misses all of New Jersey's urban centers (ex. Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City, etc.).  Its not even at an airport that happens to be the country's 13th largest with 36 million passengers (most who aren't headed to DT Orlando) coming through its facilities on an annual basis.  Its next to a Meadowlands I-95 interchange in the middle of a suburban industrial park.



Is it killing the urban core areas of the NYC metropolitan area?

[thelakelander]

yeah we don't want tourists in florida . and who wants to get to the airport to take a plane?

Well, maybe if you want to get to the Orlando airport from Tampa! But if you're in Orlando, this won't help you get to the airport. I didn't say we don't want tourists so don't be ridiculous. All I said was this train (as designed) is serving only tourists, not the people of Orlando. From Orlando, you have to drive to the airport to take a plane or a train to Tampa with this plan.

Living in Orlando and taking HSR to get to Orlando's airport isn't the purpose of intercity HSR.  If you don't want to drive your car, then a local transit option (Sunrail, local bus) should be your desired option.  On the other hand, if you lived in Orlando and wanted to go to Miami, it would make all the sense in the world to drive to your local HSR station, regardless of where its location is in the metro area.

[PeeJayEss]

Btw, what do you all think about Secaucus Station in New Jersey?  It is a huge passenger rail hub that misses all of New Jersey's urban centers (ex. Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City, etc.).  Its not even at an airport that happens to be the country's 13th largest with 36 million passengers (most who aren't headed to DT Orlando) coming through its facilities on an annual basis.  Its next to a Meadowlands I-95 interchange in the middle of a suburban industrial park.

Is it killing the urban core areas of the NYC metropolitan area?

I'll give you industrial park, but nothing around there fits the description of suburban. I do think its a dumb station location, and it was built not because of design considerations, but because Frank Lautenberg pushed for it. That said, its not a valid comparison. It is a regional rail stop and transfer station, not for inter-city travel. Its not an Amtrak hub - these all connect at Penn Station or Union Station in the heart of Manhattan. So, if you want to use NYC as a comparison, yea, I think locating major intercity rail hubs in the center of downtown is a pretty good idea. You want people to live downtown, then it has to actually be the center of the city (all roads lead to downtown kinda thing)

[CS Foltz]

Well, since the Gov doesn't read any papers, other than maybe the New York Post, I can understand his lack of expertise and knowledge! I still wonder where the 700k jobs are going to come from?

[thelakelander]

Btw, what do you all think about Secaucus Station in New Jersey?  It is a huge passenger rail hub that misses all of New Jersey's urban centers (ex. Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City, etc.).  Its not even at an airport that happens to be the country's 13th largest with 36 million passengers (most who aren't headed to DT Orlando) coming through its facilities on an annual basis.  Its next to a Meadowlands I-95 interchange in the middle of a suburban industrial park.

Is it killing the urban core areas of the NYC metropolitan area?

I'll give you industrial park, but nothing around there fits the description of suburban.

Spread out land uses, poor connectivity, pedestrian hostile environment, autocentric sprawling development pattern.  All of these suburban characteristics are present in that particular location.

I do think its a dumb station location, and it was built not because of design considerations, but because Frank Lautenberg pushed for it. That said, its not a valid comparison. It is a regional rail stop and transfer station, not for inter-city travel. Its not an Amtrak hub - these all connect at Penn Station or Union Station in the heart of Manhattan. So, if you want to use NYC as a comparison, yea, I think locating major intercity rail hubs in the center of downtown is a pretty good idea. You want people to live downtown, then it has to actually be the center of the city (all roads lead to downtown kinda thing)

The apples to apples comparison is that it is a small piece of a much larger interconnected network.  It does just fine for what it was designed to do, which is allow riders to transfer to other trains to access various destinations in the NE.  It doesn't make or break any of that region's urban cores and neither will a rail stop at MCO destroy any of Orlando's.  Besides, if its going to be empty, as claimed, then it should have absolutely no impact on pulling people away from downtown Orlando, Winter Park or any other core area in Central Florida. 

Nevertheless, this entire discussion is based on opinions.  All of this is more reason to allow the thing to be vetted by actual professionals who are considering putting their own cash into the project.  If deemed viable, it will go forward.  If not, it won't.  With this in mind, I still don't see what the fear is in allowing the bidding process to take place.