Gov. Scott's Rail Decisions To Impact Jacksonville

[JeffreyS]

For the newbie ROW is right of way.

[tayana42]

Lakelander, thanks for a superb presentation and detailed explanation.  We could only hope that Rick Scott will actually read it.
If he did and set politics aside, I would expect him to reverse his decision.  Unfortunately, Scott has stated that he doesn't read any Florida newspapers and I assume that includes any Florida blogs. 

My cynicism grows by the day.  Still, let's keep trying to make this world (and city) better.

[FayeforCure]

Great article. I cant believe that Gov. Scott is for real with this. I've sent my e-mails but I feel like this guy could care less about the other 49% who didn't vote for him.

Correction: 75% of Floridians DID NOT vote for Rick Scott.

As only 50% of Floridians bothered to vote and of those only half voted for him ie 25% of Floridans including all the "destroy government" Tea Party vying for descent into uncivilized society.

I have never understood people who hate government that join government simply to destroy government. They are actually the ultimate welfare queens that are bringing down our government while they themselves enjoy government sponsored healthcare.

[tufsu1]

For the newbie ROW is right of way.

oops...sorry...my bad

[FayeforCure]

I agree.  Realistically, with the fallout at state level, this is going to be Jax's only short term solution.  Unfortunately, outside of the skyway, we won't be able to take advantage of the economic development and connectivity fixed transit brings to urban communities and their revitalization efforts.

I agree, but I disagree, too.  The political scene is a pendulum.  Recently it has swung to the right.  And the farther right it goes before it stops, the more momentum there will be to keep it swinging left.

Unfortunately the pendulum has been swinging to the right for the past three decades........it all started with those Reagan Dems voting Republican and has continued ever since under the skillfull guidance of front groups like the Heritage Foundation, Reason, Cato, Freedom Works, Americans for Prosperity etc that are lavishly funded by the Koch Brothers, who are OIL BILLIONAIRES.

Move-On has been just a recent counterforce, I think since 2004, but with Mudoch owning most mainstream media outlets, the left has been screwed for 3 decades.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm still witnessing a LEMMING STAMPEDE! We'll get a free train and YIPPIEEEE!

BULL SHIT!  READ SOME OF THE CRAP IN THE STUDIES... The proponents of this thing have a much larger agenda then Florida or High Speed Rail, pure old fashioned greed? Likely. So even when some of the most level headed people at the Tampa Tribune start writing about it, out roll the fantasy numbers, and unadulterated lies that this project is built on.

Florida's future economic growth and success are integrally tied to the transportation and land-use decisions that we make today. We should be looking for opportunities to expand and enhance long-term options that help make communities sustainable and protect and enhance the natural and built environments of Florida. Florida's high-speed rail would have accomplished this for the state, the Central Florida region and the local communities served by the rail.

It would? By what? Not serving the corridor it is advertised as serving? By not connecting to the Orlando Metro? By having an airport and two amusement park stations in the Orlando end of the line, but NONE in the central urbanized area? That this goofy plan will create a "sustainable community" and enhance the "natural and built environments" when it doesn't connect so much as a MICKEY D'S to anyplace anyone would, or could afford to live.

You have to love the line "Florida's High Speed Rail would have accomplished this for the state, the Central Florida Region and the local communities." It would build forested park land, create widget factories out of swamps, and save swamps for widget factory workers children's children. It will cause apple pie, and red, white, and blue bunting to decorate community bandstands, and American's everywhere will shed a tear of pride when they think of FLORIDA and it's HIGH SPEED TRAIN. ...And the BS just keeps getting worse and worse, sooner or later these fools are going to convince themselves or someone else to build the damn thing and THAT'S when the real fun will began. Dateline ABC NEWS - 2019, "What if they built a railroad and nobody came to ride?" Yeah, that ought to help our bottom line here in Jacksonville.

Using the generally accepted cost estimate of $10 million/lane mile, the $285 million funding gap of concern to Scott roughly equates to less than 30 lane miles of roadway construction. It should also be noted that as I-4 was widened over the last decade, additional right-of-way was acquired to allow rail to run in the wide median.

So rail is cheaper to build then highways, and has a higher capacity, which proves that if a railroad ran from an airport to a theme park to a bus transfer... In other words, if the project were planned to really do the things they keep saying it will magically do, it would have a real shot at success, but ignoring Floridians in a system that is supposed to lift Florida to the next level is irresponsible in the 10th degree.

In the overall context of Florida's future, the potential of the high-speed rail project to positively impact the economic linkages within the Tampa-Orlando mega-region, act as a catalyst for altering the fabric of community development by diversifying transportation options and provide a "green" alternative to the ever-growing I-4 corridor congestion, seems, in my view, to be more valuable in comparison. Anyone familiar with I-4 will agree that traffic congestion and commute time will continue to increase each year. The addition of more traffic lanes is not the solution Florida needs.

How is it going to "positively impact" anything when it doesn't provide transportation for the community? A green alternative? Do the math, a train an hour each way, plus every 30 minutes between OIA and MICKEY, and if 160 passengers a day ride?

Anyone familiar with I-4 WOULD AGREE that traffic congestion and commute times will continue to increase and that more traffic lanes are not the  solution. What does this have to do with Florida High Speed Rail? We've already seen that it will not TOUCH the I-4 commute, or even the Orlando Metropolitan Area, so holding this up as an example of the way to go is criminally misleading.

The 2060 Florida Transportation Plan, completed by the Florida Department of Transportation in December, clearly recognizes Florida cannot continue to rely on the roadway network to meet our future mobility needs. There are few choices for moving people or freight between many of Florida's regions today and, if current trends continue, most urban and interregional highway corridors will likely be heavily congested during peak periods by 2035, even after planned investments are made. This scenario is one that will not likely attract new businesses and industry which bring needed jobs to the state.

Here we go again with more spin. We can't rely on our roadway network, so build the train, build the train, build the train...even though the train will NOT serve to relieve the roadway network. To meet the needs of moving people AND FREIGHT? Actually giving this line to CSX to move Intermodal trailers to Port Tampa might be the best use for it, because otherwise, IT WILL NEVER CARRY FREIGHT. New business and jobs will indeed stay away from congested urban corridors so we need to come up with a REALISTIC RAIL SOLUTION because this ain't it. Meanwhile, just keep talking about how much relief it will provide, how many jobs it will create, what a glowing picture of Florida it will project...ignore all of the fantasy and spin. Check back in 30 years and see what a reputation a weed grown piece of track running past boarded up stations in the middle of nowhere has done for us.

A statewide passenger-rail system and enhanced transit systems in Florida's major urban areas are a significant part of the solution.

...Fantasy again, THIS IS NOT A STATE WIDE ANYTHING and even it's proponents admit that the Miami leg is speculative. A true Statewide Passenger Rail Network such as AMTRAK CALIFORNIA, or THE CASCADE CORRIDOR would do a thousand times more for us then this boondoggle.

Commuter Rail in Jacksonville? That will be much more tied to our port then to anything CSX can hock in Orlando, that "A" line is NOWHERE NEAR CAPACITY and would hardly notice a commuter rail start. JAXPORT with Federal Assistance, and the former Federal Ports Director, and CSX, a multi-billion dollar railroad will survive and grow just fine, with or without Mickeys Flying Train.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

I want HSR, but I want it right.

Sending the $2.4 billion away gets you no where closer to your wish.  There's no alternative on the table and there won't be for years when this goes down the drain.  After all, we've been debating this exact project for the last +20 years or so. 

If you want it right, then you want it put out to bid by the private sector, in a manner that allows them to make modifications that makes it feasible to the point of where they'd risk their own funds on it.  If you're willing to wait until your grandkids have kids, then pass without an alternative plan or funding is the way to go.

+1

Sums it up quite nicely!!
Really what does the state of Florida have to loose? There are only positives from a major infrastructure investment that won't cost the state anything, and Floridians gain at least 50,000 jobs.

Even the operating expenses for the next 20 years will be borne by the private entity that will be bidding on the project!!!

[thelakelander]

Really what does the state of Florida have to loose?

Evidently, a fear that a private company would actually be willing to put their money in and make a go of it.

[Ocklawaha]

Even the operating expenses for the next 20 years will be borne by the private entity that will be bidding on the project!!!

They say they are going to ask, or "require" bidders to cover 100% of the operating expenses, but unless someone has some inside information, nobody has laid a contract on the table that says, "We might be stupid, but shazam, we'll cover your costs..." Worse still, even if someone does do that, there is not a chance in hell if this thing doesn't meet the unbelievable and fantastic lofty goals that it's supporters have lavished on us, any one of these companies will simply bail, or go bankrupt. It's an old railroad trick, today's CSX RAILROAD can easily be tomorrows CSX RAILWAY...debit free. When that happens, guess who gets the abandoned stations, and a railroad to nowhere? Rick has it right (as much as I hate like hell to admit that...)

Oh and one of those rascals filling the governors head with all of this "reality check" data on the current edition of Florida High Speed Rail? Guess who?

Really what does the state of Florida have to loose?

Evidently, a fear that a private company would actually be willing to put their money in and make a go of it.

It's not what Florida has to lose that concerns me, its the damage that this failure will have on future High Speed Rail Projects and Amtrak alike. Private enterprise will simply say we got hoodwinked by Florida's slippery politicians, file suit and/or bankruptcy and be gone.

But a dead railroad will be a scar on the land, the state and the industry for decades to come. Most of us agree that it's a really bad plan for a railroad that is going to have any effect, Scott has dumped that plan, which could be the biggest blessing passenger rail has ever gotten from a Republican.

STAND FIRM, do it right or don't do it at all... and Doc and his HSR buddies, quit pissing on our legs and telling us it's raining.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

An editorial from Doc's wife, Sen. Paula Dockery:

Letters: Misinformation clouds high-speed rail issue

The proposed high-speed rail project from Orlando to Tampa would offer a transportation alternative to millions of Florida residents and the 35 million travelers who fly in and out of the Orlando International Airport each year. Much misinformation exists regarding the project. The arguments being made against it are not fact-based.

Argument: Capital cost overruns could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

Fact: The private sector would pay for any cost overruns. This would be a legally binding agreement, with no risk to the taxpayers.

Argument: Ridership and revenue projections are historically overly optimistic, and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur, which could cost from $300 million to $575 million over 10 years.

Fact: The private sector would assume all ridership revenue risk.

Argument: If the project became too costly for taxpayers and was shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds.

Fact: The private sector would assume all risk for long-term operations and maintenance. The U.S. Department of Transportation would oversee the financial viability of the private contractors and would hold them responsible, not the state.

These facts are from the Florida Department of Transportation, a nonpolitical entity. If government officials or citizens choose to oppose high-speed rail, that opposition should be based on accurate information.

The U.S. is far behind the rest of the world in transportation innovation. For Florida, this spells opportunity. We can evaluate the cutting-edge systems of high-speed rail and select the very best for us. Let's not miss the opportunity to be a part of an innovative transportation solution that would create 23,000 direct jobs, including a permanent facility at Orlando International Airport and a manufacturing and assembly facility along the 81-mile corridor. On behalf of Florida's 18 million residents, we must make fact-based decisions.

SEN. PAULA DOCKERY

Lakeland

Editor's note: Paula Dockery represents Florida's 15th Senate District.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-misinformation-clouds-high-speed-rail-issue-1276636.html?cxtype=rss_letters

[thelakelander]

But a dead railroad will be a scar on the land, the state and the industry for decades to come. Most of us agree that it's a really bad plan for a railroad that is going to have any effect, Scott has dumped that plan, which could be the biggest blessing passenger rail has ever gotten from a Republican.

STAND FIRM, do it right or don't do it at all...

This is where we disagree.  I believe it's salvageable enough to allow the bidding process to take place to get some real answers (that could validate either side of the argument) before pulling the plug on $2.4 billion in federal funding.  You do yourself a huge disservice guesstimating and making final decisions without solid facts with that much money on the line.

[thelakelander]

With one day left before the deadline, here is the latest:

Gov. Rick Scott's office, federal officials talking high-speed rail; Scott unmoved

TALLAHASSEE â€" Federal transportation officials have spent the past two days talking with Gov. Rick Scott's office in hopes of salvaging a high-speed rail project linking Tampa and Orlando.

But Scott remains convinced that no deal can be structured to remove all financial risk to the state.

"Nothing in the discussions so far alleviates the governor's concerns that Florida's state taxpayers would still be on the hook," spokesman Brian Hughes said.

U.S. Department of Transportation officials began discussions with the staff in Scott's office on Tuesday and they continued Wednesday.

Also involved is Tampa City Attorney Chip Fletcher and possibly other local officials.

"Right now we have gone as far as we can," said Lakeland Mayor Gow Fields, declining to go into details about the state of talks because the parties have agreed not to reveal them at this time. "We have to await an answer until we know what's next."

Fields said the basic template of governments along the rail line teaming up to accept federal money for high-speed rail hasn't changed.

Scott and other critics think there is no way to alleviate the risk to the state. The state Transportation Department would have to provide technical assistance and grant the right of away along the project route.

Some think Scott acted prematurely, and another Republican questioned Wednesday why the governor did not wait to see bids from private companies.

Meanwhile, state transportation officials are still waiting on the results of a ridership study on the proposed line, due in early March. Scott has doubted that enough people would use the rail system to justify its cost.

full article: http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article1153377.ece

[Ocklawaha]

An editorial from Doc's wife, Sen. Paula Dockery:

Letters: Misinformation clouds high-speed rail issue

The proposed high-speed rail project from Orlando to Tampa would offer a transportation alternative to millions of Florida residents and the 35 million travelers who fly in and out of the Orlando International Airport each year. Much misinformation exists regarding the project. The arguments being made against it are not fact-based.

Argument: Capital cost overruns could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

Fact: The private sector would pay for any cost overruns. This would be a legally binding agreement, with no risk to the taxpayers.

Argument: Ridership and revenue projections are historically overly optimistic, and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur, which could cost from $300 million to $575 million over 10 years.

Fact: The private sector would assume all ridership revenue risk.

Argument: If the project became too costly for taxpayers and was shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds.

Fact: The private sector would assume all risk for long-term operations and maintenance. The U.S. Department of Transportation would oversee the financial viability of the private contractors and would hold them responsible, not the state.

These facts are from the Florida Department of Transportation, a nonpolitical entity. If government officials or citizens choose to oppose high-speed rail, that opposition should be based on accurate information.

The U.S. is far behind the rest of the world in transportation innovation. For Florida, this spells opportunity. We can evaluate the cutting-edge systems of high-speed rail and select the very best for us. Let's not miss the opportunity to be a part of an innovative transportation solution that would create 23,000 direct jobs, including a permanent facility at Orlando International Airport and a manufacturing and assembly facility along the 81-mile corridor. On behalf of Florida's 18 million residents, we must make fact-based decisions.

SEN. PAULA DOCKERY

Lakeland

Editor's note: Paula Dockery represents Florida's 15th Senate District.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-misinformation-clouds-high-speed-rail-issue-1276636.html?cxtype=rss_letters

He's an insurance salesman, and she is a politician, and I should believe her why? When the CEO of TALGO or BOMBARDIER or ABB or SNCF or ? steps up to the mike and says "WE WILL PAY FOR THIS THING." Then we have a promise, and after they say it, we have no assurances.

As is it is just too risky for the industry as a whole, to hell with Florida, it's the RAIL PASSENGER INDUSTRY that will take the dive if this thing goes down. It will be even worse if we have 10 or 12 lawsuits flying around the state, abandoned track, boarded stations, no riders, and a huge amount of cash flushed down the toilet.

It's extremely simple from my (old railroad guy) point of view. You don't go to a cornfield to get coal, you don't go to a pizza hut to get surgery, and you don't go down a freeway or to airports create a railroad system. Pass by the freeway or airport and I'll agree with the concept, make it the core of the system, and I won't.

By all appearances any private company is still going to have to go with the "State approved route," and if that is the case, this thing is hopelessly doomed.

OCKLAWAHA

[Gators312]

The private sector would pay for any cost overruns. This would be a legally binding agreement, with no risk to the taxpayers.

This statement to me is the scariest.  This is something that can not be guaranteed.  Do the politicians think we are that stupid?  It's like the statement about jobs "saved."  It's really not quantifiable, but sounds great when making an argument for the position.

As mentioned above, what stops these private companies from declaring bankruptcy to absolve their liability? 

It's really no different than the Home Builders throughout Florida who filed bankruptcy to run from litigation regarding unfinished developments, chinese drywall, etc.  Make lots and lots of money and then when it runs out, bail out with a bankruptcy. 

Florida needs to be progressive when it comes to mass transit in our state, but to build a project just for the sake of doing so to say we have HSR is shortsighted.

[thelakelander]

It's extremely simple from my (old railroad guy) point of view. You don't go to a cornfield to get coal, you don't go to a pizza hut to get surgery, and you don't go down a freeway or to airports create a railroad system. Pass by the freeway or airport and I'll agree with the concept, make it the core of the system, and I won't.

For a rail "system", I'd agree but this is a small segment of a much larger integrated plan.  Speaking of which, Chicago's El is a local system that utilizes significant portions of freeway medians yet still attracts high ridership due to the integration of transportation and land use.  The New Mexico Railrunner also has a significant stretch running in a freeway median between that State's two major cities.  

Knowing my home area's traffic patterns, I believe the thing's feasibility would dramatically improve by using the infrastructure for a duel purpose (express & local) and fully integrating it with future surrounding land uses. Nevertheless, the major thing is I have no problem putting the thing out to bid and letting a Talgo or Amtrak say its not feasible, causing it to die on facts instead of opinionated fears and worst case scenario nightmares.  This option, which actually works with the federal government's wishes, would also put us in better position to land federal dollars (in the short term) for other projects we deem important (ex. Amtrak/FEC, commuter rail, etc.).