Rick Mullaney Unveils Plan for Jacksonville

[Ocklawaha]

If we just stop service on the Skyway, won't we wind up with a big, pointless eyesore in the middle of downtown?  And won't it be used, as abandoned properties are used, as a homeless shelter/drug den/house of prostitution/general center for crime and vice?

Of course not, some people on here think we can take that 8' wide guideway, remove the beam and turn it into a jogging trail...

"By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Warvan, Oh What A Bargin...RAH!


OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

It might be the best we could get from FDOT, but the city would have benefited more if the road went lower and the Skyway went OVER it. Every executive vacationer and his/her family that speeds past on the interstate and saw "a futuristic monorail" pass over the freeway would be sold on JACKSONVILLE as a place to live and do business forever.

Speaking of vacationers - on my way to and from downtown this afternoon, the trains were packed with people here for the pastor's convention.  The Skyway will be running all weekend to support the event.  It was fun talking to people as we crossed the Acosta.  They all loved the view and couldn't say enough about how much they like Jacksonville.  I was tempted to tell them to savor the moment because there are some who want to dismantle this system.  I held my tongue - didn't want to spoil the mood.

[Wacca Pilatka]

However limited the Skyway is given the route system, tourists do like using it and enjoy the views.  When I have guests with me on visits to Jacksonville, I always take them on the Skyway.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

However limited the Skyway is given the route system, tourists do like using it and enjoy the views.  When I have guests with me on visits to Jacksonville, I always take them on the Skyway.

but to you it's a novelty.  The skyway needs to be reality for a lot of different peopel for it to be viable.  I use it fairly regularly, but I would use it more if it went where I needed it to. 

We need to take the novelty out of it and make it a viable form of transportation for it to succeed.

[stjr]

However limited the Skyway is given the route system, tourists do like using it and enjoy the views.  When I have guests with me on visits to Jacksonville, I always take them on the Skyway.

So, is it supposed to be a mass transit system or a theme park ride?  LOL.

As a theme park ride, we could pretend to be riding through the "House of Horrors" as we bump along in cramped Skyway cars past weeded lots, asphalt parking lots, blah parking garages, a woeful convention center, Crue-LaVilla DeVille, and our $350+ million courthouse calamity of columns.  The final test will be making it out of the Skyway station, dodging broken gates, turnstiles, and escalators.  "Survivors" will then be finished off with the "horror" of reading about the Skyway's actual performance versus that promised (as it is now!) by the experts and promoters when it was built.  I suspect Ock may be the only one "hardened" enough to make it out in one piece.  

Maybe as a joy ride, we could charge the many dollars a ride it actually costs to run it.  Then, as a break even operation, we could move on to address our mass transit needs with the real thing, not some fantasy toy. 

Awaiting emotional backlash by humorless proponents.

[tufsu1]

well lots of places have built transit systems that cater to visitors...Tampa streetcar, Memphis streetcar, Little Rock streetcar, Las Vegas monrail.

But please don't tell folks like Chris that visitors like Jax.

[Ocklawaha]

However limited the Skyway is given the route system, tourists do like using it and enjoy the views.  When I have guests with me on visits to Jacksonville, I always take them on the Skyway.

As a theme park ride, we could pretend to be riding through the "House of Horrors" as we bump along in cramped Skyway cars past weeded lots, asphalt parking lots, blah parking garages, a woeful convention center, Crue-LaVilla DeVille, and our $350+ million courthouse calamity of columns.  The final test will be making it out of the Skyway station, dodging broken gates, turnstiles, and escalators.  "Survivors" will then be finished off with the "horror" of reading about the Skyway's actual performance versus that promised (as it is now!) by the experts and promoters when it was built.  I suspect Ock may be the only one "hardened" enough to make it out in one piece.  

Awaiting emotional backlash by humorless proponents.

TUFSU is correct, in fact a lot more then he listed and many of those have slowly became TRUE transit routes or urban revival tools, witness EL RENO, OK, or FT SMITH, AR, or YAKIMA, WA, or FT COLLINS, CO, all of which started as a just for fun and are now very serious business.

NEVER THE LESS...

Here you go stjr. I challenge anyone to look at the highlighted portion of your quote and tell me how this is the SKYWAY'S fault? Poor choices=JTA, Bad planner=JTA, Believing their own hype=JTA, Poor city planning=COJ, Garages that steal transit customers=COJ, Broken EVERYTHING=JTA, Performance=JTA-COJ, Courthouse "Explosion in a pillar factory"=JOHNNY BOY PEYTON, and WTF, let's toss in ELEVATORS SMELL LIKE PISS=JTA!

Just leave it the hell alone and let the new mayor give Ennis and Myself 6 months and a few thousand to work with and watch us more then DOUBLE the ridership... making it the busiest transit route in the city. If we pull that off, you join our team.

See you at Hogans Creek SATURDAY MORNING.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

^^ Ock lighten up.  I didn't say all that was the Skyway's fault but since you bring it up, one of the deliverables per original Skyway proponents was the success of downtown development.  So, by all rights, all that blight and other development horrors should be nonexistent after 20 plus years of downtown's promised savior, the ASE.  I don't think you put all of this particular failure on JTA.  Rather, I think most of it has to do with the failure of the Skyway as a transit mode.  That's my opinion just like you have yours.

[jcjohnpaint]

but how could something be judged that was never finished?

[stjr]

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on Yesterday at 10:19:39 PM
but how could something be judged that was never finished?

jc, read the many posts I have added to MJ threads on this subject, including this thread.  TWO phases have been FINISHED and there were "EXPERT" projections and expectations associated with these finished sections.  The Skyway has fallen, after 20 plus years, 90+% short of THOSE expert numbers.  Not building any remaining expansions has no impact on the original projections.

Also, you should know that the rationale offered for building Phase II is essentially the same as that being offered for the current round of requested expansions.  Yet, Phase II did nothing to improve the Skyway's performance.  I say "doubling down" again is a losing bet.

For the money, we should bet on street cars, buses, etc., not a repeat of history.  No expansion is going to take the Skyway to the midst of an actual residential neighborhood or intensely developed area.  And, the Skyway has proven it's not a catalyst for such improvements.  So, with another expansion, I just see more of the same (not a preferable mode of transit vs. other options combined with no improvement upon those trips to nowhere as currently proclaimed by proponents as the main failing feature adding up to no substantial and sustainable demand), except the waste of money will just be a magnitude greater.

[jcjohnpaint]

yeah I have read all your threads and I would like to see streetcars.  I will admit the skyway is a bit uninviting, but I am afraid if it gets scraped we will never see light rail here again.  Thanks for those pics 

[dougskiles]

I didn't say all that was the Skyway's fault but since you bring it up, one of the deliverables per original Skyway proponents was the success of downtown development.  So, by all rights, all that blight and other development horrors should be nonexistent after 20 plus years of downtown's promised savior, the ASE.  I don't think you put all of this particular failure on JTA.  Rather, I think most of it has to do with the failure of the Skyway as a transit mode.  That's my opinion just like you have yours.

I'm not sure it would have mattered what the system was, when the city started tearing down buildings for surface parking lots and parking garages, they doomed any of them to failure.  My understanding is that at the very beginning, the agreement between JTA and the city was that this would not happen.  Then very quickly, the wrecking ball started swinging.

[stjr]

Ock, something unusual happened in your last post (aside from you agreeing with me on several basic aspects of the Skyway   ).  My original post was transformed into your post under my name?!?.  Can you reconstitute my original post and re-post yours separately so it makes sense to the casual reader?  Thanks.

Ock, I see you have now fixed and your post follows below.  Thanks for clearing up.

[Ocklawaha]

MONORAIL OVER RAILROAD - AN INVESTMENT SAN MARCO-SAN JOSE COULD USE.

but how could something be judged that was never finished?

jc, read the many posts I have added to MJ threads on this subject, including this thread.  TWO phases have been FINISHED and there were "EXPERT" projections and expectations associated with these finished sections.  The Skyway has fallen, after 20 plus years, 90+% short of THOSE expert numbers.  Not building any remaining expansions has no impact on the original projections.

This is true, the "geniuses of JTA" decided in 1982 that the Skyway was "cutting edge space age technology,"
and streetcars we're labeled "old and slow and they MUST go in streets and compete with automobile traffic," this according to their own report. However a streetcar system with the exact same route would only see more traffic then the Skyway due to nostalgic tourism. Nothing that runs between the Rosa Parks and Kings Avenue via the Acosta is going to carry much more, regardless of investment.

Also, you should know that the rationale offered for building Phase II is essentially the same as that being offered for the current round of requested expansions.  Yet, Phase II did nothing to improve the Skyway's performance.  I say "doubling down" again is a losing bet.

Same rationale true enough, but the same bone-heads doing the planning. Kings Avenue is no closer to a "Contributor station" then Jefferson Street is. In short the Skyway has NEVER reached any residential or retail pocket that has a natural organic and walkable demand. I'm sure JTA would argue that the Kings Avenue Garage would/should provide that contribution factor for loads, but it too fails completely as they built an inaccessible garage. In fact the planning on the Garage was so poor with regards to the Skyway, that one must drive about 1/2 way into the Skyway's route, turn back at Riverplace or San Marco Station, then park and ride BACK to Riverplace or San Marco Station. It is idiotic to expect more of the system, no matter JTA's propaganda said, when it fails to connect a single contributing station to collector stations.
 

For the money, we should bet on street cars, buses, etc., not a repeat of history.  No expansion is going to take the Skyway to the midst of an actual residential neighborhood or intensely developed area.  And, the Skyway has proven it's not a catalyst for such improvements.  So, with another expansion, I just see more of the same (not a preferable mode of transit vs. other options combined with no improvement upon those trips to nowhere as currently proclaimed by proponents as the main failing feature adding up to no substantial and sustainable demand), except the waste of money will just be a magnitude greater.

I agree with stjr on this point too, as far as I'm concerned the Skyway is a downtown connector only. This is exactly why we need to push it to at least 3 dense residential districts.

This is also why extending it into San Marco is doubly important. The Skyway is the only reasonable mass transit mode that can reach the neighborhood without delays caused by the FEC RY which cuts off that section from the rest of the city. For less then a mile, about 1/6 of the cost of a roadway-streetcar overpass, the Skyway can reach Atlantic Avenue.

One more benefit we could reap from a San Marco-Atlantic Station is the cross-platform connection possibility presented by Commuter Rail on the Florida East Coast. Rail passengers to or from the Southside or CBD could easily change at Atlantic rather then ride into the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL and change to BRT, Skyway or Streetcar there.

[stjr]

I agree with stjr on this point too, as far as I'm concerned the Skyway is a downtown connector only. This is exactly why we need to push it to at least 3 dense residential districts.

This is also why extending it into San Marco is doubly important. The Skyway is the only reasonable mass transit mode that can reach the neighborhood without delays caused by the FEC RY which cuts off that section from the rest of the city. For less then a mile, about 1/6 of the cost of a roadway-streetcar overpass, the Skyway can reach Atlantic Avenue.

Ock, we agree on the need for mass transit to service "dense residential districts".  But, where we differ is I don't see a single proposed Skyway expansion here actually doing this.  Terminating the Skyway at I-95 in Riverside, intersecting Atlantic Blvd. at the FEC RR, running to the Arena/Stadium, and/or stretching toward Shands hardly constitute penetrating service into residential neighborhoods. 

And, I don't think any dense residential district, particularly the various historic style districts (San Marco, Riverside/Avondale, and Springield) the Skyway would encounter should this ever be attempted, would actually want this concrete elephantine monstrosity thumping down on their neighborhoods.  On the other hand, streetcars would not only be welcome but would be far more effective at providing a flexible and user-friendly service in a residential setting.

All of this returns us to some fatal flaws I feel the Skyway mode of transit and any proposed expansions have.  Even expanded, it's just more of the same problems it has now.  And, if expansion can't fix it, as I believe, AND it's a failure as it is now, let's give up and move on to something that can really make a difference!