Rick Mullaney Unveils Plan for Jacksonville

[fieldafm]

No one wants to have to jump between a bunch of different systems to get where they wanna go.

That’s what you do when you rely on mass transit.  You transfer, sometimes two/three/four times.  If we built commuter rail today(I could potentially walk from my front door to a platform onto a train if a commuter rail system existed along US-17) I would still have to transfer on a bus to get to my office. 

Enjoy your visit.  I walked it last summer.  We discussed it previously on MJ.  It seems to me the entire project will run closer to $150 million when completed.  Unlike Jax, NYC has public/private partnerships for projects like this as well as many of their parks.  I have advocated elsewhere for our City to embrace more of this here.
Field, when you visit the Highline, you will find that the appeal is in the journey, not the destination.  If the Skyway were so converted, it would be the same.  Maybe you could relate it locally to the rails-to-trails to Baldwin.

Thanks man!  I don’t like snow if I can’t ski on it, so this will be a very cold trip.  I plan on spending a lot of time also checking out the Nike runner park and the Brooklyn Pier Park.  Believe me, you will be seeing a ton of pictures posted up afterward

I absolutely agree that more public/private partnerships should be explored within our park system.  It is not without precedent in Jacksonville and the Parks Dept had at one point began exploring a corporate sponsorship plan for individual parks across the city.  Go walk on the Northbank Riverwalk.  Fidelity and Swisher Cigars contributed in that endeavor.  Bay Street Pier Park is very attractive for such a sponsorship opportunity. 
However, what you are proposing costs money.  So you want to spend a lot of money to rip up the rail along the skyway, install a park along the elevated railways, and then build another expensive fixed mass transit system right below it.  Sounds like a lot of money.

You brought up a great point about the Baldwin trail.  I rode it a few weekends ago and the group I rode with(all strangers to me) all talked(correctly I might add) about the need to connect this route as part of a broader bike path/trail throughout the city.  Currently it goes nowhere to nowhere.  Sounds a lot like the conundrum JTA finds itself in now doesn’t it?  It’s all about connectivity whether you’re talking about a sidewalk, bicycle, bus or train.

Even Ock, I think you will find, has agreed that street cars could navigate one or more of the bridges.  Based on the Skyway's traffic, it doesn't look like there is that much demand for this route anyway.


You neglect to count the revenue miles of the route and that the rides still cost more than any other mode of public transit we have, on par with private transit such as a taxi or limo.  What a deal for the taxpayers.

Using your mirror analogy, street cars could mirror the Skyway in this regard and, in my opinion, do it far better.  That's part of my point.  The Skyway is a second rate solution.

Well streetcars are more expensive than busses… so your idea is to rip up one transit mode more expensive than busses and replace it with another mode of transit more expensive than busses.  That costs a lot of money.  A better option would be to use what we have and tie it in to a multimodal system that includes streetcars in areas presently not served by the Skyway.  That’s what functional transit systems do.  Using what you have is far less expensive to the taxpayer than ripping it up and starting from scratch.

I am always willing to support more parks in Jax.  But I think it would be prudent to use any Skyway savings toward other rail mass transit

.

But what you’re proposing is to spend quite a bit of money on an elevated park that takes no one to nowhere.  Keep the skyway and give me that same money you want to spend on an elevated park(don’t know where that money’s coming from… I’d sure like to know so Bay Street Pier Park and/or the Hogan Greenbelt could become a reality) and I’ll use it to connect three urban neighborhoods to the river and downtown that would represent a huge step in the revitalization of four areas.

And once you rip everything up you propose to do(which is far from free) and replace those routes with another expensive fixed mass transit option(also not free)... how long do you think it will take to recoup those costs?  Certainly not in my lifetime, and I'm younger than you.

[Jimmy]

The ASE may only be 2.5 miles but how this issue is handled will have a much greater impact on the future development of Jax's overall mass transit system.

In that case, I can understand the heat and the fire.  It's hard to criticize a piece of our transportation infrastructure that's been crippled from the outset.  At this point, even as a demonstration project, the ASE appears to have been designed to fail.  But it doesn't have to be that way.

[dougskiles]

Tufsu, that's not the same as saying the hotel was built due mainly for the reason that the Skyway was "nearby".  Who cares who the land seller was or how they acquired the land.  The question is, did they build the hotel there because of the Skyway?  Still waiting to see evidence of that.  I actually suspect that the little used JTA parking garage (fiasco?) was a far bigger part of this equation.

I just sent an email to the developer of the hotel (my client).  Here is his response:

Doug:
The decision to locate the hotel at the site was a combination of the existing parking garage and the access to the Skyway.  However, the access to the Skyway really should be closer to the hotel for best results.

I will be meeting with him in the near future to talk about it in more detail.  I'll keep you posted.

[peestandingup]

The ASE may only be 2.5 miles but how this issue is handled will have a much greater impact on the future development of Jax's overall mass transit system.

In that case, I can understand the heat and the fire.  It's hard to criticize a piece of our transportation infrastructure that's been crippled from the outset.  At this point, even as a demonstration project, the ASE appears to have been designed to fail.  But it doesn't have to be that way.

I don't really have a dog in this fight (we're probably moving outta Jax this summer), but if I were betting, I think it's gonna become clear as time goes on that the Skyway was setup to do just that. Fail. They basically built the smallest, most expensive and overly complicated/overdone system that they possibly could (not with their own money mind you, basically for free) & sent it from nowhere to nowhere.

Bottom line: I wouldn't hold my breathe on them ever extending this thing. Why, that might actually make it useful!

[thelakelander]

There will have to be a massive change in the leadership level for a skyway extension to happen anytime soon. It's the red headed stepchild of JTA and is treated as such. Right now, BRT is the kid that was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

[Ocklawaha]

Maybe if JTA didn't have a history of being run by, scoundrels and camouflage artists- bastard scum of the earth and spawn of the devil who would not scruple to take unfair opportunities with their neighbors, glib and slippery creatures together with a homogeneous smear of other cons,... scum suckers, and human debris in every stage of shipwrecked penury, maybe we could trust them to do the right thing.

OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

There will have to be a massive change in the leadership level for a skyway extension to happen anytime soon. It's the red headed stepchild of JTA and is treated as such. Right now, BRT is the kid that was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

Not saying it will happen for sure - but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either.

[Captain Zissou]

There will have to be a massive change in the leadership level for a skyway extension to happen anytime soon. It's the red headed stepchild of JTA and is treated as such. Right now, BRT is the kid that was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

Not saying it will happen for sure - but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either.

Doug, you allude to a lot of vague, but very interesting things.  I wish I was on the inside track to know of all these potentially great things going on.

[Rick Mullaney]

Metrojacksonville readers:

Sorry I was not able to join you yesterday. The schedule is really busy, as you might suspect. And I have to leave in just a few minutes for an evening event. I look forward to discussing this plan, and much more, with you in the near future. Thanks for your patience. Rick.

[Ocklawaha]

Rick, your Skyway position bothers me. The Skyway (and remember I was it's original opponent) has never followed the original route plan, never been finished, never operated as promised, and can be expanded for about the same cost as modern Light Rail, but you want to shut it down? Why? Lets talk about getting into responsible hands, developing kiosks and vendors at every station, connecting stations to nearby buildings, running the darn thing 19-20 hours each day, with on call service after a certain time, cutting the parallel bus routes, eliminating BRT under the Skyway, terminating other bus routes at the Skyway stations... and that just for starters. With the mobility plan in place, we should push that San Marco line south to the hotels and on to Landon Street (library/park) and Atlantic where we'd establish a cross platform connection to commuter rail and bus services... and it won't cost the taxpayers a dime.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

There's no telling how much money we could save if we eliminated duplicate services on our bus routes.  Eliminate all bus routes within the CBD (funnel them into the skyway's end points...make sure the turnstiles are working) and let the skyway and the PCTs serve that market.  You'll cut O&M costs, increase skyway ridership and fares at the same time.  Also work with the Southbank office complexes.  Most pay for their own transit services instead of relying on JTA. Perhaps some deal could be worked out that saves them money and puts more butts on the public transit services already being provided.

[dougskiles]

Doug, you allude to a lot of vague, but very interesting things.  I wish I was on the inside track to know of all these potentially great things going on.

I apologize for coming across vague - and now re-reading what I wrote, I can see your point.  I also wish I was on the inside at JTA and could better understand why they do the seemingly crazy things they do.  I'm just an average guy like you poking around trying to find out what is going on.  I have been laying a few tracks of my own through San Marco by Design (see previous topics on MJ) and trying to get community support for an extension.  So far the reception has been very favorable.  In fact, I have yet to come face-to-face with the 'skyway haters' that are supposedly all over the city.  Most share the same view that we do - and would love to ride it if actually came closer to where we live and was connected to a few of the places we want to go.

As far as an overhaul goes - remember that we are dealing with a board who have been appointed by the current administration (well - at least half and presumably they had a pretty strong influence in the other half appointed by the governor).  It is pretty clear where the priorities have been.  Overpasses are so much more fun to build than replacing broken turnstiles.  The right mayor could turn that around within a matter of a few years, if not sooner.

[tufsu1]

So far the reception has been very favorable.  In fact, I have yet to come face-to-face with the 'skyway haters' that are supposedly all over the city. 

just talk to a few City Council members

[dougskiles]

just talk to a few City Council members

Any names in particular?  I actually would like to talk to them.  I have a meeting with Art Shad on Monday - but his term is almost over.  I'm hoping that he can give me some insight as to what I'm up against with the City Council.

[stjr]

Doug, just tell the taxpayers your ideas and the costs associated with them versus the "benefits" (hey, after you drag your butt all the way in from the distant burbs, you get to ride a cramped, pokey, wait-a-while Skyway the last few blocks to a stop still blocks from your destination - and when you could walk it faster) and watch the "haters" as you call us (I guess that makes proponents "lovers") come out of the woodwork like ants crawling from a stirred up mound.  Especially in today's environment.  Politicians may not be good at many things, but they often are in office because they have superior "political instincts".  They know an issue land mine when they see one.

Why don't you, Ock, Stephen and Lake write an Op-Ed piece for the Florida Times Union pages espousing your "love" for the Skyway and see what feedback you get (assuming anyone reads past the headline, "Skyway Failure Can Be Fixed By Doubling Down").  

By the way, Doug, if you can have only one, Skyway or street cars, which is it?  Expand the Skyway and I think you can kiss street cars goodbye for one or more generations.  Its been 60, 70, 80 years since we ripped them up - what's a few more decades?