Rick Mullaney Unveils Plan for Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

Sounds like the Poppy Loves Smoke dilemma a couple of years ago on Adams Street.  The bar's original space was pretty small and the economy was in the middle of a free fall.  However, for the bar to succeed, the owner knew he would have to put more money into to it to expand its offerings.  Instead of quitting and cutting his losses, he did just the opposite and now he's in the midst of another expansion, due to the bar's popularity.

[fieldafm]

So instead of working with what you have and integrating our physical assets with complementing uses in order to derive maximum utility

BTW, I learned that in business school...
The companies that always throw away ideas b/c they didnt EXECUTE them properly are the ones that go bankrupt.  Far more products are regurgitated from previously failed attempts, than successful companies that have completely new product ideas.  Its called 'building a better mousetrap'.  Bill Gates didn't invent the computer.

Comparing GM's brand reduction(which were literally all the same cars with different badging) to JTA's redundant bus lines and refusal to better integrate the skyway as part of a fully functional multi-modal system is like comparing Paula Dean with Tony Blair.

[screamingtrees]

Skyway...BIG deal...not going to fix the budget....BUT, didn't employees (sans Mayor and Staff) just get a 2% paycut?  And, their medical contributions just went up 5% as well.  Didn't we outsource ITD dept last year???  Didn't they TRY to outsource the building department but find that the private sector bids were more expensive?  Privatizing is NOT always the cheaper alternative....think Risk Management Dept.  It is clearly not the full answer.  And, cutting city employee salaries again is not either. 

Better....fine tune city govt...OVERHAUL JTA, eliminate some COJ departments, STOP useless pet project spending and REDUCE non-profit handouts!

[Doctor_K]

Rick Mullaney, and all other mayoral candidates - are you listening yet?

[jcjohnpaint]

and what private sector companies would want to invest in our downtown?  Obviously the Southside is more profitable. 

[Doctor_K]

Rick Mullaney, and all other mayoral candidates - are you listening yet?

I believe Rick will be joining us a little later on in the afternoon!

Phenomenal!  Kudos to MetroJacksonville for being so on the ball and providing the avenue in which the candidates can e-mingle with the constituency.

The real measure of the candidates - all of them - will be whether they take anything away from these conversations and use them.

[Ocklawaha]

From a man on the street point of view, THINK about the segments and ask yourself why...

Segment 1 -
Convention Center (Used only on occasion with no surrounding ANYTHING)
TO
Jefferson Street (More of nothing, vacant dirt)
TO
Central Station (ATT, Omni, Wachovia and a good hike to the Landing)

Now we're done with segment one, WTF? Who in their right mind would build or call THAT anything like a completed transit route? Who in their right mind would think there is ANY reason for ANYBODY to ride the stupid thing except for a few who park their cars near the Convention Center, or the occasional "Home and Garden Show?"

Segment 2 -
Central Station (ATT, Omni, Wachovia and a good hike to the Landing)
TO
Hemming Plaza (City Hall, Federal Bldg, Park, Ed Ball Bldg, Library, Museum & various other attractors.
TO
Rosa Parks (FBC, Homeless Shelters, Missions, and a transit plaza)

Here we have a little bit of use, someone could ride a bus to Rosa Parks and IF IT IS RUNNING, catch the Skyway into downtown, but why bother? We'll just schedule the buses to run right on through downtown anyway, and why not, since the Skyway only touches the area west of Main Street?

At this point stop and look at the interaction between the stations, Hemming Plaza to Rosa Parks? Maybe if your looking for a homeless shelter, otherwise it's cheaper and probably faster to walk. IT IS CERTAINLY MORE DEPENDABLE. Otherwise imagine all of those people going from the shelters to the ATT, Omni, Wachovia buildings, freaking amazing planning.

Segment 3 -

More amazing work y'all, let's cross the river and offset the crossing from the original plans to save a buck, but also at the risk of making the system circuitous. Let's aim right in between a major medical center and two insurance HQ's, then cut off one HQ and the hospital by putting the station east of a FREEway.

San Marco - Build an elaborate 3 level station with ZERO connection to any surrounding infrastructure, but close
                  to Prudential, MOSH

Riverplace - (2 HQ buildings, and 3 hotels, plus apartments and condo, and it actually connects to a building).

Kings Avenue - (Small businesses, and a couple of office buildings) Build station in an alley, out of sight from
                  visitors, but a huge garage but stop 1,000 feet short of connecting it to the system. Add a small
                  transit plaza but don't schedule any buses through, or if you do, don't schedule the Skyway to
                  operate. Lease out a huge parcel for a TOD HOTEL but don't provide the "T".

I defy anyone else in the city stjr or otherwise to think up a more ridiculous plan for a "transit system." Try drawing 2.4 miles of lines in downtown with LESS APPEAL, can't be done.

So where are the mess-ups besides not finishing the thing according to plan?

Segment 1 - This should NOT have been built at all and rightfully should have been in the plan for the JRTC and
                  not a micro convention center.  Jefferson Street? REALLY? Why not the Klatu Nebula?

Segment 2 - It's a shame that they missed the main north-south spine, Laura would have been a bit better
                  but this segment isn't all that bad. The north end on the south side of a speedway is rather
                  brain dead, or is mowing down young college students an area sport?

Segment 3 - Please, someone tell me how you curve the hell out of the line and STILL miss the largest
                  employment center in the core? A three level station but no connection to the Prudential? How
                  do we get over the freeway? How about the 7am - 3 pm hospital shift getting off work in a
                  tropical storm all summer long? How do you get to the Skyway if you had a reason to go? 
                  Riverplace, where's the roof? Can I get to the apartments, hotel or HQ without getting wet?
                  Kings Avenue? WTF? WHY? WHAT IS HERE? This one manages to miss everything in proximity.
                  How do you build a transit transfer point without providing transfers?

Now think of all of the reasons why if you somehow ended up in one of these desert islands, why you would need to go to another? Look at the list of above destinations and decide if we put this where it would do the
most good or did we stop short?


How about
                  The other 1/2 of downtown? What about Laura? Main? Ocean? Newnan? Market? Liberty? and
                  Washington Streets? At the time it was built, what about the government center? Today? What
                  about BOA, Barnett, Law Offices, Pubs, Police Station, Jail, Berkman? Hyatt? At least going on to
                  Randolph would ensure a crowd at each venue at a stadium, park or arena, which is better odds
                  then the empty Convention Center.

How about   The north side? Why not cross the highway and pick up those students where they attend school
                  in a safe-sane manner? Let's angle NW behind the school and pick up the Bethel Baptist crowd,
                  Health Department, City Housing, VA Clinic, Shand's Tower, and Shand's itself

How about    The Hilton, and the Kings Avenue Garage? Why not continue south INTO San Marco and actually
                  connect two parts of the town where people live-work-play.
                  Why not end a line at Atlantic and at Baptist Hospital? Hey we might even serve those insurance
                  companies along the way...if we could remember their names.

How about   Going the extra step and putting a station where the Skyway garage is located? Ever think there
                  might be 2 or 3 people at the TU, JTA or the other riverfront places that want to ride and the track
                  is already there! Hell's bells, how about a concrete platform and a dead end track on the ground
                  with a bus shelter next to it?  Forest Street? We already have the right-of-way, we could have the
                  station if we moved the old fire house across the road, but then does ANYBODY work at Fidelity or
                  BCBS? ...And lets not forget the original study had the Skyway turn west on Roselle, hum a station
                  for an all week long arts market? Then head down to Annie Lytle? Riverside Park and an easy walk
                  College put you right in the heart of 5-Points... There must be someone here that travels
                  downtown on occasion.


OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

Wow! A great discussion on my favorite topic and I was busy working all day.  Everything has been pretty much covered already, but let me add a few thoughts:

• The need for a skyway extension in San Marco has been received very well by everyone I have talked to.  In fact, I haven't personally talked to anyone yet who is opposed to it.
• If we do this properly, the cost for extending it could be paid for by the Mobility Plan, the developers who would benefit from TODs at the proposed stations and savings we get by eliminating the BRT that is proposed to duplicate the existing system.  By going to a single track and dropping it to grade level after crossing the railroad tracks, the cost would be significantly reduced.  The benefit back to JTA would be increased ridership.
• I don't understand why we keep viewing it as a stand-alone system.  The Skyway should be part of an entire network and viewed as just one of the routes.  I don't know that it makes sense to extend it any further in the north, east or west directions.  The same could be accomplished by a streetcar system at much lower cost.  However, because of the railroad tracks and the river, the only way to connect the southbank area and San Marco/St Nicholas is by an elevated system - most of which is already in place.

[Dashing Dan]

The skyway isn't going to be extended anytime soon, but why not make better use of the parts that are already there?  Fix the turnstiles, build stuff around the stations, and then start running the bus routes to the nearest skyway stations, instead of all the way downtown.

Having said all that I'm not about to use the skyway myself, because I work well to the east of Hogan Street downtown.

[thelakelander]

Does anyone find it funny that we're even talking about fixing turnstiles and eliminating duplicate bus service as a way to improve our transit sytem?  Shouldn't we expect this type of stuff from those in charge?  When we will start holding people accountable?

[peestandingup]

Does anyone find it funny that we're even talking about fixing turnstiles and eliminating duplicate bus service as a way to improve our transit sytem?  Shouldn't we expect this type of stuff from those in charge?  When we will start holding people accountable?

If this were some other system in some other town, then maybe it would be. Or maybe if our entire country's public transportation infrastructure didn't have a rich history chalked full of shenanigans like this, then perhaps.

Don't think for a minute that they don't know about these things. Somebody somewhere up the chain of command is telling the troops not to bother fixing stuff like this. After all, a dysfunctional turnstile that only works half the time means only half of the riders get counted. And after all, a bus system (and a horribly ran one at that) is a great way to make sure that it's only utilized by the poorest of the poor (read: the people that have no other choice but to use it. And besides, wouldn't be buying a car anyway & get to play in our little game).

[stjr]

Ock, your analysis of the existing Skyway, I believe, highlights one of my points about expanding it.  To "fix" the terribly flawed existing system would require so much additional investment that it would be much more cost effective to wipe the slate clean and start anew with a system plying the types of common sense routes you suggest.  And, if expansion was implemented, when said and done, much of the Skyway's flaws still won't be fixed.  You realistically aren't going to move the tracks, replace the cars, or rebuild the stations.

Expanding the Skyway will just continue to expand those "lines" that don't fall where they need to.  And, the extensions will merely serve more of the same types of areas currently served.  A stadium district full of its own empty lots and devoid of any weekday activity and only occasionally used otherwise.  A trip to Brooklyn that looks to be still another version of LaVilla's empty lots.  A self contained college campus designed to be apart from the surrounding area and essentially self sufficient for the commuter students arriving from far beyond the reaches of even an expanded Skyway.  A line that ends at Atlantic Blvd. and a railroad crossing surrounded by what?  It's at the far edge of San Marco and St. Nicholas and neither/nor.  Expand the thing to Shands and pass through more acres of underdeveloped land to end at a hospital that, like the college campus, consists of occupants in a self contained commuter campus.

The only way the Skyway could possibly work is if it was fully integrated into a very high density environment that features the many mixed uses that create trips.  The Skyway has shown that not only can it not create such an environment (even though this was another one of those pie-in-the-sky promises made by its proponents) but it may actually serve to deconstruct it.  It's no accident, to me, that some of the most barren streets in Jax run along the Skyway system.

For those who claim they can find "users" for these routes, that will not be enough.  There has to such a volume of users that these routes justify their investment versus, once again, spending the money on other mass transit modes that may serve far more "users" for the money.

[dougskiles]

Does anyone find it funny that we're even talking about fixing turnstiles and eliminating duplicate bus service as a way to improve our transit sytem?  Shouldn't we expect this type of stuff from those in charge?  When we will start holding people accountable?

We need to start making more noise.  Is there a way to get this message to a broader audience?  Speaking of which, exactly how broad is our audience?

[stjr]

FTA Circular 5010.1D, “Grant Management Requirements,” October 1, 2008, http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/C_5010_1D_Finalpub.pdf, provides guidance on property disposition requirements.  Upon sale of FTA assisted property, especially if the useful life of that property has not expired, the grantee will need to return to FTA’s proportionate share of the remaining Federal interest in that property.  Also, even if the “useful life” of the property has expired, if a unit of that property has sold for $5,000 or more, FTA would be entitled to its proportionate share of the proceeds of that sale.

Nice try, Ock.  This isn't a wholesale refund of the cost of the system. Rather, it treats the Feds as co-partners.

First, there is recognition of remaining "useful life".  Translated, as the system is depreciated, there would be less and less "value" to "share" with our "partners", the Feds.  I can't imagine the Skyway being depreciated over longer than 30 years, maybe much less for its controls and cars.  On this basis, we are approaching a zero value every day that goes by if we aren't already there for much of its components after 20 plus years.

Second, if the useful life has expired, the Feds want a share of the sale proceeds.  Fair enough, since they are our "partners".  But, we only pay out of what we get.  No net cost to the local taxpayers as you and others have claimed.

As I suspected, the Feds do not appear to be an issue in abandoning the Skyway.  This issue has been way overblown by proponents.

[dougskiles]

stjr, what you are saying makes sense.  It is hard for me to believe that the FTA would expect us to pay back the money for the skyway.  However, I also believe that by removing it we would put the nail in the coffin for ever receiving federal money for anything anytime soon.

My motivation for better utilization of the skyway isn't so much because I love riding in a monorail across the river (although it does provide some excellent scenery).  My motivation is that I really like fixed transit systems and the quality of life that it provides.  I can spend that time catching up on emails, returning phone calls or getting to know some other people in our city.  Just in the past few weeks, I have had a chance to meet people working on the courthouse - talk about some crazy stories there!  A guy who works for the IRS - which admittedly made me a little uneasy... and a nice couple from Mississippi who had come to town for the Gator Bowl to watch their son perform in the band.  Had I been in my car, I would have experienced none of that.

Currently, the skyway is all we have.  Should we have gone with a different system from the beginning?  I don't think anyone would argue with that.  Should we look for more sensible ways to expand our public transit system?  Absolutely.  But until we have those systems in place, why would we dismantle what we have now?  And those other systems don't work as well for crossing the river and don't work at all crossing railroad tracks on grade - so we would still need something similar to the skyway to reach the neighborhoods further south.  In addition, the extension to Atlantic Blvd would make a great connection point to a commuter rail system.