Current Courthouse

[thelakelander]

If anyone cares, it cost about $25 million to develop the old terminal into the Prime Osborn Center.  There are also several articles, spanning a couple of decades in the library's special collections department, about it not being the right site and about the Adams Mark doing more damage than good.

[ChriswUfGator]

If anyone cares, it cost about $25 million to develop the old terminal into the Prime Osborn Center.  There are also several articles, spanning a couple of decades in the library's special collections department, about it not being the right site and about the Adams Mark doing more damage than good.

What's a ballpark on what it would cost to undo the convention center and turn it back into a train station?

Would have to be more cost effective than this $100mm JTA mess wouldn't it?

[futurejax]

That sounds nice, but we don't the money to fix the car at once, and in this case the car can't be fixed overnight. Rebuilding a functioning economy in our dead downtown will probably take 5+ years if we started today. Which considering the current administration, we're not starting today.

Long term rebuilding will take +10 if we started today.  However, we're still not starting from scratch.  With a little connectivity, things that don't work today can work overnight.  Also, we can rebuild without immediately spending millions.  Things like eliminating hostile policy changes don't require much capital.  Also, taking advantage of public/private partnerships is a great way to move forward on many items we assume can only happen with 100% public capital.

Do you disagree that, in the current state of downtown, a convention center is not the best use of funds, or that the convention center is about 99.99999% likely to be another total failure without all of the aforementioned pieces that are necessary to attract visitors to that facility?

Orlando, Vegas, Mobile, Birmingham aside, I see there being a benefit to the vibrancy of the Northbank area if we just picked up the Prime Osborn in its current state today and dropped it next to the Hyatt.  That benefit is connectivity and clustering compact uses within a compact setting.  I see such a move as a great positive for places like the Landing, Hyatt, Northbank Riverwalk and Bay Street because of the synergy generated by connectivity.  

With that said, a new convention center would not be my top priority but I see no harm in finding public/private opportunities to get it relocated to the courthouse site, which would then free up the old terminal to be used for what it was originally built for.

If you and I agree that conventions don't want to visit a dead city and that the economy needs to be rebuilt downtown before that will ever be successful, then I'm not understanding why we don't agree that whatever funds we're discussing spending on a hundred-million-dollar stereo for our broken car needs to be spent on fixing the engine and we can revisit the stereo later. Nobody will ride in a broken car, no matter how nice the stereo is. The problem is really exactly that simple.

My point with DT is even in its current state, it has assets.  What's considered dead now can easily turn around overnight when the proper complementing uses are placed adjacent to it.  So over all, I agree that it will take decades to truly transform DT.  However, pockets of vibrant street life can be created fairly quickly if the right uses are placed next to others.

This. I mean, first and foremost people need to get this, "jeez, there's 12 million things to fix" mentality out of there minds.  Because guess what?  They're NEVER all going to get fixed.  Go to NYC sometime, there's a trillion problems.  But they take what works and they keep making those things better while at the same time trying to fix the parts that don't.  Like anything else in this world it's all about figuring out your strengths and working to accentuate them.  If the courthouse and annex were leveled and private investment brought retail/restaurants/bars in its place while at the same time the parking lot was turned into say partial greenspace with a nice riverwalk and maybe some more of the former how much would just that right there drastically change a lot of the northbank persona?  A LOT.  And that's not 10 years, that's not 5.  Should be more like 3, tops.  In short not a long time.  Get one area that is thought of as hip, fun, and enjoyable to walk around and build from there. 

[futurejax]

If the courthouse and annex were leveled and private investment brought retail/restaurants/bars in its place while at the same time the parking lot was turned into say partial greenspace with a nice riverwalk and maybe some more of the former how much would just that right there drastically change a lot of the northbank persona?  A LOT.  And that's not 10 years, that's not 5.  Should be more like 3, tops.  In short not a long time.  Get one area that is thought of as hip, fun, and enjoyable to walk around and build from there.

Thats a complex set of ifs and ands that have to be pulled of simultaneously in order to make one specific outcome work isnt it?

Of course the biggest part of that is the private investment part.  Like the only consequential part in fact.

Why would it make sense to tear all of that stuff down without a solid offer on the table for replacement use and value?

It wouldn't, nobody said it would. And why do these events need to be pulled off simultaneously?  I am simply suggesting a not so hard to imagine hypothetical playing out that could turn one piece of the northbank into a district for dining and entertainment, (which is already located there in a small amount).  And I am presuming the hopefully private investors would be the ones tearing down the structures after purchase.

[futurejax]

I drew the ifs, and, buts, and 'at the same times' from your post, future jax.

And I'm just trying to make a point about this kind of thinking.  Anything that has three or more unknowns or uncontrollable factors is unworkable, ive found.

I don't disagree with the vision at all, but I am interested in how you think waterfront green space contributes to a vibrant downtown.

Partial, i.e. a little?  Some kind of 'public square' along the river along with dining, nightlife, perhaps some residential mixed in and next to.....Basically, I think it can contribute as one piece of the puzzle.  Not the puzzle itself.  Do you not?

[thelakelander]

There's a ton of foot traffic in DT that's currently hidden from the streets.  A quick, affordable turn around would be the change of public policy to allow more signage , outdoor seating or better integration with the sidewalks from businesses already operating in DT.  In other words, expose what already exists.  This is something that can change the face of a corridor like Laura Street in less than 6 months with minimal investment.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-nov-creating-downtown-vibrancy-by-exposing-secret-retail





Q. What do the businesses below lack that the ones above don't?





A. Sidewalk integration.  

We don't need parks, aquariums, a 1000 condos at the Shipyards or a Macy's for this.  Just policy change giving businesses the ability to proper expose themselves to potential customers.

[dougskiles]

I take it that there is something in our ordinance code that prevents restaurants from using public sidewalks?  Forget singles and doubles, changing that is a bases-loaded walk.  Score a run without a swing of the bat.

If we want to swing the bat a few times, then we need to widen our sidewalks downtown and make the travel lanes for cars smaller.  I'm not talking about ripping up streets, just bumping each sidewalk out 2 to 4 feet (depending on how many lanes we have to make narrower).  There is no reason a vehicle travel lane for a street with 20 mph speed can't be 10 feet wide instead of 12 feet.  It would also help to slow the cars down and make the sidewalks more comfortable.

I'm certain that none of these ideas are new and probably exist in all 100 hundred of the previous 'vision' plans for downtown.

[thelakelander]

What's a ballpark on what it would cost to undo the convention center and turn it back into a train station?

Would have to be more cost effective than this $100mm JTA mess wouldn't it?

Sanford's new $10 million Amtrak station just opened in October 2010.







- A new Amtrak station is open near Orlando for the more than 244,000 annual Amtrak Auto Train passengers. At about 10,000 square feet, the station in Sanford seats 600 passengers and is about four times larger than its predecessor.

- In addition to the larger passenger lounge, the modern structure contains a ticket counter, café, restrooms, and a gift shop.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Amtrak opens new Sanford Auto Train station - National Train Travel | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/train-travel-in-national/amtrak-opens-new-sanford-auto-train-station#ixzz1BIE1lr2P

We already have a structure, so there is no need to build a new one.  Temporary rail operations should be able to take advantage of the convention center's concourse and a former waiting room within the existing structure.  While some track and platform improvements will be needed, its hard imagine this adding up to half of what it cost Sanford to construct a new modern station from scratch.

[thelakelander]

If we want to swing the bat a few times, then we need to widen our sidewalks downtown and make the travel lanes for cars smaller.  I'm not talking about ripping up streets, just bumping each sidewalk out 2 to 4 feet (depending on how many lanes we have to make narrower).  There is no reason a vehicle travel lane for a street with 20 mph speed can't be 10 feet wide instead of 12 feet.  It would also help to slow the cars down and make the sidewalks more comfortable.

Or just keep the curbs in place and when the time comes to resurface the street, add bike lanes or diagonal parking.


In downtown St. Petersburg, a lane was taken out and converted into a separated bike trail.


In New Orleans, this street is an example of simply adding in bike lanes when the time to resurface comes along.  If we can coordinate this with public works, we could consider this as another bases loaded walk.

[futurejax]

I drew the ifs, and, buts, and 'at the same times' from your post, future jax.

And I'm just trying to make a point about this kind of thinking.  Anything that has three or more unknowns or uncontrollable factors is unworkable, ive found.

I don't disagree with the vision at all, but I am interested in how you think waterfront green space contributes to a vibrant downtown.

Partial, i.e. a little?  Some kind of 'public square' along the river along with dining, nightlife, perhaps some residential mixed in and next to.....Basically, I think it can contribute as one piece of the puzzle.  Not the puzzle itself.  Do you not?

I don't know, really.  Why do you think it would?  What would it contribute that friendship park, the two riverwalks, the landing and metropolitan do not?

I wouldn't think of the Landing as green space.  To me Metro park is at least for the time being a little out of bounds; there's no foot traffic down there.  Friendship is across the river.  I just think if there was say a little greenspace (i'm thinking a decent swatch, not anywhere near the entire area). Located where say the gigantic courthouse parking lot was right now with various commerce around it and along the river it could give an easy focal point of public space on the northbank for people to meet up, hang out, (watch an outdoor concert, have a picnic, am I dreaming?) and then visit these hypothetical new establishments nearby and then along Bay Street. 

[thelakelander]

Thinking out of the box, how about a mixed use convention center is a green roof?  Retail/dining facing the river & Bay Street, exhibition hall in center of site with integrated parking and green roof for additional public space.

with various commerce around it and along the river it could give an easy focal point of public space on the northbank for people to meet up, hang out, (watch an outdoor concert, have a picnic, am I dreaming?) and then visit these hypothetical new establishments nearby and then along Bay Street.

Further thinking about this, you could also just fix up the Landing's courtyard and the green space in front of the TUPAC and achieve the same thing for millions less.

[thelakelander]

Why doesnt this happen spontaneously at friendship, metropolitan park and along the riverwalk?

No connectivity between complementing uses and an ability to ignore PPS's 10 principles for designing a successful public space.

[dougskiles]

Why doesnt this happen spontaneously at friendship, metropolitan park and along the riverwalk?

One reason it doesn't happen at Metropolitan Park is because it is always locked.  There have been several times when I've been out with my family looking for a place to just hang out on a big lawn and watch the kids play.  Metropolitan Park would be great for that, but you can't get in.  I'm not sure what is about this city and it's love for fences and gates.

So - there is another 'single' for you.  Take down the fence at Metropolitan Park.

[thelakelander]

Metropolitan Park is also a mile away from the downtown core.  Might as well head to Memorial Park in Riverside since both require a car to get to from the core of DT.

[futurejax]

I drew the ifs, and, buts, and 'at the same times' from your post, future jax.

And I'm just trying to make a point about this kind of thinking.  Anything that has three or more unknowns or uncontrollable factors is unworkable, ive found.

I don't disagree with the vision at all, but I am interested in how you think waterfront green space contributes to a vibrant downtown.

Partial, i.e. a little?  Some kind of 'public square' along the river along with dining, nightlife, perhaps some residential mixed in and next to.....Basically, I think it can contribute as one piece of the puzzle.  Not the puzzle itself.  Do you not?

I don't know, really.  Why do you think it would?  What would it contribute that friendship park, the two riverwalks, the landing and metropolitan do not?

I wouldn't think of the Landing as green space.  To me Metro park is at least for the time being a little out of bounds; there's no foot traffic down there.  Friendship is across the river.  I just think if there was say a little greenspace (i'm thinking a decent swatch, not anywhere near the entire area). Located where say the gigantic courthouse parking lot was right now with various commerce around it and along the river it could give an easy focal point of public space on the northbank for people to meet up, hang out, (watch an outdoor concert, have a picnic, am I dreaming?) and then visit these hypothetical new establishments nearby and then along Bay Street.  

Why doesnt this happen spontaneously at friendship, metropolitan park and along the riverwalk?

I don't have all the answers  

but probably mot likely due to the reasons stated in posts above this