FDOT Proposing $118 Million For Amtrak/FEC Project

[tufsu1]

Well checking FDOT count sites, I-4 is running at about 125,000 cars a day west of Orlando, and I-95 290,000 north of Miami. Looks like I-95 WITH Tri-Rail would still win the need test. TUFSU1 Got any other numbers?

OCKLAWAHA

yep....got to read what I originally wrote Ock...I was careful to note I-95 north of Palm Beach (remember Tri Rail already exists to the south)....so here you go:

I-95 in northern Palm Beach County - 87,000
I-95 in southern Martin County - 68,000
I-95 in northern Martin County - 51,000
I-95 in Port St. Lucie - 47,800
I-95 in Indian River County - 36,000
I95 in Palm Bay (southern Brevard County) - 50,000
I-95 in Port Canaveral (mid Brevard County) - 46,000
I-95 in northern Brevard County - 28,000
I-95 south of Daytona - 37,000
I-95 north of I-4/US 92 interchanges - 70,000

and...

I-4 just north of Beachline Expwy (Orlando) - 158,000
I-4 just north of Disney (Orange County) - 184,000
I-4 south of Disney/Western Expwy. (Osceola County) - 97,000
I-4 at US 92 (eastern Polk County) - 96,000
I-4 in central Polk County - 75,000
I-4 in western Lakeland (Polk County) - 85,000
I-4 in Plant City (eastern Hillsborough County) - 103,000
I-4 east of I-75 (Hillsborough County) - 127,000
I-4 east of 40th St (Tampa) - 151,000
I-4 east of I-275 (Tampa) - 164,000

All are 2009 counts....and for those who wish to investigate themselves, here is the website

http://www2.dot.state.fl.us/FloridaTrafficOnline/viewer.html

[middleman]

First off, I am the middleman. I am independent politically, and my primary motivation is fairness.

That being said, a claim that the HSR spending in Florida or anywhere else was politically motivated sent my BS meter to a full 10. Please present actually evidence that there is political motivation here. I would think a discussion board like this should be void of political opinion.

[tufsu1]

middleman...I don't think Lakelander was saying the funding was entirely politically motivated....but we all know that many of the projects funded by DC (or state govt for tyhat matter) have some political motivation....that's why there are slogans like "Corinne Delivers!"

fact is, Florida ws is the closest HSR line to being "shovel ready" which is a big reason for all the funding....but ity sure doesn't hurt that is a large swing state and central part of the state has lots of votes.

[Jaxson]

Well checking FDOT count sites, I-4 is running at about 125,000 cars a day west of Orlando, and I-95 290,000 north of Miami. Looks like I-95 WITH Tri-Rail would still win the need test. TUFSU1 Got any other numbers?

OCKLAWAHA

+1

[thelakelander]

First off, I am the middleman. I am independent politically, and my primary motivation is fairness.

I'm am independent too.   

That being said, a claim that the HSR spending in Florida or anywhere else was politically motivated sent my BS meter to a full 10. Please present actually evidence that there is political motivation here. I would think a discussion board like this should be void of political opinion.

See Tufsu1's quote:

fact is, Florida ws is the closest HSR line to being "shovel ready" which is a big reason for all the funding....but ity sure doesn't hurt that is a large swing state and central part of the state has lots of votes.

I've been in this long enough to know that there are political undertones behind all moves, even good ones.  Hopefully, Florida will take advantage of the extra money before the political climate changes.  As for how the discussion board operates, we're all entitled to express our views on a wide range of issues.  The interaction of debate is what makes this forum interesting, imo.

[spuwho]

Personally, I wish all Fed Infrastructure funding was based solely on metrics and merit and was devoid of politics completely.

I think it would resolve about 40 to 50% of our infrastructure woes nationally.

As we used to say, "no one wants their name above a new toilet" meaning that many like to have their names associated with prestigious projects, not ones that are not publicly flattering or can't send the "bring home the bacon" message.

If Rep. Mica got funding for a major replacement sewer system for some city, do you think he would want it named after him (even if it cost just as much as a new highway bridge)? "The Mica Memorial Sewer", of course not. No one would.

Building new stuff is always politically desirable, not replacing or fixing the existing. That is just our nature.

[middleman]

Lakelander,

Yes, of course, you are allowed to express your views. In this case, your "view" was stated as a fact. And I'm challenging you to back up your statement with supporting facts.

"There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market."

If you had said, "In My Opinion", I wouldn't have responded. I'm just a little touchy on the subject because too often today opinions and distortions get stated as fact, and the gullible masses believe them to be facts. These statements need to be challenged. For instance, one statement I've seen on this board "Republicans are Anti-Rail"... not a fact at all... And that non-fact has been challenged repeatedly... as it should be.

Getting back to HSR... Florida got this money because it was already planned and it was ready to implement. That is the fact. That it was politically motivated is unknown, therefore is not a fact. I don't disagree with the broad-brush statement that all government spending has some political motivation. But in any particular case, how would you know?  I hope you don't mind that I'm pointing this out.

[thelakelander]

Lakelander,

Yes, of course, you are allowed to express your views. In this case, your "view" was stated as a fact. And I'm challenging you to back up your statement with supporting facts.

"There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money and private entities willing to pay for its O&M for 30 years and it has nothing to do with Disney.  It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time, and it helps rail companies get their foot in the american market."

If you had said, "In My Opinion", I wouldn't have responded. I'm just a little touchy on the subject because too often today opinions and distortions get stated as fact, and the gullible masses believe them to be facts. These statements need to be challenged. For instance, one statement I've seen on this board "Republicans are Anti-Rail"... not a fact at all... And that non-fact has been challenged repeatedly... as it should be.

Getting back to HSR... Florida got this money because it was already planned and it was ready to implement. That is the fact. That it was politically motivated is unknown, therefore is not a fact. I don't disagree with the broad-brush statement that all government spending has some political motivation. But in any particular case, how would you know?  I hope you don't mind that I'm pointing this out.

If it will make you sleep better tonight, I'll simply edit that post to include "in my opinion."  With that said, I can present information along with links to the sources that lead me to this view but in the grand scheme of things, I've got higher priorities to deal with right now (I may do it later, if this is still an issue after I put more pressing fires out).

[Ocklawaha]

If Rep. Mica got funding for a major replacement sewer system for some city, do you think he would want it named after him (even if it cost just as much as a new highway bridge)? "The Mica Memorial Sewer", of course not. No one would.

Be careful with that one Spuwho, Florida Governor Martinez ran his whole campaign based on his "water treatment plant." Here is just one of 10,000 articles about the "Miracle of Martinez..." In this case the Governor not only hung his name above a toilet, he hung it above ALL of the toilets... The question is, did he ever do anything else?

OCKLAWAHA

Martinez was well schooled on water issues when he arrived in Tallahassee in 1987. As mayor of Tampa from 1979 to 1987, he ushered in a new era marked by the opening of the Howard F. Curren AWT plant. Born and raised just a stone’s throw from the Hillsborough River, he grew up fishing the river and Old Tampa Bay.

In the 1970s, Martinez served on the governing board of the Southwest Florida Water Management District, chairing three of its river basin boards and presiding as hearing officer for the setting of lake levels. “That’s where I got my first immersion in water issues,” he says. “As a result I gained a great deal of respect for the district and its mission.”

In marshalling support for SWIM, Martinez insisted on two things: “that we don’t create a new agency â€" the district already had the staff and knew the issues, and that the Tampa Bay estuary be designated a priority,” he said.

Governor Martinez made other sizable contributions as well, establishing Preservation 2000 in 1990, the largest state conservation land acquisition program in the country. The 10-year program bankrolled $300-million a year for the purchase of environmentally sensitive lands with funding from bonds and documentary stamps. Less visible but no less noteworthy, Martinez also backed legislation to allow long-term municipal bonding of stormwater systems, making it economically feasible for cities and counties to finance stormwater improvements.
SOURCE: http://www.baysoundings.com/wint06/abm.html

[Ocklawaha]

yep....got to read what I originally wrote Ock...I was careful to note I-95 north of Palm Beach (remember Tri Rail already exists to the south)....so here you go:
I-4 just north of Beachline Expwy (Orlando) - 158,000
I-4 just north of Disney (Orange County) - 184,000
All are 2009 counts....and for those who wish to investigate themselves, here is the website

TUFSU, Yep, same site I was on. My point was that even WITH tri-rail I-95 is worse south of West Palm Beach then any place on I-4. It would seem to me that would indicate we need attention to Southeast Florida's rail-traffic solutions before we jump off a cliff with a train on I-4 that you admit won't really touch the locals. So in the end, we do nothing for South Florida, and we do nothing for residents in Central Florida, but we promise all of them a flying train... see what I mean?

That money would be SOOOOO MUCH better spent if we invested it in a TALGO or other TILT TRAIN technology and spread the system state wide on conventional track...track that we already have minus improvements such as stations, signals, and additional passing sidings (capacity).

Would you agree with me that if HIGH SPEED RAIL fails miserably in Florida, it will damage the entire industry for years to come?

OCKLAWAHA

[middleman]

We actually participated in the run up process to Florida's High Speed Rail award from the Obama administration, and were able to view, first hand, the politics at play.

I'm sure that there is politics at play in any government planning. Was there any politics that you saw that supported Lakelander's theory that spending HSR money in Fla is attempt by the Obama administration to politically help him in a swing state?

A lot of states are getting this money. Including states like Texas, where federal spending isn't going to buy the administration any political capital. Trying to think about this logically, the money gets spent on HSR in Texas and California, where there probably isn't a whole lot of political gain to be had from it. But since Florida is a swing state, clearly this is secret plot by the Obama administration to buy votes! Sorry for getting sarcastic. Claiming this is a politically motivated project doesn't make sense. If anyone has any real evidence that this is about politics, even a wee bit, let's see it.

[Ocklawaha]

Actually the best evidence is probably the lack of evidence. The fact that there is no sane reason to move forward with a railroad down the middle of I-4, from an airport, to amusement park, to parking garage, should tell all of us something... CHA CHING! The entire Florida project is awash in mutual butt scratching, which might explain the smell.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Hark unto thy words, Othelo! Be ye not deceived by the workings of those who would do the Devils bidding.

OCKLAWAHA

[middleman]

I suppose the best proof however, is the fact that all the politicians in the state deployed lobbyist efforts, often making personal appearances at the conferences in order to interact with political appointees at the meetings.

To me that would infer the nefarious presence of politics alone.

However, I also had the benefit of being in several of these meetings, as have most of the people posting.

You should come along next time and watch the opera unfold.

Stephen,
Again, I do not doubt you at all that local and state politicians have had their hand in this. I'm sure industry lobbyist have influenced the HSR plan too. This makes sense, its what politicians do, make a stake in government projects, particularly big ones, for personal or political gain.

But the statement in question was about the Federal Administration's reason for selecting Florida for this money. To paraphrase: "There is a reason you have the Obama administration pouring in money... It politically helps him in a major swing state, come reelection time". So, I'm confused, are you saying that you saw lots of politics going on in the process leading up to the award. And that somehow translates to "Obama gave Florida the award to help him get reelected" What about "Florida got the award because they had a HSR plan already in the works which they could implement relatively quickly"?

So again, I think the comment was baseless and was probably meant to be an Obama smear. I'm open-minded though... show me some evidence to the contrary, and I'll be happy to reevaluate.

[Lunican]

What about "Florida got the award because they had a HSR plan already in the works which they could implement relatively quickly"?

Actually, North Carolina was much further along with their High Speed Rail plan. Unlike Florida, over the past decade they have actually invested in their Raleigh to Charlotte corridor and planned for a high speed connection to Richmond and DC.