FDOT Proposing $118 Million For Amtrak/FEC Project

[spuwho]

Wasn't the Amtrak station moved north of town because the current Amtrak route forks off between the station and downtown? Given the current route, if the old downtown station was used, it would have to back up to continue on its route to Orange Park and beyond. Assuming that the FEC Amtrak route is revived, the downtown station would work great for me, since I commute in from St. Augustine, but given that a large portion of the Amtrak traffic would veer off before the downtown station, what incentive does Amtrak have in relocating to the downtown station???

I'm a newbie here, so maybe this has been discussed before, but is there a serious plan to revive the downtown station for Amtrak use, or is this just wishful thinking for the urban-transport-enlightened that inhabit this message board?

...jim

All trains will be split or rejoined in Jacksonville, meaning that switching will be necessary. This was always the reason why the old terminal had both through and stub tracks. We had more switching operations then any other US Terminal. Trains entered/or departed for over:

NYC-DC-CHARLESTON-SAV-JESSUP-JAX
NYC-DC-RALEIGH-SAV-KINGSLAND-JAX
DET-BUFFALO-CLEVELAND-CHICAGO-CINCINNATI-ATLANTA-VALDOSTA-JAX
CHICAGO-LOUISVILLE-NASHVILLE-ATLANTA-MANCHESTER-WAYCROSS-JAX
CHICAGO-LOUISVILLE-BIRMINGHAM-MONTGOMERY-WAYCROSS-JAX
CHICAGO/ST LOUIS-CAIRO-BIRMINGHAM-COLUMBUS-WAYCROSS-JAX
NEW ORLEANS-PENSACOLA-TALLY-JAX

And departed/entered from

JAX-DAYTONA-FT. PIERCE-W.PALM-MIAMI
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-AUBURNDALE-LAKELAND-TAMPA
JAX-BALDWIN-GAINESVILLE-OCALA-LEESBURG-TRILBY-ST PETE
JAX-BALDWIN-STARKE-OCALA-DADE CITY-PLANT CITY-TAMPA
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-AUBURNDALE-FT.MYERS-NAPLES
JAX-BALDWIN-STARKE-OCALA-DADE CITY-PLANT CITY-TAMPA-SARASOTA-VENICE
JAX-PALATKA-ORLANDO-LAKE WALES-SEBRING-PALMDALE-EVERGLADES CITY

So for over a century, any train could come into Jax with cars for any two-three-four or more of these destinations, and leave with cars from the two-three-four or more destinations.

Amtrak has finally woke the hell up and figured out they are running trains and not non-stop airplanes, so the old terminal is coming back to life... maybe sooner then we can get it ready. But the project is very real, and actually dates to around 1980 when the USDOT did a recommendation that we have a 12 track station. So of course JTA planned only three... Let's hope that a more intelligent mind prevails.

CHECK OUT THE ARCHIVES:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/search?cx=001374210287472026848%3Aanwcdk3sekc&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=jacksonville+terminal&sa.x=0&sa.y=0#1151

OCKLAWAHA

Sounds good back when, but Jacksonville isn't the rail hub it was back in the day.  Chicago's Union Station can support multiple backups because they have an infrastructure to support it (and a fare structure).  Jacksonville is not a hub and supporting multiple breakups and tie ups is expensive. Perhaps Amshack is where it is because it was the lowest cost alternative for through train support.

If Amtrak is serious about making Jax a hub once more and having passengers actually make realistic transfers between trains, then they should have the infrastructure to support it. I am not talking about numbers of tracks, I mean switchers, support and administration staff, luggage claim, etc.

[Jaxson]

We are in quite a catch-22.  Not many people in Jacksonville know about Amtrak service.  When I tell friends and others about my train travels, they are surprised that I was able to board a train from our city.  We can't increase our Amtrak presence because we don't use it and we don't use Amtrak because its presence is not apparent to many.  Egads!

[yapp1850]

state of  Georgia did  study in 2004 for passenger rail from atlanta to jacksonville, 3 options
1   1  round  trip   79mph    6 hrs
2   3  round  trips  79 mph   6  hrs
3   3  round  trips  110 mph  5  hrs
104-394  million
what will be the differice from this one and the new they are doing now.

[thelakelander]

Perhaps Amshack is where it is because it was the lowest cost alternative for through train support.

If Amtrak is serious about making Jax a hub once more and having passengers actually make realistic transfers between trains, then they should have the infrastructure to support it. I am not talking about numbers of tracks, I mean switchers, support and administration staff, luggage claim, etc.

As additional routes open, the number of employees working these positions will increase.  However, its going to be up to Jacksonville to decide if they want this potential economic engine to take place in DT or the amshack off New Kings.  With that in mind, I believe moving Amtrak back to the Jacksonville Terminal and downtown is more important for Jacksonville than it is for Amtrak.  Btw, speaking of backing into stations, Amtrak does this in Tampa and used to do it at the Jacksonville amshack before Katrina took out the New Orleans connection a couple of years ago.

[Ocklawaha]

Sounds good back when, but Jacksonville isn't the rail hub it was back in the day.

You are correct, today we have more then TWICE the traffic we had "back when."  Better track, better signaling, better schedules, and less railroad yards - (which within the industry is KNOWN as a good thing). Back when we were the headquarters city for one class one railroad, not so today... Today we are the headquarters city for one class one, and over 40 class two railroads... more than Chicago has.

Chicago's Union Station can support multiple backups because they have an infrastructure to support it (and a fare structure). 

...And we will have ours restored, which by the way had more tracks then any of the Chicago Stations

Chicago Union Station - has 24 tracks, Jacksonville Terminal - had 29, and even in this age will likely have 8-12 when it is reopened. All tracks in Jacksonville will likely be through tracks, switchable from both ends, Chicago Union is a stub track or more properly a "Headhouse Station".

Jacksonville is not a hub and supporting multiple breakups and tie ups is expensive.

Correct again, we are not a hub, we are the nations 5Th largest railroad hub, and we CAN support the expected additional 100-250 additional freight and passenger trains daily (source:AAR)

Perhaps Amshack is where it is because it was the lowest cost alternative for through train support.

The Amshack is where it is because at the time (1974) it was still the mentality that "the railroad owns and operates the station," and what a station it was... but only 12 trains a day passed through, and were broken up and rejoined there. Today, the whole philosophy has changed to public ownership just like highways or airport facilities. Thus Jacksonville would be/is STUPID if they keep the station, "on a dead end road, between two junk yards and under a highway overpass..."

The railroaders of that era couldn't believe it when that new station went up, of course the government thought the railroads just didn't know how to run a railroad, so to "teach them," AMTRAK hired airline and bus executives. In a tongue and cheek retaliation the local railroads told the tale that the station was out of town so the public wouldn't complain when the trains LANDED.

If Amtrak is serious about making Jax a hub once more and having passengers actually make realistic transfers between trains, then they should have the infrastructure to support it.

As I said, we ARE THE RAIL HUB OF FLORIDA, but you seem to misunderstand railroading...IE: NOBODY TRANSFERS in Jacksonville, few ever did. Rail passengers can sleep, play cards, talk or sip an adult beverage in a lounge, while airline passenger run through airports. The trains will pull into Jacksonville, and a switch engine will go to work pulling it apart, and setting the various cars (with passengers) out on different tracks and building what amounts to TWO or THREE trains. If the crew is good, as was the case in our terminal for 100 years, you can switch the cars without spilling the soup.

I am not talking about numbers of tracks, I mean switchers, support and administration staff, luggage claim, etc.

We will have all the tracks we need, and already have the switchers, support and staff, to which we'll add employees of the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE owned and operated station.

OCKLAWAHA

[yapp1850]

jacksonville should florida passenger rail hub and atlanta should be the  rail hub for the southeast just as new york city penn station is for the northeast

[middleman]

Thank you very much Ocklawaha. You are a wealth of information. And thanks for turning me on to the AAR.

[spuwho]

"Delaney said lawmakers also will be asked to sign off on an agreement with Amtrak that Florida taxpayers would be held liable if a track problem caused a wreck on 72 miles of state-owned track from Miami north."

While it gets little mention in the article, this is a big issue.

The liability issue is what is holding up the CSX ROW transfer to FDOT in Orlando.  FDOT is refusing to assume Amtrak liabilities. They think Amtrak (having a bigger pocket) should get their own liability policy to cover these events.

Under the Amtrak Act of 1973, the host railroad provides all liability insurance.

[Ocklawaha]

All shined up and waiting for the word... FEC RY E-8 Locomotive 1594

"Delaney said lawmakers also will be asked to sign off on an agreement with Amtrak that Florida taxpayers would be held liable if a track problem caused a wreck on 72 miles of state-owned track from Miami north."

While it gets little mention in the article, this is a big issue.

The liability issue is what is holding up the CSX ROW transfer to FDOT in Orlando.  FDOT is refusing to assume Amtrak liabilities. They think Amtrak (having a bigger pocket) should get their own liability policy to cover these events.

Under the Amtrak Act of 1973, the host railroad provides all liability insurance.

The issue effectively ended DECEMBER 8, 2010.

SunRail back on track after Amtrak backs down

THE ORLANDO SENTINEL, FLA. | DAN TRACY | Thu, Dec 9, 2:51 AM

Dec. 09--Amtrak backed off its demands Wednesday for an ironclad insurance deal with SunRail, clearing the tracks for the Central Florida commuter train to roll again toward a startup in 2013.

The national carrier dropped its opposition to the $1.2 billion project during an hourlong meeting in the office of U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Among those in attendance was U.S. Rep. John Mica , R- Winter Park, soon to be chairman of the powerful transportation committee that oversees funding for Amtrak .

"I think with a change in the winds ... it avoids a lot of heartburn," Mica said.

Mica would not say whether he and LaHood pressured Amtrak CEO Joseph Boardman into ending the stalemate. Boardman also attended the meeting, along with U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D- Jacksonville, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and assorted state and federal officials.

In return for dropping its opposition, Amtrak received a pledge from Mica, Brown, Dyer and the state to lobby the Florida Legislature into approving an insurance deal that would cover the national passenger carrier in case one of its trains collides with SunRail.

http://dailyme.com/story/2010120900000555/sunrail-back-track-amtrak-backs.html

We're back on track to see the return of the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY passenger trains in Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

[spuwho]

"Delaney said lawmakers also will be asked to sign off on an agreement with Amtrak that Florida taxpayers would be held liable if a track problem caused a wreck on 72 miles of state-owned track from Miami north."

While it gets little mention in the article, this is a big issue.

The liability issue is what is holding up the CSX ROW transfer to FDOT in Orlando.  FDOT is refusing to assume Amtrak liabilities. They think Amtrak (having a bigger pocket) should get their own liability policy to cover these events.

Under the Amtrak Act of 1973, the host railroad provides all liability insurance.

The issue effectively ended DECEMBER 8, 2010.

SunRail back on track after Amtrak backs down

THE ORLANDO SENTINEL, FLA. | DAN TRACY | Thu, Dec 9, 2:51 AM

Dec. 09--Amtrak backed off its demands Wednesday for an ironclad insurance deal with SunRail, clearing the tracks for the Central Florida commuter train to roll again toward a startup in 2013.

The national carrier dropped its opposition to the $1.2 billion project during an hourlong meeting in the office of U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Among those in attendance was U.S. Rep. John Mica , R- Winter Park, soon to be chairman of the powerful transportation committee that oversees funding for Amtrak .

"I think with a change in the winds ... it avoids a lot of heartburn," Mica said.

Mica would not say whether he and LaHood pressured Amtrak CEO Joseph Boardman into ending the stalemate. Boardman also attended the meeting, along with U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D- Jacksonville, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and assorted state and federal officials.

In return for dropping its opposition, Amtrak received a pledge from Mica, Brown, Dyer and the state to lobby the Florida Legislature into approving an insurance deal that would cover the national passenger carrier in case one of its trains collides with SunRail.

http://dailyme.com/story/2010120900000555/sunrail-back-track-amtrak-backs.html

We're back on track to see the return of the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY passenger trains in Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock, thanks for the update, this is good news. I have been watching the wire reports out of Tallahassee to see if this ever got worked out.

The big news for Jacksonville from this resolution, is that CSX is going to turn around and use the $35Mil that FDOT is paying for the ROW and using it to build out the infrastructure to support the Mitsui and Hanjin terminals.  This will significantly reduce the truck loads for transcons coming to Jaxport and help make the port a core terminal for international commerce.

Some people may not see it in such a small event...but this decision will have a bigger impact on Jacksonville then it will on Sun Rail.  This is very good news.

[thelakelander]

This is something we originally discussed a couple of years ago:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-sunrail-bill-passes-what-it-means-for-jacksonville

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-apr-csx-jaxport-plan-opens-the-door-for-commuter-rail

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-aug-central-florida-commuter-rail-deal-may-help-jacksonville

[Jaxson]

Whether we get passenger rail back on the FEC line depends on how much clout North Florida will have with the new administration.  It seems that all of the goodies go to Central and South Florida because we know that politicians seek their precious votes.  Why bother trying to buy off North Florida when we are already in the pocket for one party?  I am keeping my fingers crossed that we will move forward with FEC/Amtrak...

[thelakelander]

I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

[Ocklawaha]

I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

This is the one route in the entire nation where just plain knee slapping common sense say's their should be a train, and even most of the Republican's get it.  The benefit to Jacksonville with the restoration of this route and having that station back downtown, EVEN in a temporary trailer, is incalculable.

Fortunately for us, if your going to run a passenger train from anywhere north or west to anywhere in Florida, you MUST pass through JACKSONVILLE. We win by default, riding on our forefathers brilliance.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jaxson]

I think passenger rail on the FEC has little to do with the political climate of North Florida.  It seems like the FEC/Amtrak project is being spearheaded by communities south of us.  The track just happens to run through Jax.

I find it rather curious, though, that all of the emphasis has been on developing light rail between Orlando and Tampa, but mostly neglecting the east coast of the state.  If I were in power, I would be working overtime to get some light rail on the east coast to alleviate the congestion on I-95.  Instead, we are currying favor with the I-4 corridor folks for the sake of a redundant trip that could be done by car just as efficiently.  My point is that Jacksonville is being left out of the light rail loop and does not seem to be getting into it any time soon...