Interesting Discovery - Mystery Street or Railroad??

[Ocklawaha]

Here's one for our HISTORICAL SOCIETY, SOS and/or SPAR...

Working with the GIS specialist at the city to create the only really accurate map of the Jacksonville Streetcar System has brought out two very interesting ghosts found with careful study of the aerials to the 1912 and 1929 map editions.

First off assuming that the Jacksonville Traction Company at some point changed its gauge from the old "Southern Gauge of 5' 2" (same as New Orleans) to Standard Gauge, then the following could get really interesting.

Ghost number one is a clearly marked streetcar line down the center of Jessie from Talleyrand to Florida Avenue, this we know is CERTAIN. Take a look at the aerial and pull it back enough to get the old City utilities buildings in Springfield/Confederate Park, note that the right of way for Jessie goes right off the west end all the way to a match line with Confederate Street, you might also note a gentle curve west of Confederate through the park into the utilities plant.  Coal? Wouldn't this fit the pollution found in the area? Just a theory, but the golden question for a railroad guy is did we have a freight hauling electric railroad? If so we are a world apart from the other cities. Also note that my two maps show two different Jessie Street Alignments, the older being straight as an arrow from Talleyrand to Confederate Street, the Cemetery was extended north at some point causing Jessie to have the jog in it that it has today. 

The other mystery is 8th street shows a car line that runs from Main Street in Springfield to Talleyrand, that much we already knew, but the maps show the line running right off the end of 8th BEYOND Talleyrand and curving South into ??  Just some point above Deer creek? The ACL RR export terminals were below Deer Creek, I wonder what was in that space above it?  Was there any industry along 8Th BETWEEN Talleyrand and Springfield
that needed rail that might not have been available from the freight line just a block south?

Have fun and happy searching...



OCKLAWAHA

[wsansewjs]

The mystery deepens...

-Josh

[spuwho]

Ock sez:

Just a theory, but the golden question for a railroad guy is did we have a freight hauling electric railroad? If so we are a world apart from the other cities.

How so? A world apart from the CA&E? Illinois Terminal?  The CSS&SB?

All were electric based freights running on traction lines. In the case of IT and CSS&SB, later converted to diesel.

Most traction lines of the era were either owned by a power company, a power co-op or they generated their own power and sold excess to the neighborhoods. Either way, they used their own ROW to bring in coal for the boilers running the dynamos.

Help me understand where this separates Jacksonville?

[Ernest Street]

Were the "Doodlebugs" electric? i might be wrong on my eras for this Train/Bus.

[Ocklawaha]

Help me understand where this separates Jacksonville?

A world apart from our HISTORICAL competition in the Sunshine State, some of which are considering streetcar or adding to their starter lines or plans. As a heritage streetcar system (which is pretty much a given due to costs and the strength of our historic districts) it gives us one more star in our crown...

We also had:
The States Largest Streetcar System 
The Most Streetcar Companies   
The only dedicated Lounge Cars known on a southeastern city system
Arguably the only Interurban runs in the State of Florida - CAMP JOHNSTON
One of the first systems to sell out to Motor Transit nee National City Lines nee Phillips 66, Standard Oil, Firestone, Greyhound, General Motors... for uh, um, ahem, "modernization." 

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I don't think the JEA site was ever a power plant.  From what I understand, since 1878, it has been a waterworks site.  Before this, it was low lying land (marsh?) along Hogans Creek.  Also, sanborn maps do show a coal glassification plant once being located on the Park View site.  We have some of those images scanned somewhere in our archives.  Also, the route you drew goes through Old City Cemetery.  The cemetery was established in 1852.  What year did streetcars go into operation in Jacksonville?

[Ocklawaha]

Were the "Doodlebugs" electric? i might be wrong on my eras for this Train/Bus.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Sef7hUOjDXY?fs=1&hl=en_US
About as classic a Doodlebug (ONE CAR TRAIN) as it gets on the narrow gauge EBT in Pennsylvania. Note it has Passenger, Baggage and Mail compartments.


Right era alright, roughly 1910-71 for Doodlebugs, one of the last of which operated until 1971 in Florida, was offered to museums by SCL but none had any financial backing to take it and it was tragically scrapped.

The earliest ones had some pretty crude gas engines or diesel engines in them. To start the engine the engineer had to know the firing order of the cylinders and set off little cap charges with a small hammer.

New-OLD RAIL DOODLEBUGS are being manufactured by EDWARDS RAIL CAR with classic lines and stained glass...
talk about a hell of a unique commuter train! Otherwise the last of these trains gave way to the RAIL DIESEL CAR or RDC in the early 50's - today, the last "RDC'S were the SPV2000's" which look like a self propelled AMFLEET METROLINER CAR - stainless steel but very sharp and not worth 2 cents unless it has been remanfactured as they were delivered hopelessly under engineered compared to their parent RDC's. RDC's were sold with trailer cars (railroadese for a VERY lightweight car that just fit within safety compliance). Trouble soon followed as the light weight and small engines just couldn't do the job without trashing the car... But many, many of them soldier on under Amtrak.

http://www.youtube.com/v/P9l4nE9kSIQ?fs=1&hl=en_US
This is a graphic illustration from Canada of a train of American/Canadian style locomotives pulling a European type "cool train" with 2 classic RDC cars bringing up the rear...

These are the "daddy's' of the DMU cars of today, many of which are of "Cool EUROPEAN high-speed design" and they DON'T meet our safety requirements or FRA Compliance. This is what the big yippee over the Colorado Railcar that visited Jacksonville with John Mica and Representative Brown, I had a shot at one at 80 mph down in Miami and WAS NOT impressed. Plastic and aircraft construction do not a railcar make... BACK TO RDC's FOR ME...

The videos and photo are arranged from oldest to newest.


OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

The streetcars were rolling in 1879 though the tracks for some of the system were laid in 1875 by a failed company. The maps for 1912 which is the first year of JACKSONVILLE TRACTION CO. operation, show the street straight through what is now the cemetery. My guess is the street was moved north and fill dirt used to expand the burial area... I plan to check it out tomorrow on site. If the line continued westerly it might have gone into the gas plant where the Parkview is today.

OCKLAWAHA

[ricker]

awesome studies