Five Drastic Steps To Revive Downtown Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

I'm saying call it quits.  There are other facilities availble, let them do what they do.  If the locals are going to come back, it's not going to be because of a convention center.  Bring J'ville back to the core and let the rest take care of itself.

While there aren't facilities for several events (as mentioned by a few that have attempted to book them), DT isn't going to come back from any one single thing, including a convention center.  Multiple things have to be done and planned accordingly with one another.  The art of multi-tasking is probably one of the main things we can learn from a city like Charlotte or Orlando.

If you want the core to grow you need to reestablish the connectivity between the various urban neighborhoods and bring the economic anchors (transportation/maritime) that established DT back on some level.  It needs to be a self sustaining community.

Semi-true.  You need to bring the sprawl back to the core.  They left for a reason, and you need to give them a reason to come back, whether it's Wal-Mart, Cineplex, Bowling America, Fuddruckers , etc....  They will come back to visit for the same reasons they left to begin with - lack of [insert blank]

No thanks.  Keep your sprawl on the westside.  We've been bringing it to the core for 40 years now.  People didn't leave for Wal-Mart, Bowling America and Fuddruckers.  Our urban core's decline is much more complex than that.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

No thanks.  Keep your sprawl on the westside.  We've been bringing it to the core for 40 years now.  People didn't leave for Wal-Mart, Bowling America and Fuddruckers.  Our urban core's decline is much more complex than that.

Let's focus on this issue for a moment.  What was the reason for the exodus of downtown?

[before you answer, my guesses are:  cost of living, cost of visiting, lack of amenities, perception]

And when you answer that (hopefully without a drawn out link) you can answer me, "Why can't we use the same strategies to bring people back downtown?"

[fieldafm]

Isnt it vaguely possible that they were wrong for advocating a Convention Center in the first place?

Vaguely?  I can here your point... but that would also discount what Jacksonville has to offer out of town guests as a point of destination for tourists and business travelers.  I think in large part, the citizens of our fair city take for granted the physical assets Jacksonville has been blessed with.  I can consider it, but in the final analysis I would conclude that the answer is that we were right to seek out the convention business... we just mismanaged how we got there.

I spend a lot of time downtown on the weekends talking to out of town guests.  I go out of my way to do so, actually.  You'd gain a new appreciation of our city based on what others have to say about it.  

People do want to visit here and enjoy their stay.  Hell we have a great climate, great beaches, cheap hotels, friendly people and excellent golf.  

You and others always talk about the decline of tourism in this city.  So the question I ask you is, do you feel tourism should play an important role in our economy going forward?

I truly believe that Jacksonville could be a major mid market player in the convention business.  The inadequate facilities(and inadequate location), IMO is the major bottleneck in that equation.

[thelakelander]

No thanks.  Keep your sprawl on the westside.  We've been bringing it to the core for 40 years now.  People didn't leave for Wal-Mart, Bowling America and Fuddruckers.  Our urban core's decline is much more complex than that.

Let's focus on this issue for a moment.  What was the reason for the exodus of downtown?

[before you answer, my guesses are:  cost of living, cost of visiting, lack of amenities, perception]

And when you answer that (hopefully without a drawn out link) you can answer me, "Why can't we use the same strategies to bring people back downtown?"

From our studies, it goes something like this.  Downtown's economy was originally based off the connection of rail and maritime related industries.  In short, this connection led to supporting commerce and hotels.

The downfall:

1950s - wharfs/maritime industries removed from waterfront and replaced with parking lots.

1960s - Jax terminal falls into decline, closing for good in 1971 as Amtrak relocates to the Northside.

1970s - DT hotels begin to close as anchors that bought in visitors (rail/maritime) have been relocated.

1980s - DT retail finally free falls after decades of decline after economic generators relocated.

1990s/2000s - DT continues fall despite hundreds of millions spent. Still lacks built in economic generators.

There are other factors in this as well, but the loss of thousands of well paying jobs and complementing services these economic generators bought to downtown appears to be the bull in the china shop.

Solution - forget the subsidizing one trick ponies.  Start investing in things that build long term stability.  Get your economic generators back and many things that come with a sustainable walkable environment will begin to bloom on their own.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

From our studies, it goes something like this.  Downtown's economy was originally based off the connection of rail and maritime related industries.  In short, this connection led to supporting commerce and hotels.

The downfall:

1950s - wharfs/maritime industries removed from waterfront and replaced with parking lots.

Shipyards, Port Terminals - Bring the waterfront back to the forefront.  How can we be the 'River City' if we don't emphasize the river?

1960s - Jax terminal falls into decline, closing for good in 1971 as Amtrak relocates to the Northside.

I love the idea of a multi-model complex where the PO is currently.  One of the better ideas that I've seen on this site.

1970s - DT hotels begin to close as anchors that bought in visitors (rail/maritime) have been relocated.

With the resurgence of the focus on the river, wouldn't they move back downtown.  I know the thought of 'If you build it...', but what about the thought of, 'If it's already here, I might as well....'

1980s - DT retail finally free falls after decades of decline after economic generators relocated.

They followed the masses and the masses have the money.  Guess what?  The masses aren't a big fan of sprawl anymore and they need a reason to come back.  We need to give them that reason.  Your economic generator, while not the same thing your daddy was used to, could be given ample reason to move back to the core.  QOL - f that - we'll give you  a 40th floor view of the entire city for the same price as you can get in any generic tech-mall and we'll throw in a Pollo Tropical at Newnan and Bay St...

1990s/2000s - DT continues fall despite hundreds of millions spent. Still lacks built in economic generators.

If you throw money in a fire, it'll burn.  You need to put wood in the fire and money in the bank.  Everyone knows that wood will burn. They will buy wood when they're cold to warm and they'll buy wood when it's warm out so they won't be cold during the winter.  Spend the money wisely, and you'll still have the wood to burn.  How much did the city spend on round-a-bouts and Andrew Jackson statues?  How much did they spend on a useless park on Laura St.?  How much did they spend on tryihng to keep corps downtown?  In that simple answer, I think you'll find the problem.  
Solution - forget the subsidizing one trick ponies.  Start investing in things that build long term stability.  Get your economic generators back and many things that come with a sustainable walkable environment will begin to bloom on their own.
[/quote]

[ChriswUfGator]

Ok, so Lake, you've provided a list that I agree covers some of the bases on why downtown failed, and Stephen's list filled in most of the rest. So let me ask you a simple question that really is quite dispositive on this issue;

1: Which one of these barriers preventing downtown from being successful would a convention center remove?

(Answer: None)

This is why I cannot understand your position on the convention center, much less your 2 + 2 = 73 argument on how it will somehow revitalize downtown. This isn't a mystery. We know the reasons why downtown failed, and we know that it continues to decline because these same barriers still remain in place. A convention center has nothing to do with the true problems, and you know that as well as I do.

Look at it this way, we have diagnosed that the patient has the flu, and your response is that we should try putting in a knee replacement. Yes, clearly that will fix it. Or take my broken car example again, I know the engine is broken, you know the engine is broken, and we even know exactly what's wrong with the engine. So how could installing a $100mm stereo make any difference when the engine is still broken? Nobody is going to ride in our broken car, no matter how nice the stereo is.

This does nothing to address the factors which continue to cause downtown's decline. Accordingly, it won't revitalize anything. The money would be far better spent on generating actual sustainable private-sector economic activity downtown, and on removing the artificial barriers we have placed on commerce downtown, none of which have anything to do with a convention center.

I fail to see why we cannot put the rail terminal back downtown without first having to throw a multimillion-dollar handout to the same clowns who wrecked the place to begin with, especially when it's as clear as day to everyone, including you, that it wouldn't do a thing to fix the root causes behind the still-ongoing decline of downtown. You and Stephen just posted pretty comprehensive lists stating the causes of the decline, and "lack of a convention center" wasn't on even your own list. Nor does it do anytning to address the factors behind the decline.

[dougskiles]

We all seem to agree that the best use of the Jacksonville Terminal is for transportation - and that keeping the convention center only adds to the challenge of creating a sensible multi-modal center.  So then the question becomes, where do we provide convention space?  I remember reading that the City of Jacksonville is planning to relocate the fairgrounds to the Cecil Commerce Center area.  For a little refresher of what was discussed in Metro Jacksonville:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-moving-fairgrounds-to-cecil-field-a-bad-idea

Regardless of what happens with that, we can't forget about the availability of space that exists at the fairgrounds currently.  It is not quite what the Prime Osborn has, and is not as conveniently configured, but it could also be better utilized and I'm sure would pick up the slack from some of the events that would not be able to use the Prime Osborn any longer.

http://www.jacksonvillefair.com/expo/facility.php

[thelakelander]

Chris, the funny thing is after all of these pages of going back and forth, I never said that a convention center WOULD revitalize downtown or that it failing as a reason for downtown's decline.  What I did say in my argument about making connectivity and clustering complementing uses within a compact setting (my main point) is that a convention center COULD be a PART of a plan to create synergy with existing complementing uses around the courthouse site.  I've repeatedly stated that its not the highest priority on my list of things to do but that given our current state and landscape, public/private partnership of having it relocated should be explored.

Doug, if we're going to relocate we have to deal with the exhibition hall size limitation and connectivity issue for better utilization out of the events we do have.  The fairgrounds poses the same negative issues that come with the larger Prime Osborn site.

All in all, Matt Carlucci made this statement in the Mullaney 34-point thread about the skyway situation.  I believe it applies to several other problems we face downtown as well, including the thought about completely getting out of the convention industry and making the limitations and lack of proper event utilization on the impact of adjacent businesses we have now worse.

Recently I visited Charlotte a city that Jacksonville should take notes from. I met with one of their downtown planners and the exec director of their tourist development group. They all love our skyway but say the problem is we must connect it to our surrounding areas. It is not that it doesn't go anywhere, it just needs a farther reach. Interestingly enough the downtown planner said that although they hear very little about Jacksonville in competitive business circles he would do anything for Charlotte to have our river, historic district possibilities and retail spaces we have. He also said our people mover should be stretched down to the stadium as well as surrounding areas. While I was there I rode their rail system. It is a tremendous asset to the development of their downtown or as they call it their uptown district. The property taxes generated from this district is huge and those dollars are responsible for enhancing their education system and other quality of life factors. I say all this to say that we can not retreat our way to prosperity. Audrey Moran is the one candidate who understands this and has the courage to move our city forward. The no new tax crowd will hold us back. Just my opinion.  

[ChriswUfGator]

Well, I'm certainly not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, I was just going based on the front page of MetroJacksonville, which you'll note is presently carrying a headline article written by you and entitled "Five Steps to Revive Downtown Jacksonville." Now, when one reads this article, they will immediately note that one of the 5 main bullet-points is "Build a Riverfront Convention Center."

This entire debate has really flowed forth from that assertion in that article, both explicit and implied, that building a convention center would do anything to revitalize downtown, despite having nothing to do with the factors behind downtown's ongoing decline. Isn't it somewhat counterproductive to prescribe a solution that we know doesn't address the problem? I've never heard of a knee replacement surgery fixing an inner ear problem, have you?

I am not understanding why this money would not be better spent addressing the actual problems downtown, which have nothing to do with a convention center. I think your strongest argument is that freeing up the terminal building for relocating passenger rail back downtown. But then it dawned on me that your article and position have seemingly excluded the option of reopening the rail terminal without being required to build an expensive new convention center somewhere else, which is in reality probably our best option.

If the real concern is that the very same clown circus (Pappas, Diamond, Haskell, etc.) that originally blew up downtown Jacksonville by demanding a neverending series of nest-feathering boondoggles is not going to go along with the rail project unless we sacrifice another several hundred million taxpayers dollars to another boondoggle that's designed, built, and profited upon by them, then we really should take steps to address that problem separately in a logical way.

[thelakelander]

Chris, read the full section about the CC including the text under the images again. I'm not in front of a computer right now but I believe it focuses on the connectivity and clustering of complementing uses in a compact setting issue I've been preaching for years on this site. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ChriswUfGator]

Lake, come on, you're completely ignoring the lessons you wrote about in your article in the Urban Issues section;

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-downtown-revitalization-a-broken-record

Let's review some of the quotes from your other article, and see if anything sounds eerily familiar...

The convention center is expected to spawn a hotel, perhaps a couple of hotels, restaurants and related development near the now-deserted banks of McCoys Creek.

FTU Downtown: Development plans will expand the city core to several new areas 3/26/83

Hmm, why does that say 1983 on it? Must be a mistake, I thought this was 2011? Oh, and here's a real gem;

Downtown is headed for a "complete turnaround."  Projects like the convention center and the Jacksonville Landing would bring more people to the area and that would bring back the big-name merchants.  In the next two to five years you're going to see downtown just absolutely explode.

Larry Hazouri - Downtown Merchant's Associates President 10/2/86

Wow, I guess downtown did completely explode. In the literal sense. Now we have a lot of great vacant lots.

But, really, let's all read and understand the lessons inherent in those 20 year-old quotes. Fact is, they clearly understood the concepts of clustering complementing uses around the center, but that didn't actually work out did it? Why? Because there is never going to be enough convention business here to stimulate any real development, regardless of how nice our convention center is, until we have enough urban vibrancy to attract visitors. Which, at this point, would take a decade even if we went in TODAY and remedied the items we agree have caused the decline of downtown. Until then, the building is the least of our problems. Nobody wants to hang out in a dead former city with nothing to do.

This building is a waste of money. All of the things being promised now are the very same things that were all promised 20 years ago. And then again 20 years before that. They never materialize. It's easy to say the issue with the Prime Osborn is that it is located in a desolate/deserted area of downtown, but that's 20/20 hindsight, as the area only became that way AFTER the current convention center located there. At the time, it was a fully developed commercial / light industrial area.

Despite the alleged miracle tonic of the convention center, the surrounding areas all eventually failed and/or were demolished for asinine policy reasons or plans for other asinine pies-in-the-sky. It is now surrounded by nothing but vacant lots.

So doesn't it strike you, reading those quotes, that all the same tired old bullshit is being regurgitated again?

[Garden guy]

Hey Chris...welcome to the republican ran city of jacksonville fl...just like republicans everywhere...just kick the can down the street and let someone else deal with the problems in front of them...like a bunch of birds with their heads in the sand...this city has the possibilities of greatness yet the conservative population and leadership will halt that form happening for many years to come...sorry the truth sucks does'nt it?

[thelakelander]

Lake, come on, you're completely ignoring the lessons you wrote about in your article in the Urban Issues section;

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jan-downtown-revitalization-a-broken-record

Let's review some of the quotes from your other article, and see if anything sounds eerily familiar...

The convention center is expected to spawn a hotel, perhaps a couple of hotels, restaurants and related development near the now-deserted banks of McCoys Creek.

FTU Downtown: Development plans will expand the city core to several new areas 3/26/83

Hmm, why does that say 1983 on it? Must be a mistake, I thought this was 2011? Oh, and here's a real gem;

Downtown is headed for a "complete turnaround."  Projects like the convention center and the Jacksonville Landing would bring more people to the area and that would bring back the big-name merchants.  In the next two to five years you're going to see downtown just absolutely explode.

Larry Hazouri - Downtown Merchant's Associates President 10/2/86

Wow, I guess downtown did completely explode. In the literal sense. Now we have a lot of great vacant lots.

But, really, let's all read and understand the lessons inherent in those 20 year-old quotes. Fact is, they clearly understood the concepts of clustering complementing uses around the center, but that didn't actually work out did it? Why? Because there is never going to be enough convention business here to stimulate any real development, regardless of how nice our convention center is, until we have enough urban vibrancy to attract visitors. Which, at this point, would take a decade even if we went in TODAY and remedied the items we agree have caused the decline of downtown. Until then, the building is the least of our problems. Nobody wants to hang out in a dead former city with nothing to do.

This building is a waste of money. All of the things being promised now are the very same things that were all promised 20 years ago. And then again 20 years before that. They never materialize. It's easy to say the issue with the Prime Osborn is that it is located in a desolate/deserted area of downtown, but that's 20/20 hindsight, as the area only became that way AFTER the current convention center located there. At the time, it was a fully developed commercial / light industrial area.

Despite the alleged miracle tonic of the convention center, the surrounding areas all eventually failed and/or were demolished for asinine policy reasons or plans for other asinine pies-in-the-sky. It is now surrounded by nothing but vacant lots.

So doesn't it strike you, reading those quotes, that all the same tired old bullshit is being regurgitated again?

I would really recommend that the next time you look into a historical study of events in Jacksonville, also look at the location of where things took place.  Take advantage of the old city directories, sanborn maps and newspaper clippings from the vertical files of the library's special collections department.  We can expose a ton of different issues, events and conclusions to those events but one thing centrally relates to all of them.  No matter how you spin it, downtown flourished because it was a compact pedestrian friendly zone where a number of organic uses feed off of each other.  This connectivity, not the transportation, maritime, convention center, retail, stadiums, aquariums, green space, affordable housing, etc. concepts is the central theme that every individual use must play its role in the ultimate creation of a vibrant urban district.  

Now take a look at the quotes you copied and ask yourself if any attempt to connect these projects with surrounding complementing uses at a pedestrian level scale was considered and implemented.  So moving forward, try to attempt to keep the concept of connectivity as a main design priority for whatever is pushed within the urban environment.  Now, I'll go back and reply in more detail to your earlier comment this morning.

[tufsu1]

Not that I'm a big fan of Walmart, but the numbers are going to similarly outweigh the impact of a convention center with all large retail stores, if you don't like Walmart then let's focus on a Target or a Publix or something. A $20mm private investment has ten times the impact of this silly boondoggle.

but generally things like Publix and WalMart don't create new economic activity in a region...since convention centers bring people in from outside the area, they do!

That's assuming the convention center attracts some big out-of-town conventions, which considering all the competitive disadvantages we face in that business, is extremely unlikely. The likely outcome is that this boondoggle is going to attract the same smallish local and regional events that we get now, nothing more. The building is not why we aren't cornering the market from Vegas and Orlando, tufsu, the building is really about the least of our problems.

you are so very wrong....as has been noted here many times, we get a decent # of visitors to this town (football games for example)....most leave with a favorable impression.

btw...I also saw the comment way back in the thread about Charlotte making major downtown improvements 10 years before building a convention center in 1995....that is simply not true....in fact, the opening of the convention center was one of the key catalysts for the improvement.

I don't think anybody on here is suggesting we build a convention center tomorrow....heck, we couldn't start until the courthouse buildings are vacated anyway....but we should begin the planning for it now, so we can do a real cost-benefit analysis.

[ChriswUfGator]

Not that I'm a big fan of Walmart, but the numbers are going to similarly outweigh the impact of a convention center with all large retail stores, if you don't like Walmart then let's focus on a Target or a Publix or something. A $20mm private investment has ten times the impact of this silly boondoggle.

but generally things like Publix and WalMart don't create new economic activity in a region...since convention centers bring people in from outside the area, they do!

That's assuming the convention center attracts some big out-of-town conventions, which considering all the competitive disadvantages we face in that business, is extremely unlikely. The likely outcome is that this boondoggle is going to attract the same smallish local and regional events that we get now, nothing more. The building is not why we aren't cornering the market from Vegas and Orlando, tufsu, the building is really about the least of our problems.

you are so very wrong....as has been noted here many times, we get a decent # of visitors to this town (football games for example)....most leave with a favorable impression.

btw...I also saw the comment way back in the thread about Charlotte making major downtown improvements 10 years before building a convention center in 1995....that is simply not true....in fact, the opening of the convention center was one of the key catalysts for the improvement.

I don't think anybody on here is suggesting we build a convention center tomorrow....heck, we couldn't start until the courthouse buildings are vacated anyway....but we should begin the planning for it now, so we can do a real cost-benefit analysis.

Tufsu, you sound like a broken record from the Times-Union articles I linked in 1983, regurgitating the same tired old promises about how convention centers are better than fairy dust for stimulating economic development and maybe curing cancer too. Did you read the 25 year-old quotes I posted in this thread, making the same claims about the prior convention center boondoggles that you're making now? How'd that work out?