Five Drastic Steps To Revive Downtown Jacksonville

[tufsu1]

Not that I'm a big fan of Walmart, but the numbers are going to similarly outweigh the impact of a convention center with all large retail stores, if you don't like Walmart then let's focus on a Target or a Publix or something. A $20mm private investment has ten times the impact of this silly boondoggle.

but generally things like Publix and WalMart don't create new economic activity in a region...since convention centers bring people in from outside the area, they do!

[thelakelander]

Lake, yeah, the courthouse was $400mm and that was after they CUT THE BUDGET. $36.5mm for a seawall and a chainlink fence at the shipyards. I mean, come on, really? The same clowns are going to be doing the same things with this building, you're delusional if you think it'll turn out any differently.

I know you don't have an architectural educational background so I'm going to give you a pass on this one.  The courthouse and an exhibition hall are two different building types.  Comparing the two is like comparing the cost of developing a medical center with one of Sleiman's strip malls.  If you're paying $400mm for less than 200,000sf you're getting raped with no lube.

Lol, yeah, and how about $36mm for a cement seawall and a chainlink fence at the shipyards?

My point wasn't that these things SHOULD cost this much, only that they always do. It's Jacksonville.

Let's at least be realistic about how this is going to go. We can't build a doghouse for $100mm here...

But it's a nice state-of-the-art seawall.  Seriously though, if we want to talk about dirty politics and changing that culture that can be a different topic altogether, imo.  However, much larger centers can and have been constructed with budgets well under the $400mm figure.

[fieldafm]

Not that I'm a big fan of Walmart, but the numbers are going to similarly outweigh the impact of a convention center with all large retail stores, if you don't like Walmart then let's focus on a Target or a Publix or something. A $20mm private investment has ten times the impact of this silly boondoggle.

but generally things like Publix and WalMart don't create new economic activity in a region...since convention centers bring people in from outside the area, they do!

The generally accepted number is about a 3 to 1 dollar impact of convention centers... not quite what rail does, but still a decent investment.

[thelakelander]

Ted Pappas, Haskell, Diamond, etc., are incidentally the same ones who completely destroyed downtown and are now the same ones still around and pushing for this convention center as the latest disastrous pie-in-the-sky. It's been 40 years, haven't you had enough?

Yes.  That's why I've been preaching connectivity and clustering within a compact setting.  Those are the elements that have been missing from the DT discussion over the last 40 years.  We've been promoting suburbanizing downtown instead of building up its urban fabric.

[ChriswUfGator]

Not that I'm a big fan of Walmart, but the numbers are going to similarly outweigh the impact of a convention center with all large retail stores, if you don't like Walmart then let's focus on a Target or a Publix or something. A $20mm private investment has ten times the impact of this silly boondoggle.

but generally things like Publix and WalMart don't create new economic activity in a region...since convention centers bring people in from outside the area, they do!

That's assuming the convention center attracts some big out-of-town conventions, which considering all the competitive disadvantages we face in that business, is extremely unlikely. The likely outcome is that this boondoggle is going to attract the same smallish local and regional events that we get now, nothing more. The building is not why we aren't cornering the market from Vegas and Orlando, tufsu, the building is really about the least of our problems.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

...Although, that's not saying a ton of different uses can't do the exact same thing.

Then what's the push for another convention center, if the Hyatt has the capacity to host smaller events?  BTW, no one has mentioned the goings on that happen at the Morocco Shriner's Center.  They host/hose several widely publicized, in local media, events each year.  Why doesn't the POC get any opportunity for these?

IMO, I don't think we need to push for a convention center.  If you want the core to grow, you need to be pushing for something that most of the people in J'ville suburbs can relate to:  (you said it, not me)  Super Target, Wal Mart, Cost Co, Best Buy, et.....   If you can give someone from the SS a novelty to go visit (read a store that's downtown that's now cool because it's not the store all the other p & N's go to), then they'll realize that there is more than Best Buy - there's actually some other place to go, then that'll generate buzz, then that'll generate foot traffic, then that will bring more business where you want it, then you can build your GD convention center.

Why do you think that the RCMP was successful?  Layout - NO!  Walkabilty - NO!  Magic Fairy Dust-Nuggets - NO! (quoting SD whenever he can't think of anything else) Location - NO!  Walmart and Gander Moutain -DING DING!  People flocked because it was something they knew and then they ventured around.

[fieldafm]

Ted Pappas, Haskell, Diamond, etc., are incidentally the same ones who completely destroyed downtown and are now the same ones still around and pushing for this convention center as the latest disastrous pie-in-the-sky.

With all due respect, in your research of the convention center history in Jax... did you not come across the competing(and ultimately correct) camp of Haskell and the downtown merchants that advocated for a centrally located convention center that better utilized the hotels and retail fronts downtown?  

[ChriswUfGator]

Well, yes, Haskell was originally right about a central location he pushed for the convention center downtown, although it had nothing to do with wise urban planning and everything to do with the fact that he'd bought the hotel next to where he thought it was going to go, because he thought he had an inside track on the deal. The best stock trade I ever made was SIRI in at 8 cents and out at 80. That doesn't make me a satellite radio visionary. I just wanted to make a buck on the deal.

There was no need, and is no need, for a convention center at all. Haskell was trying to feather his nest.

[thelakelander]

...Although, that's not saying a ton of different uses can't do the exact same thing.

Then what's the push for another convention center, if the Hyatt has the capacity to host smaller events?  BTW, no one has mentioned the goings on that happen at the Morocco Shriner's Center.  They host/hose several widely publicized, in local media, events each year.  Why doesn't the POC get any opportunity for these?

You probably missed this one (its a few pages back), but if we want a compact transportation center we need to get the convention center out of the building the transportation center needs to be in.  If there is a desire to keep the existing convention events in downtown....in downtown, then we need to talk possible relocation.  If we want to call it quits, then so be it.  

IMO, I don't think we need to push for a convention center.  If you want the core to grow, you need to be pushing for something that most of the people in J'ville suburbs can relate to:  (you said it, not me)  Super Target, Wal Mart, Cost Co, Best Buy, et.....

If you want the core to grow you need to reestablish the connectivity between the various urban neighborhoods and bring the economic anchors (transportation/maritime) that established DT back on some level.  It needs to be a self sustaining community.  

If you can give someone from the SS a novelty to go visit (read a store that's downtown that's now cool because it's not the store all the other p & N's go to), then they'll realize that there is more than Best Buy - there's actually some other place to go, then that'll generate buzz, then that'll generate foot traffic, then that will bring more business where you want it, then you can build your GD convention center.

Forget about the guy on the Southside.  Trying to make DT attractive to suburbanites instead focusing around self sustaining economic generators is one of the issues that has kept DT in decline for so long.

[Clem1029]

Alright, another  question here...are there good examples of major cities either a) having a functional convention business without a center/exhibition hall or b) abandoning an existing insufficient convention center to hotel/private market solutions?

[thelakelander]

I asked that a couple of weeks ago and don't believe an answer was ever given.  I'm still interested in this as well.

[ChriswUfGator]

Lke, I TOTALLY agree with you about the need to bring the transit center back down there. I've said a million times that successful urban environments are like a 3-legged stool, it's the combination of commercial, residential, and transportation that supports density, and we knocked two of the three legs out and spent 50 years being consternated as to why the stool fell over. The transit center would restore one sorely needed leg, and restoring the demolished and vacant affoedable residential areas would restore another. What leg does a convention center restore?

There has to be a way to get this done without wasting a ton of money on another silly boondoggle.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

You probably missed this one (its a few pages back), but if we want a compact transportation center we need to get the convention center out of the building the transportation center needs to be in.  If there is a desire to keep the existing convention events in downtown....in downtown, then we need to talk possible relocation.  If we want to call it quits, then so be it.

I'm saying call it quits.  There are other facilities availble, let them do what they do.  If the locals are going to come back, it's not going to be because of a convention center.  Bring J'ville back to the core and let the rest take care of itself.

If you want the core to grow you need to reestablish the connectivity between the various urban neighborhoods and bring the economic anchors (transportation/maritime) that established DT back on some level.  It needs to be a self sustaining community.

Semi-true.  You need to bring the sprawl back to the core.  They left for a reason, and you need to give them a reason to come back, whether it's Wal-Mart, Cineplex, Bowling America, Fuddruckers , etc....  They will come back to visit for the same reasons they left to begin with - lack of [insert blank]

Forget about the guy on the Southside.  Trying to make DT attractive to suburbanites instead focusing around self sustaining economic generators is one of the issues that has kept DT in decline for so long.

It's one in the same.  The suburbanites left to pursue cheap houses and Targets.  We have the opportunity to bring them back with the same bait.

[thelakelander]

The convention center part just places a use with already have within an environment where we can breed synergy with complementing existing uses.  This should be evaluated as a mixed use facility and funded through public private partnerships.  This could help establish a stronger commercial base within the core of DT.

If we can get JTA to rid themselves of their office building wet dream, maybe they can turn their attention to actually designing a compact transportation system with the first phase being bringing Amtrak back downtown.  Land use regulations have already been modified and we should get some money out of the mobility fee and other sources to fund initial transit lines extending to adjacent neighborhoods.  If the impact of rail that our peer cities have enjoyed, happen here, the market will take care of the residential issue.

[fieldafm]

They did so in large part b/c of the location of the convention center at the Jax Terminal.  The writing was on the wall.  They weren't dumb.  The Sears store downtown was one of the most successful in the country up until the mid 70's.  You don't shut down a cash cow and move it to Regency unless you correctly recognize a disturbing trend.

The downtown merchants put their chips all in when the dealer decided to deal the opposing players pocket Aces.  All thats left to do at that point is go to a different casino where the game was more fair.

Incidentally, it was RAP who won that battle, not just Bucky Clarkson.

On several occcassions, I have tipped my hat to the preservationist movement at the time.  My uncle has pictures from the parties they put on to save the terminal.  I've been bugging him to scan them so I can post them up.

Steve Wilson was the main beneficiary of the current convention center(you wouldn't be suprised by who was squarely in his camp).  Wilson also was the person who essentially spearheaded Rouse's interest in The Landing... and that is admirable to mention.

but..

Haskell was trying to feather his nest.

Two major investors were potentially poised to increase their wealth(someone always benefits financially from a large public works project no matter what city you live in)... the difference was the input of the people in the business of doing business downtown were ignored and b/c of that the wrong person increased their wealth.  I don't have a problem with someone benefitting financially... this isn't a Communist society where the government owns all the property and means of production, private property and private contractors are going to be involved.