An Empty Feeling: Inside The Walls Of Downtown

[timothyj67]

These are all great Ideas!! Its just the city council is deaf!
One thing thats needs to be abolished is the stupid liquor license raffle..Its soo stuupid! Get rid of that, make it easier for restaurants bars and so on to come downtown to do business..And get the damn First baptist out of the city council..Alot of those vacant buildings could be great condos and apartments..Build at street level first do shops and such, give a small business tax break and make it more safe and reliable you will then have a great downtown..Its frickin simple..But the people who run the show are deaf !

[Noone]

Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.

Sure, downtown needs more people.  However, the reality is that its not going to get them anytime soon.  Thus, the focus in regards to residential, should be connectivity between it and the densely populated residential districts adjacent to it.  Instead of worrying about how to subsidize and attract 10,000 residents in the Northbank, spend less money by better utilizing the +100,000 that already live within a 3 mile radius (or so) around it.

So what needs to happen next?
Lake, With all due respect the connectivity by using the 680' Downtown Public Pier wll achieve the connectivity that you want.

Can you come up with a city that uses the water and not the land for the connectivity?

Again if you use containers and the Fred Kent power of 10 you will create that dense cluster.
Bring back the floating dock of Super Bowl XXXIX
The containers are donated.
Sportsmans container- sell fresh crabs. Fish, bait
                             -shuffleboard, checker and chess boards. etc.
Arts container- Rotate with RAM
Exercise container- Tie in with YMCA and other gyms downtown
Food container-
District 7 container
Music container
Pet container
Pick an idea for another.
We are a Port City.

[thelakelander]

Jax just needs more people in it. Not enough people there.

Sure, downtown needs more people.  However, the reality is that its not going to get them anytime soon.  Thus, the focus in regards to residential, should be connectivity between it and the densely populated residential districts adjacent to it.  Instead of worrying about how to subsidize and attract 10,000 residents in the Northbank, spend less money by better utilizing the +100,000 that already live within a 3 mile radius (or so) around it.

So what needs to happen next?
Lake, With all due respect the connectivity by using the 680' Downtown Public Pier wll achieve the connectivity that you want.

While the public pier would be a great project, it will not achieve the connectivity and vibrancy people want for downtown, due to the location.  It can be a great space in and of itself but connectivity is also driven by the uses surrounding it.  Unfortunately, in the case of the Shipyards, the uses surrounding it (Berkman skeleton, county jail and Maxwell House plant) kill pedestrian level synergy, walkability and urban connectivity.  For example, when people say they want a vibrant walkable downtown, this is the type of scene they envision:







Not only would you have direct access to the river and green space, that scene would also be clustered with residential, dining, entertainment, office and an assortment of other uses basically right on top of each other.  Water aside, take a look at the aerials of downtown Indianapolis and Jacksonville below. 

Indianapolis


Jacksonville


Pedestrian scale connectivity at the heart with building/mixed use density and clustering is why downtown Indianapolis looks like this at street level.




Being the exact opposite (sprawled out urban uses) is why downtown Jacksonville looks like this at street level.

Can you come up with a city that uses the water and not the land for the connectivity?

No, not in America.  However, I'm not sure its a good idea to ignore land.  The overall goal should be able to have ultimate connectivity with both.  Something as simple as opening the Landing to visually connect the river with Laura Street would be an example of pulling land and water together within a compact urban setting in where the public space (the central courtyard) would have both an inner/outer square and opportunity to reach out with its surroundings like an octopus. 

7. The Inner Square & the Outer Square

Visionary park planner Frederick Law Olmsted's idea of the "inner park" and the "outer park" is just as relevant today as it was over 100 years ago. The streets and sidewalks around a square greatly affect its accessibility and use, as do the buildings that surround it. Imagine a square fronted on each side by 15-foot blank walls -- that is the worst-case scenario for the outer square. Then imagine that same square situated next to a public library: the library doors open right onto the square; people sit outside and read on the steps; maybe the children's reading room has an outdoor space right on the square, or even a bookstore and cafe. An active, welcoming outer square is essential to the well-being of the inner square.

8. Reaching Out Like an Octopus

Just as important as the edge of a square is the way that streets, sidewalks and ground floors of adjacent buildings lead into it. Like the tentacles of an octopus extending into the surrounding neighborhood, the influence of a good square (such as Union Square in New York) starts at least a block away. Vehicles slow down, walking becomes more enjoyable, and pedestrian traffic increases. Elements within the square are visible from a distance, and the ground floor activity of buildings entices pedestrians to move toward the square.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-dec-ten-principles-for-creating-successful-squares

Again if you use containers and the Fred Kent power of 10 you will create that dense cluster.
Bring back the floating dock of Super Bowl XXXIX
The containers are donated.
Sportsmans container- sell fresh crabs. Fish, bait
                             -shuffleboard, checker and chess boards. etc.
Arts container- Rotate with RAM
Exercise container- Tie in with YMCA and other gyms downtown
Food container-
District 7 container
Music container
Pet container
Pick an idea for another.
We are a Port City.

These things would make the pier a great place in and of itself.  However, in terms of downtown walkability, synergy and vibrancy, whats located directly adjacent to a space (in this case, the pier) is just as important as what goes into the space itself.  When talking about urban walkability and pedestrian scale interaction, if true vibrancy is to occur, this concept will have to be applied to all uses.

[Noone]

Lake, Your killing me. lol

I was Downtown for the Navy weekend. Took some pics. Need to get them posted. But the point is I'm standing next to Berkman and there are just boat after boat after boat going straight through Downtown to get a spot to watch the Blue Angels from the water.

Capture this market. The pier can help achieve that.

Its a single. Not a home run.

I think this is one of the biggest city council and mayoral campaign issues for the spring election.

Who is going to MAKE IT HAPPEN?

[thelakelander]

I was on the riverfront as well and took a couple of images myself. I walked the riverwalk from Liberty to Hogan. The highest concentration of activity took place between the Hyatt and the Landing. That's a part of the core area I described above. If you can capture water based activity within your dense cluster of mixed land uses, you'll hit a triple or inside the parker instead of a single.  With that said, I'm not saying the pier is not important or that it should not be done. I'm a huge fan.

[Garden guy]

This sounds aweful but if find the hyper conservative ideas that run rampid in this cities history. I see that not until that changes will the city's downtown change.  The church that runs this area is actually it's downfall. I go to other minor cities and wish our downtown was like them...we dont even match a small town downtown...seeing this and then looking at the amount spent on the courthouse is rediculous...unless the republicans somehow come to see the light of day this is not going to stop and we'll continue to be the laughing stock of the united states...they know us in england as close minded and lost...i could'nt believe i hear that in a pub in london..lol..how embarrassing.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

while i'm all kinds ov keen to blame things on republicans, not all ov downtown's problems are as directly or simply political as all that.

i agree with you about the church, though.  people have been talking about how they provide so many services that would otherwise be lacking, but they provide those services for people in the church.  i'm not saying paid members only, but certainly only for people who are interested in putting up with their dogmatic nonsense.  those services don't do anyöne who, because ov religion or a basic sense ov ethics, won't set foot in the church.  their highly-touted private security, for instance, is just that:  private.  it really only serves to further isolate them, and it kind ov makes our downtown look like something out ov a gibson novel, where the rich and elite pay for protection and the rest ov us are hosed.

[Ocklawaha]

I love the exclusive mind-set of the "Blame The Church" crowd... Fact is that one church brings more people downtown then probably anything else on a regular day to day basis. That we haven't figured out how to capitalize on this says a lot more about "us," then it does about "them." If we could have a dozen FIRST BAPTIST CHURCHES downtown, well... can you imagine the volume of people? The Christian commercialism of giant chain book, clothing, music, health food and other stores would be incredible.

Ah ha! but that hasn't happened. Why? Because we "the city" and it's population have not seen fit to even attempt to revive downtown, in part, on the success of this churches crowds. Take that Laura Street project all the way up to STATE STREET, and develop storefronts... Oop's I almost forgot, the new annex and other sundry buildings no longer have any.

Does anyone really think a weekly meeting of 10,000 Hell's Angel's or Paleontologist's for that matter would be any different if the business community continues to stagnate?

OCKLAWAHA

[fsujax]

paying members of the church? where do you guys get this stuff from? it is almost laughable.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

I have never.  not even once, had to deal with the church obstructing anything.

ov course not, love.  you're a member.  i never said it actually had anything to do with religion or baptist morality.  it's all an old boys club.  you're either in it, or you're not.

three cheers for the south.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Thank you, Stephen, for standing up to some of the rather silly stereotypes that are popping up in this thread.

All of us, regardless of faith or political orientation, should work together on how churches (particularly FBC due to its behemoth size and position as a potential barrier if not integrated into downtown) and downtown can be better integrated just as Ocklawaha mentioned.  Something that brings that many people downtown can be a great asset to downtown with the proper outreach and coordination.  Especially as the pastor sounds like he's willing and enthusiastic about being part of a downtown renaissance.

There are people of every political and belief background on this board who are equally passionate about core revival and equally willing to work toward the same goals.  Random broad-brush stereotypes get us nowhere.  They encourage a focus on the differences in our respective backgrounds and beliefs and distract from our common-sense shared visions for the city.  And no one fits that easily into one box.

[Wacca Pilatka]

This sounds aweful but if find the hyper conservative ideas that run rampid in this cities history. I see that not until that changes will the city's downtown change.  The church that runs this area is actually it's downfall. I go to other minor cities and wish our downtown was like them...we dont even match a small town downtown...seeing this and then looking at the amount spent on the courthouse is rediculous...unless the republicans somehow come to see the light of day this is not going to stop and we'll continue to be the laughing stock of the united states...they know us in england as close minded and lost...i could'nt believe i hear that in a pub in london..lol..how embarrassing.

With you 100% on the courthouse and some of the rather silly ideas from this administration, but please don't assume Republicans and conservatives are automatically opposed to good urban planning and downtown revitalization.  There are plenty on this board, and a good number in Jacksonville's political history and present, who "get it"--e.g., Delaney, Bailey, and Moran.  The Peyton administration does not typify what every conservative or Republican who loves Jacksonville thinks.

[Bativac]

I've never heard any concrete examples of First Baptist standing in the way of any kind of downtown progress. It seems like their members would welcome an influx of cafes or bookstores or whatever, and I'd imagine they would love an easier way (ie transit) to get to church.

I really think a huge problem with downtown Jax is the apathy of most of Jacksonville's citizens. From living here my whole life and talking to other lifelong residents, they either don't care about downtown or are convinced it is a hotbed of criminal activity.

Yeah, you need strong leadership, but you also need the population at large to care about downtown. There are a few of us who would love to see something happen downtown, and there are a few on the other side who are of the "DOWNTOWN JAX IS DEAD!!! TEAR IT ALL DOWN!!!" (those are usually T-U posters). Then there are what I think is the majority of people in Jax, who don't care one way or the other but who don't want their tax dollars spent someplace where they don't think it'll do any good. I think it crosses both liberal and conservative lines, young and old.

I know after about a year of trying to successfully sell things at events downtown and trying to get people excited, my business partner and I kind of just gave up. He'll be leaving town in the next year and my wife and I may not be too far behind.

[videojon]

Correct. It's laughable to blame FBC in any way on lack of Jacksonville downtown development. They've been downtown since 1800's

[pwhitford]

thelakelander
Yesterday at 10:03:38 AM
Hmmmm......Are you trying to say the MBTA knows something that JTA doesn't?

I think it should be: JTA doesn't know anything MBTA does.