Convention Center: City is not ready for new facility

[thelakelander]

By Special to the Times-Union

With Jacksonville's current mind-set, I think it is preposterous that a new convention center is even being considered.

What would be the draw for convention planners to select Jacksonville?

I compare The Jacksonville Landing to a Hollywood movie set: substance out front, with nothing happening at all behind this facade.

There is next to nothing to do downtown, and what may be of interest is spread out many blocks apart.

As an example, it is a bit of a walk from the Landing to the Jacksonville Museum of Contemporary Art.

And, MOCA's current hours of operation may not be suitable for conventiongoers to enjoy during the week.

Recently, a few night spots have opened on Bay Street.

I hope their revenue flow allows them to stay in business. I doubt a few nightspots would be a major draw for the traveling masses we hope to draw downtown.

Downtown Jacksonville seriously lacks anything approaching adult entertainment within an easy walk from a convention center or a hotel.

I'm not inferring strip clubs, but various venues that adults (the majority of those who attend conventions are adults) can comfortably enjoy within easy walking distance from their hotel or a convention center.

Interestingly enough, a night spot cannot serve adult beverages within a certain number of feet from a house of worship.

Yet, during our money-losing Super Bowl event, someone touted "a line of site" rule, enabling adult beverages to be sold and consumed wherever, as long as that activity cannot be witnessed from a house of worship. How convenient!

What a slap in the face for a merchant who would like to have an entertainment business downtown, but cannot do so.

Businesses pay property taxes; houses of worship and other nonprofit groups do not.

What does the typical convention attendee do in Jacksonville?

I would imagine after scoping the Landing out (a few hours at best), most head to the Beaches or to St. Augustine, along with their dollars.

Current laws, mind-sets and what have you preclude the need for a new convention center.

Unless this changes, it may be best for us to consider renaming Jacksonville back to Cowford.

ROBERT KIRK

Jacksonville

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/100507/opl_205325362.shtml

[Ocklawaha]

I tend to agree with him that there is very little in Jacksonville to "WOW" the convention crowd, ditto the tourism crowd, the casual traveler, business traveler, or local family. However, I don't think this should prevent us from building a new convention center. Perhaps with some future vision, the City could wake up to its own greatness, and provide some entertainment venues to rival the competition. We will never arrive at this point by going somewhere else, studying their toys and running home to build a copy. Having Old Hickory on his horse is sweet, but why is it a carbon copy? Having a building plan like Biscayne Blvd is great, but why was it a carbon copy? Having an aquarium was Jake's cool idea, based on Tampa, St. Pete and Baltimore. Fake potato-chip-truck-thinks-it's-a-trolley, the Landing that was imported from Boston and Baltimore, the river-walk that looks like Milwaukee, or Boston or, or, or, or. It begs the question, has this City ever had an original idea? Perhaps.

Oriental Gardens, of course we closed it.
The Skyway, but we never finished it, allowed it to fail, then become an international embarrassment.
Heritage Trolleys, Wow, we would have been first, had we not spent 25 years figuring out stupid reasons why it might not work.
Downtown cruise port, we blocked it. 
Dixieland, that long ago Worlds Fair like park that was way ahead of its time, then allowed hail damage to kill it forever.

Say, I've got an idea! Let's build a Zoo, Museum, and an Airport. Oh Damn, Independence, Kansas already have them.

Ocklawaha

[Jason]

Has everyone in this town gone cynical?

A convention center is only one peice of the puzzle.  Yeah, we're not Orlando but there is plenty to do that could keep the average conventioneer busy for 2 or three days.

[thelakelander]

I agree Jason.  The Landing, MOSH, MOCAJax, the riverwalk, the zoo, beaches, Five Points, San Marco Square, etc. are more than enough to keep the average conventioneer busy for 2 or 3 days.  Do we really believe that there is less to do here than in places like Raleigh, Shreveport and Louisville?  What's in a mega tourist market like Orlando or Las Vegas should not even be in the discussion, considering right now, we can't even offer what second and third tier places like Birmingham and Omaha are trying to expand and improve. 

We don't need something as complicated as attracting a theme park near the airport to successfully pull this off, all we need is vision, creativity and common sense.

[big ben]

from what i remember from working at a hotel across the street from st. louis' convention center, convention attendees liked being able to not have to use their car.  there were at least 4 hotels within a block of their convention center, laclede's landing (night life/dining/casino area, not just a complex) a couple of blocks away, busch stadium is a long walk and an underground light rail station about a block away.  i could see how moving the convention center could help.  it seems like walking from the closest hotel to the convention center would be a long walk, but i've only been down that street a couple of times. 

it doesn't help that the skyway was never finished.  if you could hop on that and go to a free zoo, that would be a great addition.

[thelakelander]

Connectivity and density leads you back to the city's county courthouse or Sleiman's east lot sites.

1. Hyatt Hotel/Omni/Riverwatch sites are within walking distance.
2. The Landing is within walking distance.
3. The Bay Street Town Center and Florida Theater are within walking distance.
4. The Riverwalk is within walking distance.
5. The Crowne Plaza and Wyndam Hotels are only a short water taxi ride away.
6. Renovating the Prime Osborn costs nearly just as much as building a new building.

Skyway or not, we have several things already in place that would be attractive for the convention business and its guests.  A design of a new mixed use convention center can add even more.  I think we have a decent alternative location, now its time to get creative to come up with financing solutions to fund such a center.  Something in the public/private partnership arena seems to be the way to go considering several of the entities already in place (ex. Hyatt, Landing, water taxi, Southbank Hotels, etc.) stand to benefit greatly if a convention center was constructed at the courth house or Landing's east lot sites.

[big ben]

is the omni the closest hotel?  i'd consider that walking distance and, obviously, you would too, but it probably doesn't seem that way to convention attendees.  it might also seem to convention organizers that it's even less within walking distance because it feels like there's quite a bit of nothing in between.  there are quite a few open surface parking lots where hotels could be built right next to the current site, but it's probably unlikely that any would be built there, considering the current usage of the convention center. 

i think the Landing's east lot sites would be better than the courthouse, if there's enough room.  are you referring to the parking lots on the other side of the bridges?  it would probably create a need for a new parking structure somewhere, but i think that would be a great spot with a hotel next door and the landing directly on the other side.  especially if you could straighten out that main street bridge exit mess, but that would probably add a lot to the costs.  maybe they could even tie in the east end of the landing that doesn't seem to be able to keep stores very well.  i'm not sure how easy that would be, with the overpass and all.  maybe just a covered walkway. 

[thelakelander]

is the omni the closest hotel?  i'd consider that walking distance and, obviously, you would too, but it probably doesn't seem that way to convention attendees.  it might also seem to convention organizers that it's even less within walking distance because it feels like there's quite a bit of nothing in between.  there are quite a few open surface parking lots where hotels could be built right next to the current site, but it's probably unlikely that any would be built there, considering the current usage of the convention center.

The Omni is eight blocks from the Prime Osborn.  Thos eight blocks are either parking lots or parking garages.  You won't find many urbanist willing to walk that far in the sun with nothing of interest in between.

i think the Landing's east lot sites would be better than the courthouse, if there's enough room.  are you referring to the parking lots on the other side of the bridges?  it would probably create a need for a new parking structure somewhere, but i think that would be a great spot with a hotel next door and the landing directly on the other side.  especially if you could straighten out that main street bridge exit mess, but that would probably add a lot to the costs.  maybe they could even tie in the east end of the landing that doesn't seem to be able to keep stores very well.  i'm not sure how easy that would be, with the overpass and all.  maybe just a covered walkway.

Yes, I know Sleiman has considered that lot for a potential convention center site.  For that lot to work, the older portion of the Hyatt Hotel (west of Newnan) would have to be demolished.  That would give you two blocks for a vertical oriented convention center, in addition to the 100,000 square feet of meeting space already located at the Hyatt.  It would be more expensive than building a horizontal center in a cow pasture, but the support infrastructure like the hotel, bars, clubs, entertainment, local museums, etc. would already be in place and within walking distance of the center.

[big ben]

Yes, I know Sleiman has considered that lot for a potential convention center site.  For that lot to work, the older portion of the Hyatt Hotel (west of Newnan) would have to be demolished.  That would give you two blocks for a vertical oriented convention center, in addition to the 100,000 square feet of meeting space already located at the Hyatt.  It would be more expensive than building a horizontal center in a cow pasture, but the support infrastructure like the hotel, bars, clubs, entertainment, local museums, etc. would already be in place and within walking distance of the center.

i think that could work, then.  they could even have a private/public partnership to build a convention center with a hotel towering on top of it and parking somewhere in the middle.  do you think there could be any type of money savings by building one foundation instead of a convention center next to a hotel, or would the extra height and weight offset the costs too much?

[thelakelander]

Material wise, it would cost more to build vertical, then to spread it out.  However, you would save on land costs, especially if its a centralized riverfront site, like the Landing's East lot or the County Courthouse parking lot.  Then you would also have to factor in the amount of time and money it would take to build adjacent support infrastructure like a convention center hotel, restaurants, bars, retail and museums. 

At the Prime Osborn, while land is free, you have to put a price on bringing in the necessary support infrastructure.  Can dowtown support another Hyatt sized luxury hotel?  Would the public have to give tax incentives for it and restaurants to locate in LaVilla? In the East lot's/County courthouse's case, that additional infrastructure is already in place. 

[Jason]

Here is what a convention center could look like on the East Lot...

I worked this up some time ago.















The benefits with this lot are:

- Fronts riverwalk and becomes enhancement of the skyline
- Could be an extension of the Landing
- Directly adjacent major hotel and entertainment complex
- Private involvement would be necessary (Sleiman and Hyatt owners have been rumored to have been in
  discussions of possibilities).
- Public/Government involvement could be eliminated or at least ruduced limiting the potential for more of the
  city's red tape.
- Small lot forces vertical construction
- Removes more riverfront surface parking lots



Negatives

- Small lot forces vertical construction (more costly) but could be offset by the land cost savings as Lakelander stated)
- Further from the Bay Street Town Center and other cultural attractions
- No transit link

[big ben]

i was gonna say something about the skyway needing extended to the sports district to take care of that, but i don't wanna get too far off subject.

i like this idea.  i could nit-pick about my preferences for the design, but that'd be silly, since it's not official.  i'd kinda like to see one of the taller parts closer to the end of the main street bridge, so you can get more of a feel of a large building quicker when crossing the river.

what were the other possible sites they had come up with?  i can't seem to find the article.

[thelakelander]

Off the top of my head...

The existing County Courthouse site
The Shipyards
JEA's property on the Southbank
The Fairgrounds
Jax Municipal Stadium's parking lots

[reednavy]

This city really sucks when it comes to trying to move up in the world. I just came back from Phoenix on vacation, and their building a light rail downtown thru midtown and beyond, its just taking forever. You;d be hard pressed to find anything over 70 yrs of age there, and they got their shat together. Phoenix is the definition of sprawl and they have more stuff to do, wtf?!

[Jason]

i was gonna say something about the skyway needing extended to the sports district to take care of that, but i don't wanna get too far off subject.

i like this idea.  i could nit-pick about my preferences for the design, but that'd be silly, since it's not official.  i'd kinda like to see one of the taller parts closer to the end of the main street bridge, so you can get more of a feel of a large building quicker when crossing the river.

what were the other possible sites they had come up with?  i can't seem to find the article.

I spent about an hour or so throwing that together with parts from another rendering I put together for the courthouse site.  I also did the same for another rendering for the Prime Osborne site.