Trouble in Downtown?

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

noöne's fauilting jerry for buying miss maggie a refrigerator--it's the most awesome thing he's done all year, and admittedly it's more awesome than any single thing i've done this year, too.

...but there's this little nagging voice that says 'man, i wish i could afford that kind ov quick image repair--one refrigerator later, everyöne wants to ignore who he is the other 364 days ov the year; now he's the golden man than none may slight with impunity'.

[RiversideLoki]

This is totally off topic, but are you using a non-US keyboard? Because you replace your "F"s with "V"s and have accent marks over your "O"s and your posts are really hard to read.

[simms3]

OK to change the topic a little...didn't we use to frequently comment on how many surface lots there were and how many garages there were downtown?  I don't personally work downtown, but my father always has, my uncle always has, and just about everyone I know works downtown.  I have never heard anyone complain about the parking whether it is the lack thereof or the prices (and the last couple days I asked around to be sure).  I think larger companies leaving downtown because of a "parking issue" or building managers (might I add just the manager of the Life of the South building) screaming the same thing are probably making excuses.

There is no less concentration of parking in the immediate core, the Southbank, or around downtown than any other city, and our prices are very competitive if not better (though our garages tend to be crappier).

I agree there is a public perception that it is hard for the average "downtown visitor" to find parking, but I think all it is is perception (and our meter maids are out of control, though the last time I was downtown I did not get ticketed nor did anyone else around me for being late on the meter).  I have been downtown countless times for any variety of reasons at almost any hour of the day and I have never had a problem finding a spot.  The average person who rarely comes downtown may not know how or where to look, but we can make it easier on them by implementing the exact same things we on this board have discussed and other cities have already done.

We don't need to go as far as making curb parking free (I have never seen that in a downtown unless it is off hours or the weekend).  We just need to take up all the coin meters and replace them with more modern equipment.  We need to increase signage not only on the garages, but also on street signs (public parking next left, etc).

We have so many empty garages in the core, not always connected to anything, but nonetheless empty that parking is definitely not an issue.  And once more people start coming downtown more often, the perception will fade and people will be used to being able to find a spot.  Modis has a garage, BofA has a garage, AT&T has a garage, Wachovia has a garage, Riverplace Tower has a gargae, Aetna has a garage, every building I can think of has a garage.  There is definitely not a lack of parking downtown.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Simms its not a problem for the residents and the small office professionals. 

The problem is the amount of money it costs for the out of neighborhood visitors and customers.

I hate jumping in, but with two large corporations leaving downtown recently, I think they're making it out as a problem for a lot more than just visitors and customers.  Or they're using it as a scapegoat. 

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Before I go any further, I'm gleening all of this from what I've read in this thread - there's no actual fact checking involved.

2 major corps have moved to the southside, both claiming parking issues - not saying exactly what those issues were, but we have to assume it's the cost and not the availability.  Some (I'm sure I'll be corrected here) garages are subsidized by the city to turn an 8% profit.  By losing these 2 companies, the city will have to fork over even more taxpayer money to help these garages.  There was no apparent resolution between the city and these corps to come to terms with - just parking. 

Based on these facts, there seems to be a lot more going on behind closed doors than just a parking issue.  Because it would seem that the city could have cut it's 'parking' losses and justified it with the taxes they would receive yearly.

What say you?

[simms3]

Scapegoat.  Sure the suburbs are cheaper.  Downtown office locations are supposed to be an advantage and benefit to certain companies, but in downtown Jax they really aren't benefiting anymore.  The only people that work downtown are workers from Ortega, Avondale, Riverside, San Marco, and government workers and AT&T workers.  For the rest of the population (the majority of the professional working population) Southpoint, Gate, the Beaches, Flagler, and Baymeadows are closer and offer the same thing downtown does at less cost.

As we keep saying downtown is suffering from poor leadership, not parking, and companies are just using parking as a scapegoat.  As someone in another thread somewhere (maybe not MetroJax) said in Charlotte you aren't anyone if you aren't downtown, from a corporate perspective.  Charlotte is a very corporate city, though, not unlike how Jacksonville was in the 1980s/early 1990s.  Jacksonville now has a more services/industry/call center type job focus that doesn't require a large presence downtown, so downtown is hugely suffering from vacancies and poor leadership and the remaining companies with employees from the southside are fleeing.

Forteza was in a good building (for Jacksonville standards) in a good location and they had parking.  I know for a fact they had parking.  There are any number of reasons they are packing up for the Southside beside parking.  Could be the executives live closer to Deerwood, could be the majority of employees live near Deerwood, could be inside financial problems (I doubt that until I find out for sure whether their lease will be significantly less at Deerwood), could be anything.  They have been there forever.  They are not packing up now because of a parking issue when parking has not increased in price (at least significantly) and when there is more available parking, particularly for that area due to vacancies.  This is just common sense.

As for downtown visitors, Stephen if you read my above post I agree it is not as easy and convenient as it could and should be, but it is not the absolute end of the world.  For the businesses downtown that offer a necessity for people or a service that people really really want (like all of our new bars/clubs on Bay, Chamblins, La Cena, RCBC, the top floor restaurant in BofA, and a few others come to mind) they are doing fine with the parking situation we currently have.  Nobody is denying it could and should be better, though.  If the area's only Best Buy were downtown, people would find parking to get to it.  I have found it more difficult to park at a mall many times before than to park in our downtown.

[simms3]

The subsidized garages are not the garages that would affect any companies at Modis or the Life of the South building.  Modis has an underground garage and 2 large parking garages with lots of empty spaces in them 1 block away (1 is catty corner).  Life of the South has a large large lot next door and another garage only a block away, as well as 2 large garages only 1.5-2 blocks away.  Parking in Jax is also fairly cheap.  If employees/employers "all of a sudden" can't afford our parking rates, then we are definitely plummeting into the poor house.

[simms3]

Parking enforcement as visitors witness firsthand does not affect office employees who have spots in garages, some spots even assigned.  Parking enforcement only affects those who either park in a visitor garage and lose their ticket/can't pay or those who park at the meters and either don't pay or the time runs out.  Parking enforcement isn't enforcing employees who have a monthly contract, until they forget to pay their monthly bill.  In that case parking enforcement is right to try to collect.  They don't necessarily have to be nazis about the meters, though (and I think they have actually let up considerably since we put the pressure on them).  There is a balance, if parking on the curb were free and there were no time limits, the curb spots would be taken up by office workers trying to avoid the monthly garage fees.

I have also made it a strong point to distinguish the large office companies from the small businesses.  Please don't tangle my words.  As far as 5 Points and San Marco are concerned, they are commercial strips with chains and small businesses.  I am only referencing larger companies that require physical office space.  I know plenty of executives downtown and I know a few business owners.  That is not necessarily relevant to any of my points.

I am not talking about a conspiracy.  I never believe in conspiracies and this is no "collusion" to screw downtown, it is just a snowball that is rolling down a mountain and building.  I am making some very "educated" assumptions based on what I have heard first hand and I think what I am saying is quite logical once you put 2 and 2 together.

[simms3]

The reason we charge for parking is because most of our garages are built by private companies (I believe) and garages, no matter how ugly and plain they are, are fairly expensive.  The usual amount of time for a developer to make money back on a garage is anywhere from 10-20 years depending on if they charge for the spots and how filled up the garage is.  If a developer builds a building with an attached garage (say below ground or below the usable space but above ground) then they can more easily make their money back on that construction cost in other ways (slightly higher lease rates, higher condo prices or apartment rental prices, etc).  BofA and Modis charge high rates for their attached garages because there are not that many spaces in those garages and a higher concentration of high net worth executives who are more than willing to pay premium for interior garage spaces.

The bottom line is that garages charge because some must in order to service that construction loan and/or to turn a profit (it IS a business, too) and some garages charge simply because they can.  Would you build or run a garage for free?

[simms3]

Of course we want the businesses to succeed and believe it or not parking companies are businesses too.  Also, parking was not an issue just 5 years ago or 15-30 years ago when downtown was booming.  Parking has only improved since then yet just now companies are citing it as a problem.  That does not add up my friend.

[simms3]

Yea Stephen duh there is not enough demand for the supply, but they can't just make all garages free and take losses.  Now the garage business is probably one of the most competitive tricky businesses in town because they are losing their demand and their is a glut of supply.  They obviously have to figure out a way to make money, I couldn't begin to claim to know how to run a garage business, but I don't know any business that can survive by charging absolutely nothing for a product or service.  There was a restaurant that tried to set a voluntary price where customers paid only what they thought the food they were getting was worth, but they didn't "have to" pay.  Well that restaurant folded pretty dang quickly but not after it applied for SBA loans.

[simms3]

You just pointed out that the garages are more of a problem for the taxpayer than the companies located downtown.  I agree.  Now can we agree that any company currently downtown in one of our office buildings who moves and cites "parking issues" as the reason is probably just making an excuse.  I don't know Mark Rimmer, but that policy is not one I would endorse by any means.  Sure there are probably some really bad contracts with the parking guys and some corruption going on, but Metropolitan Parking Solutions probably did not originally envision the courthouse not being ready until 2011.  Meanwhile its garage has sat there since the mid 2000s.  MPS has probably screwed us over in many ways, but I think the city screwed us over in that instance.

[simms3]

There is demand for the central core garages where the employees are (less now than there used to be but still there).  We are subsidizing the courthouse garage which doesn't even service the AT&T building since they have another garage located NE of that building and we are subsidizing 2 more garages (I think sports complex and/or Kings Ave).  MPS does not operate any of the attached parking garages that are always full because of demand or all of the interior lots and garages that service the buildings.

I don't think supply and demand situations downtown are spread evenly (I know they are not) and I don't think they apply to the parking problem.  Downtown is supposed to not only be central to a community's workers thereby being the most convenient workplace for the majority of the population, it is supposed to enhance the business that goes on by making everything closer together.  If you have a meeting with one company it may be on another floor in your building or just a couple blocks away.  Time is spent more productively because there is more collaboration, less time driving for lunch and for meetings, and the overall atmosphere is supposed to be conducive to work.  Another huge huge huge supposed benefit of a downtown is exposure and advertising.  Having a trophy tower in a signature skyline can end up being your company logo (think Transamerica).  It sends signals to other companies and makes it easier for people to find your offices.

That all being said, downtown is no longer central to the majority of the NE FL population.  There is no overwhelming force to keep downtown as the center of town.  Once a few companies left for reasons of convenience to employees/executives, it started a chain effect that is continuing today.  Southpoint/Deerwood/Gate Parkway now offers an environment equally as good as downtown and for similar if not less costs.  Companies are close to each other and the workforce there, and now there are restaurants and shops and entertainment all nearby, thus making a more active environment than downtown separated only by the fact that one has to drive everywhere there.

Companies can realize huge benefits by being downtown, which is why office buildings usually can charge higher rents (though parts of the Southside and the beaches became more expensive in jax) and parking is not a problem.  Unfortunately these benefits are now virtually the same on the southside and with huge vacancies out there property managers are lowering rents there significantly and convenience to the workforce is the icing on the cake.

To bring downtown back, we need to concentrate growth more equally on all sides of downtown and in the core to make it more centralized and we need to make the downtown environment a better place to do business once again.  The parking is basically there already and now we have the streetscape project, we just need to provide better incentives and/or loosen regulations on all new developments within 3 miles of downtown to encourage more centralized growth.

[cline]

Which companies left for convenience?  To which employees and employers are you referring?

What was the convenience that they sought?

Concrete examples please?

It is no secret that many employees of companies in Jacksonville live on the southside, the beach, or in northwest St. Johns County.  Downtown is no longer the geographic center of population that it once was.  You could make an argument that the Southside is now.  Perhaps some companies leaving downtown (or even companies moving to Jax) are more inclined to be within proximity to their employees, for better or for worse.

[simms3]

Stephen, I think we all know companies that left downtown over the past 20 years.  Now you just sound like you are picking on me.  It is common fact that downtown has become less and less the central hub of the local workforce while the JTB corridor has become it.  I think you questioning me for saying so is ridiculous.  All new companies to town skip right over downtown now, too.  I think that's a common fact, too.

I also specified the convenience of being centrally located (which is not downtown for most companies/people anymore).  Now the JTB corridor also means convenience to all of Jacksonville's good shopping, dining, and much of the entertainment.  That is also part and parcel of centrally located.  It's a snowballing chicken before the egg/egg before the chicken effect that we so commonly talk about here on MetroJax.  Need I explain?  We just need to bring that snowballing effect back downtown.  Parking is not the big problem.