Are JTA's Downtown Amtrak Plans Already Outdated?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1000697971_mg8Cz-L.jpg)
In the past, it has been mentioned that the rail facilities at the proposed Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center were extremely inadequate. After reviewing JTA correspondence, Metro Jacksonville's beliefs have been verified.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-sep-are-jtas-downtown-amtrak-plans-already-outdated
Gentlemen.............when is JTA going to stop and do things half assed? Not only is the track situation inadequate but there appears to me to be ............no room to expand if needed! They have designed a bottle neck into the track equation! JTA needs this gold plated ediface, like I need another eye in the middle of chest! Talk about a waste, Amtrak will not supply a letter saying this is the one and JTA wonders why? Here we go again! Bovines...........plain and simple!
Is there a plan anywhere showing tracks with the convention center addition
removed?
I have an idea....Let's just take down the Lee St viaduct. that would solve a lot of operational issues! Ock...where you at?
Ugh! This gets me aggravated. Maybe Amtrak can do a little better than JTA?
JTA will not build any new track without Amtrak's approval. That is about as simple as it gets!
I'm watching from over on track 8...
OCKLAWAHA
The architecture is outdated indeed as well
Just do it right JTA. That starts with worming your way back into Jacksonville Terminal (sadly known as the Prime Osborn Convention Center). Demand the tracks instead of trying to make do with less than you deserve. We need to make highest and best use of our facilities and for Jacksonville Terminal that is as our transportation center.
Quote from: fsujax on September 23, 2010, 08:08:01 AM
I have an idea....Let's just take down the Lee St viaduct. that would solve a lot of operational issues! Ock...where you at?
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/JaxTerminalThroat.jpg)
If it's going to work, It's bigger then three tracks boys and girls...
...and YES this is JACKSONVILLE TERMINALS "throat"
My opinion on this is that "God and Henry M. Flagler," gave us 3 natural corridors over the railways and McCoys Creek. Riverside Avenue is our primary auto corridor with very heavy traffic and fairly steep approaches with ample clearance over the rail lines. Further, Riverside is already blessed with a Skyway right-of-way between the Times-Union and Forest Street. If JTA is on the ball they might even move the old fire station across the street to serve as part of a future bus-streetcar-Skyway station.
Lee Street while wide open and certainly a gateway to Park Street is lightly traveled and could easily be converted into a couple of traffic lanes and a couple of bus-only lanes making it the unobstructed bus gateway to Riverside and LaVilla or the new JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL COMPLEX. Lee is a natural for BRT and we needn't muddy the waters by duplication (as in the southbank BRT-Skyway fiasco) of modes where we would be competing with ourselves.
Myrtle is the historic streetcar route and while flood prone today, the floor is slightly above the river level making it fixable. The original Myrtle Street Subways floor was concave and a couple of feet below the track center line for drainage. Considering the urban development power that has blossomed all around the nations new-old streetcar lines, I would go right back to Myrtle with the car line jogging from Forest-Myrtle-Bay.
Can you imagine the development that would explode in Brooklyn with Skyway on Riverside, BRT on Park and Streetcar on Myrtle? This route also loads us up for a future line down Myrtle and the restored Durkeeville neighborhood.
Per our articles, the station could then start to change the rail facility into the gateway to Florida that it has always been. Doesn't matter one bit if Amtrak approves or not on anything but the 3-4 tracks they plan to use as once we toss a REAL station track layout at them we are going to get an instant response of new thought. Those goofy trains from Los Angeles to Orlando are suddenly going to be Jacksonville-Los Angles operations, Atlanta, High-Speed rail and every other northeast corridor extension plan will HAVE TO TAKE NOTICE due to sheer economics. The other benefit is of course having all the room we desire for commuter rail, be it a single train each morning and evening or dozens.
More good news? Maybe. Part of the old coach yards with some 6-8 tracks is currently occupied by Conrad Yelvington Cement. It still has all of the switches, some of the signals, and a direct lead into the west end of the station tracks.
Hows that FSUJAX? Hopefully we will now get on to constructive discussion. I know you and I spoke about this one day while watching trains and seem to remember you saying we should write this stuff down.
OCKLAWAHA
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJt11hCczdI/AAAAAAAAC_w/LuW5WNyh_As/s800/jacksonville%20terminal%20track%20plan%202010AA.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TJuKwPsz-3I/AAAAAAAADAU/i_q8Q2kFpPM/s800/JAX%20TERML%20FDOT%202.jpg)
Here is the "official" plan from the same viewpoint... ENJOY!
Here you go kids... OCK'S SOLUTION...
In this plan the station hosts 8 tracks and 3 (top of the plan - south side of station) are through tracks to the FEC - narrowing to two at the bridge.)
OCKLAWAHA
Your plan makes more sense to me Ock! It takes into account what comes in, has a chance to go out instead of taking a number and creating a train block from hell! Plus it incorporates what is already there even if it is not used today! There is always tomorrow and expansion should be an option!
Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on September 23, 2010, 04:19:16 AM
Are JTA's Downtown Amtrak Plans Already Outdated?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1000697971_mg8Cz-L.jpg)
In the past, it has been mentioned that the rail facilities at the proposed Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center were extremely inadequate. After reviewing JTA correspondence, Metro Jacksonville's beliefs have been verified.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-sep-are-jtas-downtown-amtrak-plans-already-outdated (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-sep-are-jtas-downtown-amtrak-plans-already-outdated)
You gotta be kidding! They are actually going to waste more money building a new facility right next to the old one, only to wind up with fewer tracks? Genuis! Why buy one thing when you can get half as much for twice the price. Makes sense to me...
Well chris we are discussing JTA and the City all in the same breath here!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 23, 2010, 03:46:40 PM
You gotta be kidding! They are actually going to waste more money building a new facility right next to the old one, only to wind up with fewer tracks? Genuis! Why buy one thing when you can get half as much for twice the price. Makes sense to me...
ROFLMAO Chris, that was pretty funny. This DOES bring to mind one of my major problems with the whole JTA plan, Why the hell build a new 1/2 of a train station for Amtrak right alongside one that has stood the test of time since 1912. Los Angeles didn't rearrange Union Station for Amtrak and Metrolink. Seattle didn't rearrange King Street Station because they just got the Sounders to go with Amtrak's Cascades. Stuff like this only happened in Nashville and similar towns where the old stations had been closed down, rebuilt, sold to Hilton, etc... We just don't need to:
1. Change the station and/or location and/or layout at all.
2. Add to an already underused edifice.
Not to mention that the "new" plan doesn't have a damn thing in it for lease space. No Hertz, no Avis, no Enterprise, No coffee shoppe, No Union Station Gift shop...have these guys forgotten that this is DOWNTOWN and can attract a crowd with quality services?
BTW, the candy down in bump-out kiosk two down on the concourse and the ham and eggs in the restaurant used to be the best in town.
OCKLAWAHA
Just as a note....the plans shown were done for FDOT, not JTA....and DMJM Harris has since merged with (or gobbled up by) AECOM
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 23, 2010, 05:05:22 PM
Just as a note....the plans shown were done for FDOT, not JTA....and DMJM Harris has since merged with (or gobbled up by) AECOM
Either way it's the State of Florida fumbling the works again when it comes to rail. TU I just don't think they understand rail at all, hence trains to airports rather then downtown's, "train hubs", trains where there are no tracks, and my favorite, trains from Miami-Orlando-Gainesville- LAKE CITY! Really if this is the best the consultants can come up with they need to be fired and we need a chunk of money back. As you know, there are very few true railroad planners out there, most wear other hats 90% of the time. Everything they have done thus far needs recense...OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 23, 2010, 05:34:20 PM
Either way it's the State of Florida fumbling the works again when it comes to rail. TU I just don't think they understand rail at all, hence trains to airports rather then downtown's, "train hubs", trains where there are no tracks, and my favorite, trains from Miami-Orlando-Gainesville- LAKE CITY! Really if this is the best the consultants can come up with they need to be fired and we need a chunk of money back. As you know, there are very few true railroad planners out there, most wear other hats 90% of the time.
Too true Ock! This so-called plan shows it! Don't even get me started about HSR in Ratville!
We agree CS!
(http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01122004d.jpg)
In this photo from front to back are:
double slip switch
2 switches standard
a double cross-over
1 switch standard
BTW, the tiny red circles on my track plan represent single and double slip switches. A normal switch splits a line into two. A slip switch does the same PLUS serves as a cross-over from track to track. The "slip" being left, right, or double so rather then crossing, one can move across and veer in any of two directions, this makes one switch do the work of up to four. But the quiz kids at FDOT's local consultants might not even know that.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock..........I take exception to the "quiz kid" label............if that be the case, they would be smart enough to know what they don't know! "Whiz kid" would indicate they already have all of the answers, which shows with their master plan of horse crud! I think one of my grandkids could do better and she is just learning how to write her name!
As we have noted on previous MJ threads on the intermodal center, the entire facility is poorly designed, both functionally and aesthetically. The plans need to be trashed and some visionary and smarter people need to be brought in to start over. Also, this center needs to be worked out with urban planners, not just head-in-the-book transportation engineering geeks who are clueless about how the world really works.
Jax can not afford to continue its string of downtown failures: Convention center, courthouse, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, Skyway, one-way streets, the Landing, public transit, demolition of historic fabric, LaVilla, empty lots, non-street friendly buildings, ugly and underutilized parking garages, etc. (Wow, that's an awfully long list of failures for just the last 25 years or so!).
sorry...but I don't count some of those as failures....the Hyatt is still doing ok and the Landing was good for the first 10+ years.
http://www.youtube.com/v/ulsQ50IUahU?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
Want to REALLY have some fun? This is Meridian Mississippi and the station facilities in this short clip is MUCH larger then FDOT-JTA plan for Jacksonville! All of this for a single train each way daily.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stjr on September 23, 2010, 07:47:42 PM
Jax can not afford to continue its string of downtown failures: Convention center, courthouse, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, Skyway, one-way streets, the Landing, public transit, demolition of historic fabric, LaVilla, empty lots, non-street friendly buildings, ugly and underutilized parking garages, etc. (Wow, that's an awfully long list of failures for just the last 25 years or so!).
I'll split this one with y'all TU/STJR...
+ POSITIVES
1. Courthouse, is done and looks fine
2. Convention Center, probably saved the Jacksonville Terminal from Atlanta and Birmingham's great stations fate.
3. Hyatt, yeah so it cost but now its private enterprise along with Omni filling a HUGE need in our city.
4. Shipyards, we got it back and frankly couldn't control the market or the bankruptcy of huge developers.
5. Skyway, Heaviest transit route PPMPD (passengers per mile per day = a standard measure in the industry)
6. Landing, TU is right, it WAS very nice when new and can be again as the market turns and we fixed parking.
- NEGATIVES
A. One way streets, but perhaps they were a good idea back when Sears, Furchgott's and Iveys anchored DT.
B. Public Transit, shrinking and fraught with bad ideas like a saprogenous organism.
C. Demolition of historic fabric, a city governed by stupefacient lemmings.
D. LaVilla, illaudable
E. Empty lots, Classic Jacksonville impedimenta
F. Non street-friendly buildings, another impest not unique to Jacksonville
G. Ugly and under utilized parking garages, see all of the above, more improvident actions.
...And the NEGATIVES have it by a "G"
Wow, that was fun!OCKLAWAHA
The Landing is still the place to be for good night dinner on the river front. We should glad we have it along with the Hyatt.
Quote from: stjr on September 23, 2010, 07:47:42 PM
As we have noted on previous MJ threads on the intermodal center, the entire facility is poorly designed, both functionally and aesthetically. The plans need to be trashed and some visionary and smarter people need to be brought in to start over. Also, this center needs to be worked out with urban planners, not just head-in-the-book transportation engineering geeks who are clueless about how the world really works.
The thing that galls me is that Jacksonville is uniquely well-positioned for rail, but we're still blowing it. We could have real functional rail here for pretty much no money, which is unique. All they have to do is cancel the paltry handful of tiny events on the books for our "convention center" and spend a relatively small amount of money to take down the cheesy convention area and reopen the damned rail station.
But for some reason, all these plans always include a bunch of expensive and unnecessary new construction that winds up leaving us with less than what was already there, and inflates the project cost to the point that people will become upset over it and the whole idea may be threatened by the resulting lack of support. I really am starting to believe they're either intentionally trying to kill it, or else they're looking for any excuse to load up on more Gate Precast Concrete.
+1
Nifty Fifty won't change unless they get their cut off of the top! Remember what and how Jacksonville got the Prime Osburn to begin with! Taking down the cheesy convention area would not take much .....I would be willing to "volunteer" to do so, which would save them some more money! chris +2
yay Nifty Fifty!
QuoteRemember what and how Jacksonville got the Prime Osburn to begin with!
While it's true that there were two proposals for where to put the convention center(one being riverfront, which Goldbold has been on record as regretting to this day), and while Herb Peyton et al advocated for the Jax Terminal and Preston Haskell(who owned the Robert Myer/City Center at the time) et al(namely downtown business owners) advocated for the riverfront location... ultimately there was a GROUNDSWELL of community support for the Jax Terminal. Ordinary citizens came out and volunteered to clean up the mess from the Terminal's massive fire and ordinary citizens held events/parties/fundraisers supporting its reconstruction. It was a time where the type of community involvement to save the old Terminal was not seen again until NFL Now sold 10k club seats to revive Jacksonville's NFL expansion hopes 20 years later.
In hindsight, it saved a worthy historic building... but isolated and ultimately hurt the convention business in Jax.
But it wasn't exactly like three men smoked cigars at the River Club and singlehandedly destroyed their fiefdom against the wishes of mere mortals sitting below.
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2010, 05:45:24 PM
But it wasn't exactly like three men smoked cigars at the River Club and singlehandedly destroyed their fiefdom against the wishes of mere mortals sitting below.
Actually from what information I have seen, not 3 but way more than that! Two groups were involved, one in Ortega and one from Riverside and more then likely those you just mentioned! COJ bought the place and I don't believe they used their own money did they? stjr had the poop on that situation and I will try and find it for you and then you can make up your own mind! I can not dispute the "clean up effort" from the community after the fire, but I do take exception for what proved to be a sweetheart deal for a select few and it wasn't Jacksonville!
You're talking about Steve Wilson whose group bought the building to develop(I mean, at least know what you're complaining about).
On the other hand, Wilson was also the same person who convinced Rouse to consider building the Jacksonville Landing.
Was it a big victory that the Union Station site was chosen over the proposed riverfront site? Yes, and it led to the resignation of several members of the now defunct Downtown Development Authority. Goldbold's compromise was only half accomplished(the Skyway would connect the CC with downtown, but an adjacent hotel was never built)
But, to simply explain away the current convention center site to a few rich dudes controlling the puppet strings is downright wrong... there was a tremendous amount of community support for the restoration of the building.
The type of community involvement that went into supporting the renovation of the old terminal is a VERY rare event in this city.
Community clean up? yup! I am the one that cut off and removed the "10,000 pound" iron fence and gates all along the end of the stub tracks. Talk about heavy... holy shit the thing weighed tons and the torch took some effort to cut through the iron. I also wanted to remove one of the classic flower pots on top of the bumper blocks at the end of the same stub tracks, at least until I realized they were firmly attached and were just a tad smaller then ME!
I got access to the hidden rooms, catacombs, tunnels, crawl spaces and cleaned out half a hundred ticket daters, tickets, date dies, consist ledgers, ticket sales books, maps, and bound records of the building!
I also had one of the scariest experiences in my life in the old temple of railroads past... Having wound up several floors of total darkness through elevated boiler rooms, shelf spaces, and huge empty ??. Finally having ran out of regular stairs I climbed a "fire stairs" sort of thing, into yet a higher room. There was nothing as I recall up in that room but inches of dust and soot, also having twisted up and down through a dark maze, all of my usually excellent sense of direction was shot to hell. There was a tiny door perhaps 2' x 3' feet, and it was jammed with nearly a centuries worth of paint. I kept kicking at it until it looked somewhat loosed at which time I grabbed the handle and put my shoulder to it with all my might. WHAM! It swung wide open and with my butt on the cement floor and my hand on the handle, my torso was magically suspended in the air right below the dome of the ceiling! I swore it was 6 city blocks to that damn floor as I begged God to get me 100% back inside the door. Today on the waiting room side, above the old ticket counters I can find no trace of that God-awful little door to hell, perhaps they closed it in the reconstruction, or perhaps I've done my 30 seconds in Purgatory.
For what it's worth, above that is a fire ladder on the north wall that leads through a hatch into yet another terrorizing space. This time a full size door, approximately directly above the tiny door below, led right out onto a catwalk above the dome. My God that thing was MAYBE 12" inches wide and each sagging plank is suspended on both ends by a trapeze frame attached to the bottom of the roof. ...And no I didn't walk the walk, one trip to Purgatory is enough to last an eternity.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 23, 2010, 08:55:01 PM
sorry...but I don't count some of those as failures....the Hyatt is still doing ok and the Landing was good for the first 10+ years.
Hyatt is in default on its mortgage, even after a $5 million assist from Hyatt Corp. And, that's after Adams Mark had to sell out at a fire sale. I would hardly call that doing "OK".
If the Landing is such a success, why did Rouse dump it at a fire sale? And, why is Sleiman still moaning and groaning about more support for it, such as parking?
In my mind, success is being commercially viable and profitable without government intervention over the long haul. Neither of these projects passes that standard anywhere close.
You may not consider these failures but the taxpayers and investors in these projects obviously would. Tufsu, what is your definition of "non-failure"? That they are still in business, even if on life support?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 24, 2010, 12:02:20 AM
Quote from: stjr on September 23, 2010, 07:47:42 PM
Jax can not afford to continue its string of downtown failures: Convention center, courthouse, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, Skyway, one-way streets, the Landing, public transit, demolition of historic fabric, LaVilla, empty lots, non-street friendly buildings, ugly and underutilized parking garages, etc. (Wow, that's an awfully long list of failures for just the last 25 years or so!).
I'll split this one with y'all TU/STJR...
+ POSITIVES
1. Courthouse, is done and looks fine [Ock, you are entitled to your opinion. I think many would consider its "looks" a failure. My biggest beef is it covers seven city blocks instead of one and kills a huge chunk of downtown for generations. That rates it a bigger failure in my book.]
2. Convention Center, probably saved the Jacksonville Terminal from Atlanta and Birmingham's great stations fate. [Agreed, but it also is a failure for not delivering on the downtown revitalization, tourism, and development that was promised to go with the taxpayer's investment.]
3. Hyatt, yeah so it cost but now its private enterprise along with Omni filling a HUGE need in our city. [See my comments above for Tufsu.]
4. Shipyards, we got it back and frankly couldn't control the market or the bankruptcy of huge developers. [That's one way to look at it. But, after two developers, many years, and millions of dollars, none of the promised development has materialized. That's a failure to me and all those investors.]
5. Skyway, Heaviest transit route PPMPD (passengers per mile per day = a standard measure in the industry) [We won't parse this again. Let's just say almost everyone in Jax considers this a failure by 90+% and hundreds of millions of dollars spent for a few paltry riders. You and friends are clearly the exception.]
6. Landing, TU is right, it WAS very nice when new and can be again as the market turns and we fixed parking. [Again, see my comments to Tufsu.]
- NEGATIVES [No quibbles here.]
A. One way streets, but perhaps they were a good idea back when Sears, Furchgott's and Iveys anchored DT.
B. Public Transit, shrinking and fraught with bad ideas like a saprogenous organism.
C. Demolition of historic fabric, a city governed by stupefacient lemmings.
D. LaVilla, illaudable
E. Empty lots, Classic Jacksonville impedimenta
F. Non street-friendly buildings, another impest not unique to Jacksonville
G. Ugly and under utilized parking garages, see all of the above, more improvident actions.
...And the NEGATIVES have it by a "G"
Wow, that was fun! [Yes, once again, fun and games on the MJ boards. ;) ]
OCKLAWAHA
(http://www.trainweb.org/chris/beech5.JPG)(http://www.trainweb.org/chris/beech4.JPG)
(http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakflorida/Pictures/Amtrak%20Picture%20Page/Large%20Images/Motives/Amtrak%20P-40%20Locomotive%20842-Beech%20Grove%20-%20Chris%20Fussell.jpg)
JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE?
* AMTRAK NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION * JAXPORT RAILROAD * WATCO
* CSX TRANSPORTATION * RAIL LINK * ST. MARYS RAILROAD
* RELIABLE RAIL SERVICES *GENESEE AND WYOMING RAILROAD *TTX
* NORFOLK SOUTHERN RAILROAD * FIRST COAST RAILROAD * FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY
* TALLEYRAND TERMINAL RAILROAD * PROGRESS RAIL SERVICES * RAIL AMERICA
To have allowed Florida's Amtrak "rescue" to shrivel while state after state has added miles and trains is absolutely unacceptable and dead wrong. Why blame us for Florida's failure? Simple, for those that do not understand rail, in Florida, Jacksonville = rail, not just any rail, but geographically controls the entire industry. As Jacksonville goes - so goes rail in Florida. Had we been awake at the throttle rather then burying our problems under tons of cement, Florida's rail network would resemble California's, and we would be the epicenter of activity.
Is anyone from the Chambers Industrial Development or Commerce Development task forces posting here? Where are they when we could be adding not just a station, but hundreds of jobs, maybe even thousands. Do they understand what is a stake here? Realize that for the first time in half a century the railcar and streetcar/light rail industries are posting sales around the globe in the billions of dollars. So what? Anyone recall West Jacksonville Shops of the old Seaboard-SCL-Family lines-CSX? The brake shops in Green Cove Springs? The huge TTX complex downtown? The WATCO rail system car shops on Kings? The Shipyards and metal works from Palatka to Mayport? Here we have a major global industry with a BUY AMERICAN mandate, thousands of foreign players who would love to crack the US Market, and we have one of the largest and most experienced railroad work forces on earth! More? You bet! Amtrak currently operates a tiny haphazard shop they inherited from the original Auto-Train Corp in Sanford, and a large repair shop in Hialeah while Springfield, Honeymoon and West Jax railroad yards sit largely abandoned... DO THE MATH JACKSONVILLE! If Amtrak trains, Commuter trains, streetcars, LRV's, Monorails, all meet downtown at Jacksonville Terminal, how much sense does it make for us to be one of the nations premiere railroad shop relocation sites? Car Builders? Locomotive Builders? Streetcar and LRV builders? Monorail and PRT builders? Bus and Transit Vehicle Builders? How many European, Oriental or American builders would love to have a presence not only within the BUY AMERICAN boarders but also in the land of Sunshine and Mickey and Experience? Talk to me people, need a volunteer to help you recruit and change the face of our City, Transportation and Port? I stand ready to fire this up right NOW.
For Sale: Sunny Shop Location with hundreds of highly specialized and skilled workers. Dozens of former railroad yards, sidings and trackside sites available. NO SNOW. On the Atlantic Coast with beautiful beaches, 2 hours from Walt Disney World and Cape Canaveral. World Port. 4 trunk line railroads and 5 area shortlines or terminal companies with over 60 trains daily. Half way between Atlanta and Miami almost to the mile. Largest Park System in America. Only Eastern Sea Port due south of Cincinnati, Detroit and west of Pittsburgh and Washington DC., only Florida City with a direct mainline to the Pacific Coast. Dozens of experienced machine shops, Sheet Metal, Ship and Fitting manufacturers. Third largest City on the East Coast and largest in land area in the USA assuring you your choice of sites. Professional Sports and International Airport. YOUR HOME ON AMERICAN RAILS - CONTACT XXX JACKSONVILLE DEVELOPMENT.
COME ON JACKSONVILLE! TIME TO PULL YOUR HEAD OUT! OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: fieldafm on September 24, 2010, 05:45:24 PM
QuoteRemember what and how Jacksonville got the Prime Osburn to begin with!
While it's true that there were two proposals for where to put the convention center(one being riverfront, which Goldbold has been on record as regretting to this day), and while Herb Peyton et al advocated for the Jax Terminal and Preston Haskell(who owned the Robert Myer/City Center at the time) et al(namely downtown business owners) advocated for the riverfront location... ultimately there was a GROUNDSWELL of community support for the Jax Terminal. Ordinary citizens came out and volunteered to clean up the mess from the Terminal's massive fire and ordinary citizens held events/parties/fundraisers supporting its reconstruction. It was a time where the type of community involvement to save the old Terminal was not seen again until NFL Now sold 10k club seats to revive Jacksonville's NFL expansion hopes 20 years later.
In hindsight, it saved a worthy historic building... but isolated and ultimately hurt the convention business in Jax.
But it wasn't exactly like three men smoked cigars at the River Club and singlehandedly destroyed their fiefdom against the wishes of mere mortals sitting below.
uhhhhm yeah.
it was.
just exactly like that.
only a lot.
I drive in the surrounds of DT often snapping a few shots of scarcely traveled blocks at what somremay consider an odd hour.
I love this place.
Some of the infill is a wee bit drab.
new city hall and courthouse. not finished - but the rendreings are unfortunately touched with a dumbed down homogeny.
Federal Courthouse mini tower. tres chic.
but...the rural condition of the park and ride lots between TUPAC and the Terminal, coupled with the unused Park View Inn do a lot to wound our eyes.
If we want to see the implementation of any ideas put forth by so many here, we will have to convene upon council chambers as a routine and each fill out our 3 minute speaker cards and quit cyber rallying.
Butts in seats until council has no choice but to get these items on their radar.
Quote from: stjr on September 24, 2010, 10:42:10 PM
If the Landing is such a success, why did Rouse dump it at a fire sale? And, why is Sleiman still moaning and groaning about more support for it, such as parking?
well the main reason is that the Rouse Company wasn't so interested in festival marketplaces after James Rouse left the company....but they had even less incentive to keep some of them after he died.
btw, the Rouse Company no longer exists....was bought/merged with General Properties, who is now in bankruptcy....so, using your thought process, I guess their suburban malls weren't so successful either!
tou che
answer to the question in this thread:
IF incomplete, then YES outdated and obsolete and outmoded.
To much is unknown to much of the public soon to be affected by the "too late to do anything about it" autonomy of the JTA.
Poor planning is not a Jacksonville exclusive.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-metra-upnorth-city-riders-092620100925,0,6435071.story
Chicago's Metra is replacing several 113 year old bridges on the UP North line. They don't support the weight of the new commuter rail engines and are getting hard to maintain.
Poor planning? In 1977, previous owner Chicago & Northwestern had the 3rd rail line removed along the ROW. Metra is not building new bridges that support a restoration of that 3rd rail line. This is one of the more busiest commuter rail lines, some stations see 70 trains daily. (The UP West, IC Electric, BNSF Aurora line all have 3 tracks)
Only 2 rail lines, bridge reconstruction can only mean one thing....only 1 line is available at a time during the construction. Metra changes the schedules and retasks the trains along the route. What happens? Suburban trains fill up and leave no room for the stations between Evanston and downtown.
They change the schedules yet again, yep, you guessed it, now the City of Evanston is up in arms now.
Congestion of having inbound and outbound routes routed through a single track just doesn't work. And it is all because they thought they could "get by" on one track, when 2 were clearly needed.
The outlook towards Jacksonville Terminal, Amtrak, Commuter Rail and such should take the lessons learned from the other more larger cities when it comes to rail planning. Don't shortchange yourself when it comes to properly servicing the needs of the future. Don't be afraid to admit your mistakes and make the necessary changes to do it "right".
can I get a witness?!?
spuwho, I take it you [quite unfortunately for us all] DON'T work for the JTA or the FDOT?
you simply make too much sense.
ricker.............more than happy to witness! Biggest problem with JTA is a lack of planning, vision and some idea on how to fund anything...........from simple bus shelters (short only 1700 plus) to planning ahead just 10 years down the road! BRT is not the panacea that they seem to think it is!
Perhaps we should lay out a floor plan for the original AS-BUILT station and see which one we like the best? As for the old "Negro waiting room" re-brand it as a upscale micro-mall with a whimsical name that also salutes it's heritage... "Ebony Mall" or some such. Any more ideas?
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: spuwho on September 25, 2010, 10:16:20 PM
Poor planning is not a Jacksonville exclusive.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-metra-upnorth-city-riders-092620100925,0,6435071.story
Chicago's Metra is replacing several 113 year old bridges on the UP North line. They don't support the weight of the new commuter rail engines and are getting hard to maintain.
Poor planning? In 1977, previous owner Chicago & Northwestern had the 3rd rail line removed along the ROW. Metra is not building new bridges that support a restoration of that 3rd rail line. This is one of the more busiest commuter rail lines, some stations see 70 trains daily. (The UP West, IC Electric, BNSF Aurora line all have 3 tracks)
Only 2 rail lines, bridge reconstruction can only mean one thing....only 1 line is available at a time during the construction. Metra changes the schedules and retasks the trains along the route. What happens? Suburban trains fill up and leave no room for the stations between Evanston and downtown.
They change the schedules yet again, yep, you guessed it, now the City of Evanston is up in arms now.
Congestion of having inbound and outbound routes routed through a single track just doesn't work. And it is all because they thought they could "get by" on one track, when 2 were clearly needed.
The outlook towards Jacksonville Terminal, Amtrak, Commuter Rail and such should take the lessons learned from the other more larger cities when it comes to rail planning. Don't shortchange yourself when it comes to properly servicing the needs of the future. Don't be afraid to admit your mistakes and make the necessary changes to do it "right".
Hey guess what? Chicago Metra admitted their mistake and are going retask the project next spring.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/09/metra-postpones-bridge-work-trains-resume-normal-schedule.html
A clear example of how to conduct yourself as a public transit agency, accountable and transparent. I give them credit, they admitted it and came clean and did the right thing. A good example to follow in Jacksonville.
Following the conversation on the 'current courthouse' thread about the train station at Prime Osborne lead me to read this thread about the JTA intermodal monster. Does anyone know where JTA is on the design, permitting, construction schedule? Is it too late for a new mayor to have an influence over the direction this thing is taking?
JTA should be pretty far along in design (I wouldn't be suprised if design is already at the 90% level), considering they submitted the project as being "shovel ready." Considering Rick Scott's position with HSR, unless financing is already in place and ground is broken, a new leader could have a strong amount of influence on the direction that it takes.
Good. Well, let's continue to be loud and clear about it with whomever will listen.
As noone likes to say, keep score, be concerned.
as I understand it, some folks at JTA have been fighting tooth-and-nail against doing any redesign of the intermodal center....but take heart, they've been fighting pro-redesign folks at JTA....and I believe some changes (albeit minimal) are now in process.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 16, 2011, 11:51:33 AM
as I understand it, some folks at JTA have been fighting tooth-and-nail against doing any redesign of the intermodal center....but take heart, they've been fighting pro-redesign folks at JTA....and I believe some changes (albeit minimal) are now in process.
Good news - and from what I understand, they may have a design, but no funding lined up for construction. It is a shame that we keep wasting money on design, but better to do that than waste $100 million - particularly when half is for a new JTA office building.
the FDOT 5-year work program once again includes $ for the office building component....which will also contain the Traffic Information Center....JTA will partially fund (as will the TPO) and some tranit upgrades are included
Would the construction of the office building (as currently designed) prevent the remainder of the site from being altered to a more sensible plan?
No. However, we should probably focus on actually improving transit connectivity instead of building an office building first. If new office space is desired, the Northbank is full of empty available buildings. However, what will suck is if we can't get that convention center out of there before anything north of Forsyth Street is constructed.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/744225810_Jk9o3-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/744225864_WsJrk-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-a-closer-look-at-the-transportation-center
Get the convention center out and you'll have the ability to place all modes adjacent to each other. Connectivity and clustering complementing uses in a compact setting makes transit easier to use and creates synergy which spurs additional opportunities for complementing retail and services.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/455453154_Mp93Z-M.jpg)
I have questions about this intermodal transit center, its planning and its construction.
1. Why does JTA need to reinvent the wheel with a lot of new construction that is sprawled out over several blocks? I have been to the Amtrak/bus terminal in St. Louis, Missouri. It is compact and easy to get around.
2. Why can't we phase in this complex - with us moving Amtrak into the terminal building now (And maybe the Greyhound station, too)? I do not see any progress with this project and only hear about the latest news on metrojacksonville. I sometimes feel like we are the only ones who care about this...
Now the need for a new convention center location is becoming clearer to me. I know it is far from ideal in location to hotels, but what is planned for the fairgrounds area once they move it to Cecil? Could it be used temporarily for convention space until a more permanent facility is constructed? Just from looking at the aerial, it appears to have 100,000 sq. ft. of roof. Granted, not all of that is conditioned space. It certainly isn't any less connected than the Prime Osborne.
Quote from: Jaxson on January 17, 2011, 09:59:47 AM
I have questions about this intermodal transit center, its planning and its construction.
1. Why does JTA need to reinvent the wheel with a lot of new construction that is sprawled out over several blocks? I have been to the Amtrak/bus terminal in St. Louis, Missouri. It is compact and easy to get around.
Because no one in power has the balls to address the convention center issue head on.
Quote2. Why can't we phase in this complex - with us moving Amtrak into the terminal building now (And maybe the Greyhound station, too)? I do not see any progress with this project and only hear about the latest news on metrojacksonville. I sometimes feel like we are the only ones who care about this...
We can. It's just not JTA's main priority with this particular project. They want that expensive office building put up first.
Does anyone know why it would not be ideal to purchase or lease one of the Northbank's several empty office buildings instead of constructing a new facility?
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
Does anyone know why it would not be ideal to purchase or lease one of the Northbank's several empty office buildings instead of constructing a new facility?
I think you already answered the question at the top of your post responding to why convention center issue hasn't been addressed head on.
to be fair, its not just JTA....FDOT and the TPO are also partners in the Traffic Management Center/office building....in fact, JTA had been stalling for so long that the TPO and FDOT were about to take their $ and walk.....that got JTA moving
TPO = JTA and FDOT. No difference. TPO is just a rubber stamp/pawn for appearances (witness Tufsu's invocation of their name as if this made the project somehow more creditable.) I know Tufsu will come to their defense but won't convince me otherwise based on reality that TPO never rejects JTA and/or FDOT endorsed projects.
The DOT-FDOT-JTA-TPO relationship? Sir Winston had it right, “riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."
In defense of the JTA-TPO office building on the site as opposed to elsewhere consider that if you built a discount store in Durkeeville, you wouldn't want the regisiters in LaVilla. There is merit in having it all in one building, and if indeed we someday manage to coax a sepperate "transit agency" or "rail authority," from the mix, just use the third office down the hall on the right. This does not mean that they couldn't all be located in the downtown core, can you just imagine the Skyway traffic between the two sites?
TU? Those rail side changes might be a whole lot bigger then you suspect...
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteIn defense of the JTA-TPO office building on the site as opposed to elsewhere consider that if you built a discount store in Durkeeville, you wouldn't want the regisiters in LaVilla.
Not really. A closer comparison would be like saying every CVS distribution center or corporate office needs to be next door to a CVS store, which is simply not true. This is the 21st century now, is there a better reason for spending millions on a new office as opposed to consolidating space within an existing facility a few blocks away?
Take heart my friends. This is what I know. The only part of the JRTC that is anywhere ready for construction is the Transportation Management Center (Phase 1). The design plans are at least 90%. The rest of the facility is not even at 30%. TUFSU1 is right in his account, there are those internally at JTA pushing for a complete redesign of the entire facility. Luckily, the entire rail portion of the JRTC is being revisited and major changes to the original design are taking shape. Most importantly this is due to the major push for relocating Amtrak back Downtown as soon as possible. I know that JTA has been in constant discussion with Amtrak, Rail America/FEC and CSX. Believe me CSX is the key! Hope to have more information soon. I know everyone gets frustrated because things seem to happen so slow, but believe me they are happening, quietly behind the scenes! It would make things alot easier if the City would commit to relocating the convention center.
Quote from: stephendare on January 17, 2011, 11:30:36 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 17, 2011, 11:25:03 AM
to be fair, its not just JTA....FDOT and the TPO are also partners in the Traffic Management Center/office building....in fact, JTA had been stalling for so long that the TPO and FDOT were about to take their $ and walk.....that got JTA moving
That would be shocking to me. To find out that the TPO supports this design.
supporting the JRTC design and funding the Traffic Management Center are not the same thing
Quote from: fsujax on January 17, 2011, 01:17:12 PM
Take heart my friends. This is what I know. The only part of the JRTC that is anywhere ready for construction is the Transportation Management Center (Phase 1). The design plans are at least 90%. The rest of the facility is not even at 30%. TUFSU1 is right in his account, there are those internally at JTA pushing for a complete redesign of the entire facility. Luckily, the entire rail portion of the JRTC is being revisited and major changes to the original design are taking shape. Most importantly this is due to the major push for relocating Amtrak back Downtown as soon as possible. I know that JTA has been in constant discussion with Amtrak, Rail America/FEC and CSX. Believe me CSX is the key! Hope to have more information soon. I know everyone gets frustrated because things seem to happen so slow, but believe me they are happening, quietly behind the scenes! It would make things alot easier if the City would commit to relocating the convention center.
I wonder how soon they mean when they say 'as soon as possible'....
The convention center is so small that we could move it's limited business to the arena, fair, and other venues around downtown until we could get a new one up. Meanwhile we wouldn't miss the train by having the top facility of it's kind in the South over at 1000 West Bay.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 17, 2011, 04:25:49 PM
The convention center is so small that we could move it's limited business to the arena, fair, and other venues around downtown until we could get a new one up. Meanwhile we wouldn't miss the train by having the top facility of it's kind in the South over at 1000 West Bay.
OCKLAWAHA
Excellent point, Ock!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 17, 2011, 04:25:49 PM
The convention center is so small that we could move it's limited business to the arena, fair, and other venues around downtown until we could get a new one up. Meanwhile we wouldn't miss the train by having the top facility of it's kind in the South over at 1000 West Bay.
LOL, just like the good ol' days without the massive expense. With the ballrooms at the Hyatt, Omni, and UNF Conference Center, not to mention the Club and Terrace Suite facilities at the stadium, the Equestrian Center, etc., we probably could pull it off. Heck, I bet some of the mega-churches around town have social halls now rivaling a small convention center. Don't forget the St. Johns County-Radisson Convention Center and the Marriott at Sawgrass.
Quote from: stjr on January 17, 2011, 06:50:24 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 17, 2011, 04:25:49 PM
The convention center is so small that we could move it's limited business to the arena, fair, and other venues around downtown until we could get a new one up. Meanwhile we wouldn't miss the train by having the top facility of it's kind in the South over at 1000 West Bay.
LOL, just like the good ol' days without the massive expense. With the ballrooms at the Hyatt, Omni, and UNF Conference Center, not to mention the Club and Terrace Suite facilities at the stadium, the Equestrian Center, etc., we probably could pull it off. Heck, I bet some of the mega-churches around town have social halls now rivaling a small convention center. Don't forget the St. Johns County-Radisson Convention Center and the Marriott at Sawgrass.
There is no doubt we could pull it off. Who would be against it? Are there any groups who feel that the convention center in it's current location is a benefit? I have yet to hear them - here or anywhere else.
I would like to know if Jacksonville leaders have thought about one advantage that convention meccas like Orlando and San Diego have over our city --- a more vibrant entertainment scene. I have been to conventions in Orlando, Philadelphia, Boston, San Diego, Los Angeles and Kansas City. What impressed me the most about these cities is the way that these cities entertained delegates when we were not busy with convention business. I particularly loved the way that San Diego invited conventioneers to spend the evening there. I do not see the same in a city like ours where many downtown streets are about a welcoming as the back of a hearse. The poorly lit streets, the boarded up businesses, and the overgrown vacant lots aren't helping , either...
This is one of the reasons why the convention center should be relocated. You have an opportunity to create a vibrant scene of uses (convention center, Hyatt, Bay Street, Landing) that would feed off each other. KC did the same thing. They developed a Landing style entertainment center between their convention center, hotels and new arena. Now that little strip stays pretty active around the clock.
btw...what vibrant entertainment scene does Orlando have within walking distance of its convention center?
I seriously doubt that Jacksonville is going to invest the money to build a convention center anytime soon that will have much effect on the downtown scene. So, if the underlying reason for building a new convention center is to get the current one out of the existing location to make room for a more sensible JRTC, then perhaps we should be pushing for the use of existing 'convention' facilities described above instead of pushing for a new convention center.
After the courthouse public relations nightmare, I would be surprised to see a new mayor pushing for another large public building. And even if they did, would they get enough support from the city council and general public?
How about research facilities to promote a biomedical industry (or something along those lines)? I would rather see us spend money attracting talented/creative people to live in Jacksonville - not just visit for the weekend.
I think you have to look at public/private partnerships for a new convention center. For example, I'd be very surprised if Hyatt wouldn't be interested in having an exhibition hall next door.
I know the Hyatt and Omni ballroom/convention spaces are not overly large, but... are they actively marketing for all the right sized conventions they could possibly book? And, are they PUSHING the city to provide and/or promote the development of nearby amenities other than the Landing to fill the free time of their attendees?
I've been to a number of conventions and very low on my list of things to do is wander empty streets or watch the tides swirl by along featureless "riverwalks". I've been to the Landing a few times, too, and I've really seen all I need to see there. I think "stale" is the word I'm looking for. Maybe I'm too old to think the bar scene is still attractive.
I think if I were a convention planner and our group was actively looking for a venue I would vote against a second visit to Jacksonville.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2011, 10:25:19 PM
I think you have to look at public/private partnerships for a new convention center. For example, I'd be very surprised if Hyatt wouldn't be interested in having an exhibition hall next door.
Do you think they would be interested enough to pay for a chunk of it?
Hyatt has first dibs on the courthouse annex site when it becomes available. They're also a convention center hotel and need to find a way to fill those 966 city subsidized hotel rooms. In the past, there have been articles like this where nearby property owners have considered the concept. I doubt a 100% privately funded convention center is feasible but perhaps a public/private partnership with multiple entities could reduce the risks and costs for all?
QuoteDeveloper weighs riverfront convention center
By ALISON TRINIDAD
The Times-Union,
Developer Toney Sleiman is floating the idea of building a riverfront convention center between The Jacksonville Landing and the Hyatt Regency hotel downtown.
"Nothing is committed," Sleiman said. "[But] what a helluva place to put a convention center."
Debate about whether Jacksonville needs more convention space, where it should be built and who would pay for it has percolated among city and business leaders for years. Convention center advocates say the Prime Osborn Convention Center, formerly a railroad terminal, is too small and too far from any hotels to attract as many meetings and conventions as a city of Jacksonville's size should. Conventions bring in large blocks of business-minded visitors who spend money in area hotels, restaurants and stores.
Though the convention center debate largely has taken a secondary role to projects such as the city Sports Complex and county courthouse, it seems to be making inroads.
In July, Mayor John Peyton and the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention and Visitors Bureau agreed to create a task force to study the options for building a larger convention center, whether it be to expand the Prime Osborn or to build a new one. Essentially, the group will conduct a feasibility study. Peyton has said the convention center isn't one of his top priorities, although he has agreed the city needs more convention space.
One option the task force likely will examine is the potential for a privately developed convention center, a model that is becoming increasingly popular across the country.
Sleiman says he is open to all possibilities.
"It'll be whatever the market demands," he said. "If a guy comes in and says he wants a half-million square feet and we need to build to the clouds, then I'm going to the clouds."
Sleiman has met informally with various stakeholders, including representatives of the Hyatt, the CVB and the city.
Phil Tufano, general manager of the Hyatt, said the hotel's owners also are evaluating the possibilities for redevelopment of their property. To make Sleiman's project anywhere near feasible, the hotel's parking garage - which also houses all the hotel's administrative offices, 30 percent of its meeting space and about 70 guest rooms - would have to be demolished.
"We have to address all those issues," Tufano said. "There needs to be a [larger] convention center in the downtown area. Of course, we would like to be the anchor hotel."
John Reyes, president of the CVB, said the bureau's priority is to make the best use of the facilities the city already has. When it comes to the bottom line, any plans for a convention center must include at least 200,000 square feet of contiguous exhibit space (the Prime Osborn has 78,540) and a hotel within walking distance.
"Toney has a vision that works closely with the Hyatt's," Reyes said. "[If they can make it work], it would make perfect business sense."
There are no engineering reports or studies, no architectural renderings as of yet for Sleiman's convention center idea - Sleiman doesn't even own the property that he's proposing to use, although he is in line to buy it.
Sleiman, whose company owns the Landing, said he considered the possibility of a convention center for the city-owned property when he bought the open-air mall in 2003. But outstanding parking issues between the mall and the city delayed any plans from moving forward, Sleiman said.
As soon as those issues with the city were resolved in March, Sleiman said, he began re-examining probable uses for the site, which now is used for parking. Aside from a convention center, the roughly 2-acre lot could house extra parking, with offices or condominiums atop, Sleiman said.
Architect Jack Diamond, a CVB board member who long has lobbied for a larger convention center, said the property between the Hyatt and the Landing is too small to support a center the size the city needs, and it wouldn't allow for future expansion.
A conference facility, possibly, but not a convention center, said Diamond, who helped commission a privately funded study in 2004 that ranked an Alltel Stadium parking lot as the top potential convention center site in the city.
"The task force will pull it all together and develop a strategy," Diamond said.
Creation of the task force is pending a meeting between the CVB and Jacksonville Economic Development Commission; that meeting is anticipated to occur before the end of the year, CVB spokeswoman Jennifer MacPhee said.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081706/met_4470314.shtml
Can anybody describe how large Union Station is FUNCTIONALLY? Assume, for example, that commuter rail never comes to fruition...would Union Station simply be too large and too expensive for just Amtrak running through there?
QuoteI doubt a 100% privately funded convention center is feasible but perhaps a public/private partnership with multiple entities could reduce the risks and costs for all?
Lake, let's let the administration put it out to bid and see the responses we get? Shall we?
Go for it. I have no problem with looking at things in greater detail. That's the logical thing to do before going one way or the other.