Metro Jacksonville

QuoteIt’s been almost three years since work came to a sudden halt on the Berkman II condominium tower downtown on Bay Street. It still stands gaping and incomplete, and apparently there’s nothing the city can do about it.

Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, said that by state law, the developer still has an active building permit for the construction that was stopped in December 2007 when an adjacent garage collapsed.

“We’d love for it to be built,” Barton said. “But it’s a private matter. The city is not involved in any way. You can’t make them demolish it and you can’t make them finish it.”

Barton said his office has been in discussions with the property owners to clean up the ground-level debris around the building. But he also said that he hasn’t heard from the developer, Harbor Companies, in several months.

“We’ve got a phone call into them,” he said.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-08-29/story/works-progress-berkman-ii-developer-mum-its-future

ANd yet private citizens owning historic springfield homes are routinely seeing their structures demolished.

The city has no authority to act? Balderdash.

Wow you cant make them finish it or demolish it, whats wrong with that picture.

There is NOTHING the city can do??  I'm sure the city has hassled or bullied countless builders with an 'active building permit'.  Why can't they do that here??  Are they scared or dos a GOB have a stake in the property?

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 30, 2010, 09:37:33 AM
There is NOTHING the city can do??  I'm sure the city has hassled or bullied countless builders with an 'active building permit'.  Why can't they do that here??  Are they scared or dos a GOB have a stake in the property?

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Must be that Good Ol' Boy network at it again. I don't think the city should be involved in the tearing down of private property, but if they can do it in Springfield, surely they can do it to a far more visible black eye on the Downtown skyline.

The only difference between this and the Park View Inn is that this is NEW blight.

How long before the permit is not valid. I believe there are time limits on construction permits.

Come on there has to be a loophole somewhere.  This could become an attractive nuisance.  If kids start hanging out here and someone gets hurt, eventually, this limbo status will end. 

I dont care what happens, either finish it or demolish it and clean up the grounds and put a park there or something. Im just sick of looking at it......

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on August 30, 2010, 09:33:39 AM
Wow you cant make them finish it or demolish it, whats wrong with that picture.

I had to read that line twice....thats some real backward stuff right there. Someone needs to feel the pressure but who? Has it been almost 3 years since that man was killed in there? And they wont even finish the job? Can the mans family get a finished unit? Im just saying....

Quote from: Coolyfett on August 30, 2010, 05:56:23 PM

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on August 30, 2010, 09:33:39 AM
Wow you cant make them finish it or demolish it, whats wrong with that picture.

I had to read that line twice....thats some real backward stuff right there. Someone needs to feel the pressure but who? Has it been almost 3 years since that man was killed in there? And they wont even finish the job? Can the mans family get a finished unit? Im just saying....

What is the OCG doing? It would seem to me that there is a time limit on any permitted work and if they refuse to finish the job, the City needs to step up, tear it down and bill the developer! IMHO! A few shape charges at the correct points and down it would come............so whats the big deal?

folks it is really simple...the City doesn't own the property....unless it is physically dangerous, demolition is out of the question

Just spoke with a close friend last night who works on some downtown development projects, I ran this subject past him and even though he or his company have nothing to do with it, he said the building is a fairly common topic on the lips of developers. Apparently a lot of developers aren't too happy about it.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 30, 2010, 07:50:55 PM
folks it is really simple...the City doesn't own the property....unless it is physically dangerous, demolition is out of the question

it's an abandoned building site. of course it's dangerous. demo it before the football seasons starts so we don't look like fools when the rest of the country's watching for that one game that's not blacked out.

Quote from: arteest on August 31, 2010, 07:47:36 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 30, 2010, 07:50:55 PM
folks it is really simple...the City doesn't own the property....unless it is physically dangerous, demolition is out of the question

it's an abandoned building site. of course it's dangerous. demo it before the football seasons starts so we don't look like fools when the rest of the country's watching for that one game that's not blacked out.

Not really sure anyone is watching the game is as much concerned about the incomplete building on the riverbank, unless these out-of-towners are watching every Jag game and start noticing the lack of progress throughout the season...

This point does however lead me to wonder if any other larger citys are in this same boat with unfinished development issues? And what are they doing, if anything?

I do know Las Vegas has a incomplete condominium tower adjacent to the Palazzo/Venetian resort, directly on the Strip!

I think it's going to sit in its current state for at least 10 years.

I would not endorse spending taxpayer money to demolish that structure.  That would cost millions.  I prefer to let it sit, them work out their issues and spend our money on things that actually improve the community.

Quote from: Lunican on August 31, 2010, 08:52:11 AM
I think it's going to sit in its current state for at least 10 years.

In ten years it will be all rust, haha.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 31, 2010, 09:48:10 AM
I would not endorse spending taxpayer money to demolish that structure.  That would cost millions.  I prefer to let it sit, them work out their issues and spend our money on things that actually improve the community.

Agreed! Maybe somebody should plant some vines and other plants and make it into a large artificial habitat for all of downtowns wildlife. :P

Quote from: 904Scars on August 31, 2010, 07:58:20 AMThis point does however lead me to wonder if any other larger citys are in this same boat with unfinished development issues? And what are they doing, if anything?

The building that immediately comes to mind is the Majesty Building off of I-4 in Altamonte Springs. You've probably seen it a million times when driving between Jacksonville and Orlando. It's the huge building right on I-4 that has seemingly been under construction for ten years before grinding to an (unfinished) halt. From what I understand, the owners of the building were a religious group who had planned to construct the entire building from donated money. When the money dried up, so did the construction. The building has since become a real embarrassment for the city, and has earned the nickname "The eyesore on I-4." Like a previous poster mentioned though, there really isn't much that can be done about it.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 31, 2010, 09:48:10 AM
I would not endorse spending taxpayer money to demolish that structure.  That would cost millions.  I prefer to let it sit, them work out their issues and spend our money on things that actually improve the community.

+1
It is my understanding that the lawsuit entering into arbitration is a very large sum of money (36 million) that the developer is trying to recoup from the GC and one of the sub contractors (SPS) who were found to be at fault by OSHA for the accident.  

Why should taxpayers foot the bill demolish a structure that could be completely salvagable (Remeber the garage and tower were separate structures).  I am no engineer, but I have talked to numerous professionals who have said the building will be fine for someone to continue on.  Everyone on this forum complains about the City and what they have done with Downtown, so why would we want them to force this developers hand to demolish, then have the City take back that property to do absolutely nothing with it?

I'm not sure what the current developer will ultimately do, but I know they have complete 2/3rds (The Plaza and Berkman Town
Homes) of what they said they were going to do when they first came on the scene in 2000.  I would assume like any accident of this magnitude that nothing is going to be completed until this pending litigation is handled.

I am with Lake, let the developer handle the litigation and have the opportunity to resume.  If you demolish it, then the taxpayers may very well foot the bill and does anyone think there is a developer willing to come in and build a luxury high-rise on the river soon in its place?

Sure some rust on parts of it but the concrete structure will be sound unlike some wood structures left in semi open state.

Big lawsuit on the garage and a stalled bottomed out real estate market I don't expect to see any progress for a while. They are "mum" cause they don't know.

I don't think there are any buyers at the prices they would need to make any money.

Here is a 1/1 in Berkman 1 for $65k.
http://www.realestate.com/FL/Jacksonville/35878762-400-E-BAY-Jacksonville-FL-32202-538351-home-for-sale.aspx

2/2 for $114k
http://www.realestate.com/FL/Jacksonville/33603180-400-E-Bay-ST-Jacksonville-FL-32202-484459-home-for-sale.aspx

Those are two very cheap condos and there have been many more in The Plaza that have sold at low prices.  The Plaza fell victim to people buying these during the boom at the height of condo prices as investment properties then getting hit with two special assessments on top of that.  It has been a perfect storm, but most of the distress property inventory has been sold out of The Plaza.

The Peninsula however continues hold value and re-sales have been selling in there in the $260-$300/ sq. ft. range.  I am not comparing The Peninsula to Berkman II, but I feel with the remaining distress inventory being bought up in The Plaza over the next 6-12 months, that Berkman II would have demand if priced between the "comps at The Plaza and The Peninsula.  It would depend on that meeting the developers profit need.

On a side note, I can speak very confident on The Plaza and Peninsula prices because I am a RE Broker who focuses on selling the Downtown area.

Having returned from years in South America (home of cutting edge European modern furniture and decor manufacturing), I found Berkman the LEAST likely to attract my dollars for a residence. The faux "art nouveau" decor howls tasteless redneck deep into the night. After my visit and tour, I drank a whole fifth of Rebel Yell trying to kill the butterfly's in my stomach. While the Rebel Yell didn't cure a thing, you could hear the little bastards crying out in pain all night long.  

OCKLAWAHA

Leave it as is and convert it to an "Urban Outdoorsman Center"?

We could use it as a base to make "St. Louis city Museum" style structure.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2010, 11:12:26 AM
Having returned from years in South America (home of cutting edge European modern furniture and decor manufacturing), I found Berkman the LEAST likely to attract my dollars for a residence. The faux "art nouveau" decor howls tasteless redneck deep into the night. After my visit and tour, I drank a whole fifth of Rebel Yell trying to kill the butterfly's in my stomach. While the Rebel Yell didn't cure a thing, you could hear the little bastards crying out in pain all night long.  

OCKLAWAHA

Nice visual! I wish sometimes you were more specific. Having lived there a year in it's heyday as an apartment building, I understand your emotion and tend to agree but it might just be as good as it gets in Jacksonville! What do you think of the Penisula?

Quote from: Ethylene on August 31, 2010, 12:04:36 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2010, 11:12:26 AM
Having returned from years in South America (home of cutting edge European modern furniture and decor manufacturing), I found Berkman the LEAST likely to attract my dollars for a residence. The faux "art nouveau" decor howls tasteless redneck deep into the night. After my visit and tour, I drank a whole fifth of Rebel Yell trying to kill the butterfly's in my stomach. While the Rebel Yell didn't cure a thing, you could hear the little bastards crying out in pain all night long.  

OCKLAWAHA

Nice visual! I wish sometimes you were more specific. Having lived there a year in it's heyday as an apartment building, I understand your emotion and tend to agree but it might just be as good as it gets in Jacksonville! What do you think of the Penisula?

The Peninsula is a giant step in the right direction, as is the ground floors of the Strand, very light and international in design. The apartments themselves were something of a disappointment, carpet everywhere, standard fixtures... YAWN. 11E, Carling, and best of show, METROPOLITAN LOFTS are the closest thing to the international flair I grew so fond of in the Andes.

The inquisitive Colombian attitude is sort of  like, "So you built a new home? Cool, what features did your architect pioneer in it?"

OCKLAWAHA

When (if) they eventually restart construction at B-II, will they have to replace all that sheet rock that has been exposed to the elements for so many years?  In other words, strip the walls down to the framing?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 01, 2010, 06:53:55 AM
When (if) they eventually restart construction at B-II, will they have to replace all that sheet rock that has been exposed to the elements for so many years?  In other words, strip the walls down to the framing?

I was poking around the site Sunday morning on my weekly trip to the potential 680' public pier... and from the naked eye, it looks like they would need to be replaced.  I imagine the elements are taking effect on the exposed steel as well.  There is also a lot of exposed rebar in the lower portion of the concrete columns, don't know if that was from the collapse or not.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2010, 09:52:50 PM


The inquisitive Colombian attitude is sort of  like, "So you built a new home? Cool, what features did your architect pioneer in it?"[/b]

OCKLAWAHA

Suggested solution, I guess we all should employ more architects! And our architects should parlay more fantasy into reality! My next home will be in a much more modern vein or I will die trying to obtain same! Those are some great pics Ock, thank you for posting.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 30, 2010, 07:50:55 PM
folks it is really simple...the City doesn't own the property....unless it is physically dangerous, demolition is out of the question

Been to Springfield lately?

um...the City labels those properties as dangerous, requires the owner to make repairs, then demolishes if need be

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 05, 2010, 11:45:02 AM
um...the City labels those properties as dangerous, requires the owner to make repairs, then demolishes if need be

Actually, they label them "dangerous" because some paint is peeling or the weeds in the yard have grown too high. Real danger there, huh? Then they intentionally mail the violation notices to incorrect addresses (or not at all), so the owner doesn't find out about it until the fines have become massive. Then they demolish it using their emergency demolition powers, notwithstanding the fact that no emergency or public danger exists, tearing the place down before anybody has the chance to know what was going on, much less do anything about it.

So they can do that, but can't take down a ruined structure, which partly collapsed during construction killing a worker?

Makes  me wonder why that Hotel downtown, which appears to me to be a hazard, is still standing? Evidently there appears to be two sets of rules........single homes go in the blink of an eye, but a multi-room ex-hotel dwelling can hang around forever! WTF?

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 05, 2010, 02:43:49 PM
Makes me wonder why that Hotel downtown, which appears to me to be a hazard, is still standing? Evidently there appears to be two sets of rules........single homes go in the blink of an eye, but a multi-room ex-hotel dwelling can hang around forever! WTF?

Ok, here goes, my 100th post! I guess you're speaking of the Park View Inn above. It not only appears to be a hazard, it most definitely is! Sometime ago, more than a year, I was taking my usual route on foot past this hideous complex and I suddenly heard metal sliding. I stopped in my tracks to figure out what was happening and sure enough a portion of the roof came sliding in my direction. I quickly determined I was far enough away on the sidewalk to avoid being t-boned but it was not out of the realm of possibility that anyone venturing any closer for any reason might have been clobbered!

Imagine being homeless, down on your luck, sleeping off the Colt 45 or what have you, only to be rousted still pickled and now also skewered!

Hours later on my return trek, that long metal section had been carted off, otherwise I would have called it in! In hindsight, I wish I had raised cain about this long neglected hazard! How long before parts begin sliding off Berkman II?

Quote from: Ethylene on September 07, 2010, 11:53:10 AM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 05, 2010, 02:43:49 PM
Makes me wonder why that Hotel downtown, which appears to me to be a hazard, is still standing? Evidently there appears to be two sets of rules........single homes go in the blink of an eye, but a multi-room ex-hotel dwelling can hang around forever! WTF?

Ok, here goes, my 100th post! I guess you're speaking of the Park View Inn above. It not only appears to be a hazard, it most definitely is! Sometime ago, more than a year, I was taking my usual route on foot past this hideous complex and I suddenly heard metal sliding. I stopped in my tracks to figure out what was happening and sure enough a portion of the roof came sliding in my direction. I quickly determined I was far enough away on the sidewalk to avoid being t-boned but it was not out of the realm of possibility that anyone venturing any closer for any reason might have been clobbered!

Imagine being homeless, down on your luck, sleeping off the Colt 45 or what have you, only to be rousted still pickled and now also skewered!

Hours later on my return trek, that long metal section had been carted off, otherwise I would have called it in! In hindsight, I wish I had raised cain about this long neglected hazard! How long before parts begin sliding off Berkman II?

Well the place was not exactly what you'd call "well-built" to begin with. I'm not sure if you remember or not, or how long you've been in Jacksonville, but this was the very same building whose attached parking garage randomly collapsed and killed a worker during initial construction because of bad design and construction defects.

So your guess is as good as mine as to how long it's going to stay open and exposed to the elements and salt air before all the rebar is corroded and the place becomes structurally unsound. Given all the shenanigans that went on during its construction, I doubt it will last very long...

The design was fine - the concrete sub was cutting corners with the concrete's psi rating and the pour was all jacked up - air bubbles.  They were being sloppy and cost someone his life.  Let's also remember that if this had happened at 9 instead of 5:30 - you can add 50 - 100 more people to the obituary.

That's very true and frightening to think about.

Didn't the city give this land to the developer on the promise of completing a 2nd tower by 2009? Perhaps there is an avenue in that direction to get something done.

Imagine living in any of those 3 bedroom units or adjacent floor-plans at The Plaza that face the monstrosity....

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 07, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
The design was fine - the concrete sub was cutting corners with the concrete's psi rating and the pour was all jacked up - air bubbles.  They were being sloppy and cost someone his life.  Let's also remember that if this had happened at 9 instead of 5:30 - you can add 50 - 100 more people to the obituary.

I have some hearsay info too. I heard it collapsed due to insuffficient bracing. Additionally that there were forty people on the top floor completing a pour at the time of the collapse.

Perhaps we should open a can of google and try to find the facts?

I had thought that the "City Building Inspectors" would have been on scene for concrete pours? Have seen plenty of City people on site at the new Courthouse. I have been in on building multifloor concrete structures (post tensioned designs) and you have a big enough length of floor, it is broke down into two pours. Vibrators are all over the place to drive air pockets out but from the looks of it, the Berkman II is old school design. I saw no evidence of cables............just a lot of rebar up as well as out. Had "Inspectors" all over the cotton picking place........this process was used on all of the projects I worked on from Pensacola to Mobile Bay.

Bucket,
The TU did a story about this last year...

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-05/story/berkman_plaza_2_years_later_a_trail_and_tale_of_fatal_errors (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-05/story/berkman_plaza_2_years_later_a_trail_and_tale_of_fatal_errors)

I remember that story. I recall the blame being distributed around. Each finger pointer has what seems a valid argument. Having poured a little bit of concrete, I know that too much re bar in too little an area will prevent you from being able to sufficiently fill all voids. (even with a vibrator)

Additionally, the engineer has a valid point about shoring. If he instructed crews to leave all shoring in place until after the top floor had cured, sub crews/General Contractors/Inspectors would also be liable. I don't see any specific claim to that effect in the article.

What is unsure is whether the garage was indeed capable of standing after completion and carrying a maximum live load. (cars)

This article is preliminary and as I (mis?)understand, no final judgements have been made.

Occurrences such as this certainly undermine confidence in hi rise construction and long term safety.

I wonder just why they are using outdated designs and construction methods? State of the Art,back in the late 80's was "Post tensioned Cable Structures"! Cables took the place of alot of the rebar, cost was lowered, but took an archetetic with some smarts to generate plans that made sense! Cost, overall, was cheaper than a straight rebar'd building of any size on a square foot basis!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2010, 09:52:50 PM
CAN YOU GUESS WHICH ONE IS IN THE "3RD WORLD?" IE: Colombia?

The Peninsula is a giant step in the right direction, as is the ground floors of the Strand, very light and international in design. The apartments themselves were something of a disappointment, carpet everywhere, standard fixtures... YAWN. 11E, Carling, and best of show, METROPOLITAN LOFTS are the closest thing to the international flair I grew so fond of in the Andes.

The inquisitive Colombian attitude is sort of  like, "So you built a new home? Cool, what features did your architect pioneer in it?"

OCKLAWAHA

Answer to the qestion? They are ALL from Colombia!




OCKLAWAHA