Metro Jacksonville

Just wanted to give this thread a bump, since the JTA meeting is tomorrow.  For us newbs, is there anything we should know about attendance them?

QuoteAugust 23, 2010
BRT Southeast Corridor Public Meeting
Time: 4:00 PM - 7:00 PM
Location: Best Western-Southpoint

Make sure to sign in and fill out a "speakers card" so you can make public comment. Expect it to get heated, and don't expect JTA to respond with straight answers...  It's a dog and pony show to tell all of us how they will destroy any chance for rail as well as the hair brained scheme for a parallel BRT system they are going to ram down our throats. JTA doesn't know the meaning of the words "Multi-Modal Mass Transit," but then they don't know the meaning of most words.

Be ready to read between the lines and challenge them on any and every point.  Watch for little gems like they pulled out with their recent BILLION DOLLAR BRT PLAN which attempted to show the savings over Light Rail by quoting the per mile cost of Light Rail lines that were built elevated or in subways then explaining why "bus was better." Using social services buildings to prove BRT has attracted TOD, but failing to point out only city, county or state funded TOD which pays no taxes. Fact is, if thought was taxed, JTA would be due a rebate.

Understand that BRT is not bad, but a parallel application such as UNDER THE SKYWAY (SOUTHBANK) and PHILIPS HIGHWAY is STUPID! You can’t fix stupid. Creative minds aren’t everything. In fact in JTA's case they’re nothing. Any legal eagles out there? Where's Riversidegator when we need him? Seems to me we could really toss a monkey wrench into this plan by filing a charge of "Gross Abuse of Public Funds" at them for all of this duplication especially since most of the city has almost no service at all. Numbers are skewed, accounting is questionable, research is shoddy, and the trail of failed projects endless. The agency couldn't withstand a real legal attack on behalf of the citizenry of Northeast Florida.

They have the BRT concept scaled back to a favorable scale meaning it would be affordable and worthwhile IF they would design to compliment rail, Skyway, streetcar, water and bus.

I'll be there good Lord willing and the creek don't rise.


OCKLAWAHA

WHAT? PUBLIC HEARING
WHERE? BEST WESTERN - SOUTHPOINT
WHEN? 4-7 MONDAY

Better plan to attend and raise some hell, this is an outrage and a thinly veiled effort to put rail into the next century. Of course nobody in the meeting is going to hint that this is directed at Rail's jugular, frankly half don't even know and the other half doesn't care. They are the emperors minions, DON'T LET THEM DELUDE YOU with their pre-prepared script. The first couple of hours are usually a meet and greet with a salesman or woman for every map and photo. A more formal presentation should roll around about 6:00 pm if they follow their standard practice.

Damn shame that AVA PARKER, JTA Chair, doesn't show up for these public comments because only then would she or the Board of Directors really hear the public and the drivel that JTA pours on the citizenry.

Quote

JACKSONVILLE TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY BOARD OF DIRECTORS

Board of Directors

The Authority's governing body has seven members. Three members are appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the Senate; three members are appointed by Jacksonville's Mayor and confirmed by the City Council; and the seventh member is the District Two Secretary of the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT). Members serve a four-year term with the exception of the FDOT Secretary who serves the length of his/her employment in that position, and can be re-appointed for an additional four years. The members of the Authority are not entitled to compensation, but are reimbursed for travel and other expenses actually incurred in their duties as provided by law.

Ava L. Parker
Chairman

Mrs. Parker was appointed by Mayor John Peyton. She is a partner in the law firm Lawrence, Parker & Neighbors, LLC. She brings years of government experience to the JTA board, having previously worked for both the Public Service Commission and the Florida Department of Transportation.

Michael Cavendish
Vice Chairman

Michael Cavendish is a Jacksonville attorney practicing as a shareholder with Gunster Yoakley & Stewart, P.A. He has served in chairmanships for local, state, and national lawyer organizations and maintains an active role in local grassroots civic improvement associations. He is also involved in fundraising efforts for local non-profit organizations. Mr. Cavendish was appointed to the JTA by Governor Charlie Crist in 2007.
   Michael Cavendish, Board Member

Donald P. Hinson
Secretary

Donald P. Hinson, appointed by Mayor John Delaney and reappointed by Mayor John Peyton, is both a registered professional engineer and general contractor, bringing valuable insight to the development of the Authority's strategic direction. For two years, Mr. Hinson served as the Board's Chairman.
   
Donald P. Hinson, Board Member

Edward E. Burr
Treasurer

Edward Burr, appointed by Governor Charlie Crist, spent the past two decades building a highly successful real estate development company, LandMar Group, specializing in developing master-planned communities throughout Florida and southeast Georgia. Mr. Burr also formed Hampton Golf, Inc. in 1997, which builds, operates and manages golf courses in executive-style residential communities in both Florida and Georgia, employing over 600 people.
   
Edward E. Burr, Board Member

Cleve E. Warren
Board Member

Cleve Warren, appointed to the board by Mayor John Peyton, is President and CEO of Essential Capital and is a former Vice President with Barnett Bank of Jacksonville. Mr. Warren earned a Bachelor's Degree in Banking and Finance from the University of North Florida and a Master's in Business Administration from Jacksonville University. Mr. Warren is a Jacksonville native.
   Cleve E. Warren, Chairman

A. J. Johns
Board Member

A.J. Johns, appointed to the board by former Governor Jeb Bush and reappointed by Governor Charlie Crist, is President of A.J. Johns, Inc., a utility contracting firm doing business in North Florida since 1970. The firm has 150 employees.
   A. J. Johns, Vice Chairman

Alan R. Mosley, P.E.
Board Member

Alan Mosley, FDOT District Two Secretary, is responsible for the day-to-day administrative, planning, production and operations activities for District Two which encompasses 18 counties in North Central Florida. Mosley began his career with the City of Jacksonville in 1974 and most recently served as the city’s Chief Administrative Officer. He earned his bachelor’s degree from Jacksonville University’s Davis College of Business and he is a Registered Professional Engineer.

SOURCE:
http://www.jtafla.com/AboutJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=27

OCKLAWAHA

CALL THE JTA BOARD AND TELL THEM TO SHOW UP!


OCKLAWAHA

Unfortunately I can't make it, hopefully someone will post details here.

QuoteDamn shame that AVA PARKER, JTA Chair, doesn't show up for these public comments because only then would she or the Board of Directors really hear the public and the drivel that JTA pours on the citizenry.

If JTA board members don't turn up for public hearings designed to address decisions they make, then why are these people board members?  Are they really just stooges for JTA management?  History suggest "yes".

JTA is totally incompetent and unresponsive to the needs of our community and its board sits by silently with nary a complaint or expression of dissent, inquiry, doubt, concern, or alternative thought about JTA management positions.  Just a rubber stamp.  They get away with it because they are accountable to no one.  Maybe JTA's board should be elected, rather than appointed.  While leaving things in the hands of uninformed voters is chancy, it can't be any worse than the worthless and poorly serving arrangement we have now.

I wonder if JTA board members swear a secret oath prior to taking their seats to subvert themselves to JTA management, mere unthinking drones.

JTA needs to be completely dismantled as it's a broken agency hurting this city something terrible.  We need a whole new model for transportation planning.  40 years of failure, incompetency, and misdirection is long enough for us citizens to suffer.  Not one JTA project comes to mind that has stood the test of time as a totally well conceived and well planned legacy.

P.S. And, nothing shows JTA giving the citizenry the proverbial "finger" more than its refusal to post current financial statements on its web site.

QuoteHistory

In 1955, the Jacksonville Expressway Authority was founded to build bridges and expressways in Duval County funded by toll revenues. A merger in 1971 of the original Expressway Authority and several private bus companies paved the way for the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) as it is known today.

Working closely with the Florida Department of Transportation and the City of Jacksonville, JTA develops and implements construction plans to improve traffic flow in our city. Funded by a half-cent sales tax approved in 1988 as a result of the elimination of tolls, JTA manages construction projects on state- and city-owned roadways. Those projects, however, are not maintained by JTA.

Jacksonville voters approved an additional half-cent sales tax in September 2000 to fund The Better Jacksonville Planâ€"a $2.2 billion infrastructure and quality-of-life improvement initiative. JTA is playing a significant role in the implementation of this massive plan with 32 roadway projects totaling more than $800 million. The projects include 12 interchange improvements, roadway widening projects, construction of one major bridge and the design of another.

[JTA joke line:] The Jacksonville Transportation Authority provides high quality regional transit services and roadway infrastructure connecting Northeast Florida

http://www.jtafla.com/AboutJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=33

Ock, MJ should request Mr. Blaylock and company confront the issues, concerns, and allegations made on MJ boards and explain themselves to the public via MJ.  It would be the most accountability they have probably ever been subjected to.

Let's see, of the JTA board members, we have the following breakdown:

A contractor, a developer, an engineer/contractor, and two attorneys.  All, potentially beholden to being in the good graces of JTA, post-board membership, enhancing the likelihood they won't be rocking any of JTA's boats.

One of the attorneys above also used to work for FDOT.  Along with the current FDOT district secretary (and a former aid to the mayor), it is likely these two are too chummy with JTA officials to be very objective either.

That leaves only Mr. Warren as a possible independent voice.  1 out 7.  Not a very good batting average.  But, reading this description of the services his firm provides may also create concern:

QuoteThe Access to Capital Program provides loans to businesses for the moblilization funds needed to start work on municipal contracts. Essential Capital is currently administering this program for the City of Jacksonville. Learn more about the Access to Capital Program at  Jacksonville Small and Emerging Business Access to Captial Program.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HQ-WvUwg3MAJ:www.essentialcapital.net/+essential+capital&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

And this:

QuoteAccess to Capital loans, which allow businesses with transportation-related city contracts to borrow funds via a credit line to pay contract invoices, as they are incurred, are administered by Essential Capital.

Add, that to get selected, you also probably have to donate to the elected official appointing you to be considered, you can see that the "common man" isn't arriving on this scene anytime soon.

While I have no doubt this board may have the best of intentions and character, I see these connections and interests as restraints leading to why the board appears to be so mealy mouthed and ineffective.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 22, 2010, 10:39:56 PM
JACKSONVILLE TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY BOARD OF DIRECTORS

Board of Directors

The Authority's governing body has seven members. Three members are appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the Senate; three members are appointed by Jacksonville's Mayor and confirmed by the City Council; and the seventh member is the District Two Secretary of the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT). Members serve a four-year term with the exception of the FDOT Secretary who serves the length of his/her employment in that position, and can be re-appointed for an additional four years. The members of the Authority are not entitled to compensation, but are reimbursed for travel and other expenses actually incurred in their duties as provided by law.

Ava L. Parker
Chairman

Mrs. Parker was appointed by Mayor John Peyton. She is a partner in the law firm Lawrence, Parker & Neighbors, LLC. She brings years of government experience to the JTA board, having previously worked for both the Public Service Commission and the Florida Department of Transportation.

Michael Cavendish
Vice Chairman

Michael Cavendish is a Jacksonville attorney practicing as a shareholder with Gunster Yoakley & Stewart, P.A. He has served in chairmanships for local, state, and national lawyer organizations and maintains an active role in local grassroots civic improvement associations. He is also involved in fundraising efforts for local non-profit organizations. Mr. Cavendish was appointed to the JTA by Governor Charlie Crist in 2007.
   Michael Cavendish, Board Member

Donald P. Hinson
Secretary

Donald P. Hinson, appointed by Mayor John Delaney and reappointed by Mayor John Peyton, is both a registered professional engineer and general contractor, bringing valuable insight to the development of the Authority's strategic direction. For two years, Mr. Hinson served as the Board's Chairman.
   
Donald P. Hinson, Board Member

Edward E. Burr
Treasurer

Edward Burr, appointed by Governor Charlie Crist, spent the past two decades building a highly successful real estate development company, LandMar Group, specializing in developing master-planned communities throughout Florida and southeast Georgia. Mr. Burr also formed Hampton Golf, Inc. in 1997, which builds, operates and manages golf courses in executive-style residential communities in both Florida and Georgia, employing over 600 people.
   
Edward E. Burr, Board Member

Cleve E. Warren
Board Member

Cleve Warren, appointed to the board by Mayor John Peyton, is President and CEO of Essential Capital and is a former Vice President with Barnett Bank of Jacksonville. Mr. Warren earned a Bachelor's Degree in Banking and Finance from the University of North Florida and a Master's in Business Administration from Jacksonville University. Mr. Warren is a Jacksonville native.
   Cleve E. Warren, Chairman

A. J. Johns
Board Member

A.J. Johns, appointed to the board by former Governor Jeb Bush and reappointed by Governor Charlie Crist, is President of A.J. Johns, Inc., a utility contracting firm doing business in North Florida since 1970. The firm has 150 employees.
   A. J. Johns, Vice Chairman

Alan R. Mosley, P.E.
Board Member

Alan Mosley, FDOT District Two Secretary, is responsible for the day-to-day administrative, planning, production and operations activities for District Two which encompasses 18 counties in North Central Florida. Mosley began his career with the City of Jacksonville in 1974 and most recently served as the city’s Chief Administrative Officer. He earned his bachelor’s degree from Jacksonville University’s Davis College of Business and he is a Registered Professional Engineer.

SOURCE:
http://www.jtafla.com/AboutJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=27

Quote from: stjr on August 23, 2010, 12:10:44 AM
Let's see, of the JTA board members, we have the following breakdown:

A contractor, a developer, an engineer/contractor, and two attorneys.  All, potentially beholden to being in the good graces of JTA, post-board membership, enhancing the likelihood they won't be rocking any of JTA's boats.

ok...enough already!

I'd actually like to see the JTA Board have people that know something about infrastructure....so having a contractor, an engineer, and a developer mnay not be such a bad thing.

And it seems like a pretty goof idea to have the FDOT district secretary sitting on the Board...since much of JTA's funding comes from FDOT and they are certified to design and build projects on state roads.

As for the southeast BRT plan...I don't think there is some insidious plot against rail....I just don't think some of the people see why one would effect the other....explaining why that might not be the case should be the top priority for MJ folks attending.

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2010, 08:14:48 AM
Well not paying attention to who is on the road building authority certainly has worked out for transit for the past 40 years hasnt it?

I didn't know that JTA was the road building authority

I enjoy your input, tufsu. So often the voice of reason in a sea of seemingly ill-informed opinion which can border on slander from time to time.

On this issue, the truth seems fairly obvious, even to someone like myself with no urban planning or transit/transportation experience other than driving a car or the occasional joy ride on the skyway.

BRT directly below an existing monorail is a blatant slap in the face. Two years of unreported accounting is another. It is definitely time to see a couple pitchforks and torches.

JTA builds roads and maintains a very inadequate bus system. (Bussing in Jax is a huge undertaking I realize)

Are our resident experts so far off base?

no buckethed....I generally agree with them.

I'm just saying that I don't think JTA is maliciously trying to kill commuter rail on the FEC for 10 years or more w/ this BRT plan....the problem is they don't even realize that will be the result!

And as to the JTA board....I'd like them to be more engaged, take a more proactive role, and shake things up....but I don't agree that they currently act as just a rubber stamp for JTA staff.

Ocklawaha, I know I have spoken with you several times on this matter through PM and I have shown my interest. Unfortunately I will not be able to attend because of my work schedule. Please however keep me (and all of us) informed as to how this "meeting" folds out. I am very interested in seeing how this all plays out once citizens are given the opportunity to clash heads with JTA. I assume BRT will possibly become a main focus (I hope) but I am also interested in hearing about the Union Station proposal, as well as the use and or destruction of the pedestrian tunnels. Looking forward to hearing about the outcome!

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2010, 09:28:02 AM
no buckethed....I generally agree with them.

I'm just saying that I don't think JTA is maliciously trying to kill commuter rail on the FEC for 10 years or more w/ this BRT plan....the problem is they don't even realize that will be the result!

And as to the JTA board....I'd like them to be more engaged, take a more proactive role, and shake things up....but I don't agree that they currently act as just a rubber stamp for JTA staff.

I am not sure which would be the bigger sin.

1.The board is all for killing rail with this plan.


2. The board is too dumb, disinterested, lazy or corrupt to have actually found out this will be the effect.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2010, 09:28:02 AM
And as to the JTA board....I'd like them to be more engaged, take a more proactive role, and shake things up....but I don't agree that they currently act as just a rubber stamp for JTA staff.

Tufsu, can you give us any significant examples of where the JTA board changed the direction JTA management was headed in on any given project or community initiative?

The image of the board is derived from its own "inactions".  If they have a problem with that, they need to demonstrate otherwise.

By the way, this isn't a slight strictly against the current board.  It's been true for the entire existence of JTA.  There is something systemically wrong with how JTA is put together and oversighted and it needs to be changed, post haste. Even you, above, acknowledge there are flaws, and you are as much a JTA defender on here as there is.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 22, 2010, 10:39:56 PM
WHAT? PUBLIC HEARING
WHERE? BEST WESTERN - SOUTHPOINT
WHEN? 4-7 MONDAY

This is NOT a public hearing. It's a public MEETING. So I wouldn't expect a speaking segment. I'm sure you can write out your comments though and leave them for JTA.

Okay team, eaving my keypad for the afternoon? Maybe Stephen could live blog this!

For those that don't think you can attend, remember the vital part of this is 6-7PM with QandA at the end! Even if you miss most of the meeting, your comments can still be heard. Also JTA has a forum for sending in your comments if you absolutely can't make any part of the meeting. They'll also have comment forms that can be picked up and taken home in about 2 minutes if you want a "drive-by-comment", just mail it back.

...and I agree with what TUFSU said, I don't think these people have a clue what the result will be so play nice.

See y'all at the BUS STOP!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: exnewsman on August 23, 2010, 10:35:27 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 22, 2010, 10:39:56 PM
WHAT? PUBLIC HEARING
WHERE? BEST WESTERN - SOUTHPOINT
WHEN? 4-7 MONDAY

This is NOT a public hearing. It's a public MEETING. So I wouldn't expect a speaking segment. I'm sure you can write out your comments though and leave them for JTA.

My bad! In other words, are we all to shut up?

I'll be there!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 23, 2010, 10:42:40 AM

Quote from: exnewsman on August 23, 2010, 10:35:27 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 22, 2010, 10:39:56 PM
WHAT? PUBLIC HEARING
WHERE? BEST WESTERN - SOUTHPOINT
WHEN? 4-7 MONDAY

This is NOT a public hearing. It's a public MEETING. So I wouldn't expect a speaking segment. I'm sure you can write out your comments though and leave them for JTA.

My bad! In other words, are we all to shut up?

I'll be there!

HECK NO! HAHA


OCKLAWAHA

Here are some questions you all should think about asking.

1. How much will the proposed BRT improvements cost?

2. How will a request for FTA funding assistance on this project impact the similar request for the proposed parallel commuter rail corridor?

3. Why has a decision been made to move forward with BRT along this corridor instead of one in a more transit dependent area that does not parallel a proposed rail project, such as the Arlington/Regency line or Southside Blvd?

4. Where exactly will the dedicated bus lanes be constructed and what segments along Philips will operate in mixed traffic?

5. Considering Philips Highway really does not back up, why spend money on dedicated lane infrastructure at all?  Wouldn't it be more efficient to address individual hot spots (such as the University/Bowden interesection?

6. How will this project be integrated with the proposed I-95/JTB project, which will limit pedestrian and bicycle accessibility between the BRT corridor and Southpoint?

7. Will this BRT corridor be an actual transit line or a corridor set up for multiple existing bus lines to drive to reach their various destinations?

8. Will this BRT project involve parallel bicycle and pedestrian improvements along this entire stretch of Philips Highway?

9. What type of TOD activity can we expect to be generated with this investment in BRT along Philips Highway?

10. Why can't an existing bus line be modified to run with frequent 10-15 minute headways, making stops at the same locations along this corridor now and without FTA assistance? 

nice summary Lake

lake ....I have to add #11 to your summary which would be...............what about covered bus stops for this routing? By the way, I do agree with #10 and should add, I have reservations regarding any enhancement on Phillips simply because the ridership numbers are less than what take place on the north and west side! Having passed bus's on the Phillips stretch many many times and seeing just how many riders are onboard (6 at most and usually less) I would have to question ............is this worth the taxpayer money to do this? There are other stretches that need the enhancement more than Phillips! This is taking into account the ridership numbers for this leg! Jta appears to have no numbers for this particular stretch..............makes me wonder if they are cooking the books again!

JTA has a legimate delema in trying to find a quick way to move buses from the outlaying routes into downtown. Does one pick the least traveled (and thus less popular) route, or the high density congested route?  In this case they are obviously going for the "cheap" and trying to funnel all of the super buses via Philips hoping perhaps pimps and hookers will make up the difference.

Hey team, I even understand the concept of BRT from downtown or from Bay Meadows/Southpoint to Mandarin or the Avenues, but:

1. Don't place it along side a railroad that "we plan" on using for parallel commuter services, the Feds will think we're smoking crack when we ask for the funding to compete with ourselves!

2. Don't place the route along a street where NOBODY wants to go, sure it's cheaper but the results will be just as "CHEAP".

3. As Lake suggests bite the bullet and put the damn BRT on routes that cross the railroad at right angles and thus compliment it.

4. If we must have a BRT lane from downtown to the far corners of the city, choose SAN JOSE, SOUTHSIDE, or ARLINGTON EXPY, ATLANTIC, BEACH, MERRILL, etc...  

5. Don't tell us the bus will be a train and prove that the ridership is there for rail, that is disengenuinious and has NEVER been proved ANYWHERE.

6. Consider improvements on a boulevard such as San Joseh to include "electric trolley bus" on the highest density segments, passive bus lanes using brick/cobblestone and a smooth bus runway, Colorize and light the new transit lane with LEDS. All of these concepts have been proven winners in many other cities.

7. Don't piss on our legs and tell us it's raining!

8. Remember not everyone that works at JTA is an idiot and hates rail, the weird part of this is that even some of the planners assigned to the BRT are huge fans of Commuter Rail or Streetcar or even Skyway. So even though I toss sarcasms right and left (it is my spiritual gift after all) I actually like many of the people at JTA. The enemy is not the individuals at JTA, rather its the King, the Emporors, FDOT, and CUTR, that have this highway agenda all planned out. Keep this in mind before you toss someone "under the BUS!"

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)

We can't let them sell us on the results of inferior transit being representative of what Superior transit will do for us.

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 23, 2010, 01:54:35 PM
lake ....I have to add #11 to your summary which would be...............what about covered bus stops for this routing?

enhanced bus stops w/ shelters is one of the main aspects of the BRT plan

tufsu........glad to hear that! Now you know just where the next question will be going ......what about the other 1,800 stops? BRT gets all of the shelters and the regular bus stops get a sign! $4 Million Dollars later and here we go again!

JTA still messing up?? Man those people will never get it together.

Maybe.............I figure about 100 years from now for sure!

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 23, 2010, 04:37:26 PM
tufsu........glad to hear that! Now you know just where the next question will be going ......what about the other 1,800 stops? BRT gets all of the shelters and the regular bus stops get a sign! $4 Million Dollars later and here we go again!

I know this will be hard to understand, but I'm going to try

Operational funds (like the $4 million) can't be used for capital projects....which is what bus shelters are.

Now, here's what JTA is doing about shelters:

1. installing 24 new shelters downtown
2. relocating existing downtown shelters to other locations throughout the city
3. designing shelters for the BRT route through downtown...those should be installed by 2012
4. trying to get private investment for shelters (through ads and/or sponosrhips)

Nothing is going to happen overnight....but they do seem to be on the right track

Good workshop tonight.  I learned several interesting tidbits about JTA's BRT plans. Will elaborate later.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2010, 06:53:39 PM
Good workshop tonight.  I learned several interesting tidbits about JTA's BRT plans. Will elaborate later.

I look forward to it! Thanks for attending for those of us who couldn't.

Hope so lake! Got higher priority things going on and could not make it! tufsu........I know all about the 24 "Historic flavored" shelters going in on the BRT route for downtown! I know about the removed shelters supposedly being refurbished for placement somewhere else in the system (with JTA's propensity for cooking their numbers......will believe it when I see it and not before! Can you blame me?) I know all about JTA working on the private/public investment in connection for advertising/sponsorship! So I have to ask.............with the number of YEARS that JTA has been in operation, it never occurred to anyone there to do something about shelters? It just proves a point I made long ago........bus's are not for JTA since they do not ride them nor do they care about the people who do ride them. JTA is interested in the concrete aspect only.....more roads equals more bus's and cars! This is not a long view that any prudent person could sustain which is why I say JTA cares not for the public! They have no problem using Federal money to enhance their world......once again, yours and my tax dollars hard at work to sustain their little world and lets not forget about the "subsidizes" we the taxpayers pay out for them to continue to operate!

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 23, 2010, 07:32:44 PM
tufsu........I know all about the 24 "Historic flavored" shelters going in on the BRT route for downtown!

obviously not, because the 24 shelters are going on the non-BRT route streets

Here are a few things I heard tonight.

1. This 11 mile BRT corridor will have five stops and is anticipated to cost around $25 million.

2. Park and Ride lots will be constructed at JTB and Bowden.  A Kiss and Ride will be constructed at Avenues Walk.

3. Buses will run every 10-15 minutes down Philips.  They claimed this service would be different from commuter rail because that system would run every 30-60 minutes.  Thus, they see having systems paralleling each other as no problem.

4. JTA plans to move forward with a study on BRT paralleling the CSX A line in 2011 and one to Regency in 2012.

5. They would like to have the Philips BRT line completed by 2014.

6. 30-40% of the $25 million will pay for new buses.  40% will pay for stations (shelters) with real time information.  The rest will go for traffic signals and queue jumps.

Now for the problems.

I asked why can't they take an existing bus and run it down Philips every 10 minutes now instead of needing to spend $25 million up front. I was told because JTA could not afford to do pay with BRT improvements without federal dollars.

Obviously, after seeing the BRT cost breakdowns, I don't agree with this answer.  Getting down to the basics, you can immediately eliminate up to 40% of the capital costs by using existing buses instead of buying new ones.  Second, lets be real.  Philips is not a congested corridor and traffic isn't really increasing on this facility.  Thus, there is no immediate need to invest in queue jumps and traffic signal priority infrastructure.  So, you can deduct another 20% in costs right there.  Last, a bus line that has a bus coming every ten minutes really doesn't need real time information.  Scrap that and provide 10 basic shelters at the five proposed stops.  Even if you purchase shelters priced at $40k/a piece, that only adds up to $400k.  There would be significant savings here by going no frills instead of paying for bells and whistles, which amount to 40% of the proposed BRT costs.

Last but not least, Stephendare exposed the fact that no one really lives or works on Philips.  Thus, there should be information on how buses will connect into this corridor to take riders to their final destination.  Unfortunately, JTA hasn't figured that out yet.  So after spending $25 million and possibly screwing up the chances of landing federal money for the parallel commuter rail corridor, a bus could drop you off along Philips every 10 minutes but you may be waiting for 45 minutes to an hour for the connecting bus to get you to your final destination.

We've got our work cut out for us.  

JTA is developing quite the expertise in building riderless transit systems built with "we can't resist taking" Federal funds.  Forget the ongoing, less than fully Federally-subsidized costs of operations.  At least we finally have found what they are experts at.  ???

I said BRT was shaping up as a Skyway on rubber tires.  Soon, Ock and others, as with the Skyway, originally opposed, will be forced into saying we invested this much, if only we can expand it for millions more so it will work as planned and to salvage the original investment.  Deja vu.  Uh huh.

Where did this idea originate from?  As previously stated, no one really lives/works along the Philips Hwy corridor.  Is it just a reaction to Federal funds being available?  If so, that's obviously a TERRIBLE reason to spend/waste $25Mil.  There doesn't seem to be much justification for even Lake's far less expensive alternative given that there doesn't seem to be much demand for service in the area (let alone service with 10-15 minute headways!).  I swear, it's almost impossible for me to go from Riverside to the Southside in a reasonable about of time at a reasonable time for work, but we can provide regular service to an area that doesn't have much demand?????  JTA, I WANT to use your service...please make it easy for me to do so!!!  I'll even settle for 'easier'

Other than going after federal dollars, this does not have much in common with the skyway. This is a plan to put a number of existing bus routes on Philips before branching out to various Southside destinations, along with a single line that will run every 10 minutes straight down the corridor.  

They already modify the system at least three times a year.  There is no logical reason why service can't be modified along this corridor, without the fluff or federal money.  The real money being spent will be for additional features like signal priority, real time information, new buses and queue jumps.  While all these things are nice, they aren't needed to run a reliable service.  Especially on a corridor that does not back up or directly serve walkable destinations.  Since the bus is going to struggle to attract choice riders and won't spur needed economic development, why spend more money on it than neccessary?  

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2010, 11:40:21 PM

Quote from: stjr on August 23, 2010, 11:35:32 PM
JTA is developing quite the expertise in building riderless transit systems built with "we can't resist taking" Federal funds.  Forget the ongoing, less than fully Federally-subsidized costs of operations.  At least we finally have found what they are experts at.  ???

I said BRT was shaping up as a Skyway on rubber tires.  Soon, Ock and others, as with the Skyway, originally opposed, will be forced into saying we invested this much, if only we can expand it for millions more so it will work as planned and to salvage the original investment.  Deja vu.  Uh huh.

Quote
Is this an attempt to be an island of One, STJR.

LOL, Stephen.  Hardly think I am an island of one when it comes to the Skyway except in your own mind.  But that's OK since I know you have a fertile imagination.  :D

QuoteIf you can figure out how to build  a cheaper or more funtional transit bridge over the St John's, by all means, do let everyone know. :D

Not sure what this has to do with my comment here but I will repeat it has been previously pointed out that the Acosta and Main Street Bridges have the potential to carry buses and streetcars.  Certainly, buses would be cheaper than the Skyway.  But, I expect you to look that over since it doesn't dovetail with your opinions.

QuoteI was never opposed to the Skyway, am still not opposed to the skyway, and don't plan on being opposed to it in the future.

Who said anything about what you did or didn't oppose, Stephen.  I said "Ock and others".  Why do you think that automatically includes you?  In the end, the past is the past and I was only showing the possible repetition of JTA's incompetence.  Why must everything I post be attributed by you to you, Stephen?

Quote
The BRT however, we agree on, and can work together towards making sure that the best choices are made.  I believe it to be rail.

Not sure I find much redeeming about BRT based on Ock and Lake's post but I do agree that commuter and streetcar rail are worthwhile.  I will also support expanded bus service if done competently but I have yet to see a convincing plan.

QuoteI am not sure exactly what mass transit you are for, since most of your posts concern corruption and your opposition to the skyway, rather than which system you would like to see implemented, but I hope that we are all on the same page regarding support of rail.

I have said a thousand times to you I support mass transit rail of various kinds and the bus system done right.  Just as above.  But, again, you twist what I write to suit your own intentions.

Stephen, are you a werewolf?  At night, your character is transformed.  ;D

Quote from: 9a is my backyard on August 23, 2010, 11:48:49 PM
Where did this idea originate from?  As previously stated, no one really lives/works along the Philips Hwy corridor.  Is it just a reaction to Federal funds being available?  If so, that's obviously a TERRIBLE reason to spend/waste $25Mil.  There doesn't seem to be much justification for even Lake's far less expensive alternative given that there doesn't seem to be much demand for service in the area (let alone service with 10-15 minute headways!).

It sounded like getting federal money was a major focus.  We were told headways had to be something like 10-15 minutes to qualify as "BRT."  Imo, this whole thing needs to be repackaged.  The idea, in and of itself is not a bad one (when developed in the proper context) but it seems like they are not designing a future integrated transit system from a holistic point of view.

If there is an area on the Southside that needs a shot in the arm, Philips is it.  No bus service is going to do that.  Rail will but you're going to damage those chances by adding transit services that duplicate corridors and compete for riders.  Why blow your wad and opportunity on a substandard alternative that will put our community a couple of more decades behind our progressive peers?   

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2010, 11:51:24 PM
Other than going after federal dollars, this does not have much in common with the skyway.

Since the bus is going to struggle to attract choice riders and won't spur needed economic development, why spend more money on it than neccessary?  

Lake, how can you post the comments and then say there are no parallels with the handling of the Skyway?

The Skyway was a pork barrel project to grab federal money.  BRT appears from your own post to be the same.

The Skyway was touted as promoting economic development but hasn't.  You just said the same about BRT.

The Skyway struggles to attract riders.  You just said the same about BRT.

The Skyway lacks destinations people desire.  You, Ock, and others have said the same about BRT on Philips Highway.

The Skyway lacks connectivity.  You have said there is no connection between BRT and cross connecting rail or bus routes.

The Skyway is a waste of money vs. streetcars.  You just opined that BRT is spending unnecessary money.

The Skyway damaged the advent of rail transit in Jax.  Now you say BRT may do the same.

JTA has mismanaged the Skyway and is lining up to do the same with BRT per you and Ock.

Dunno about you, but I see lots in common.

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2010, 12:06:57 AM
The bus system doesnt work.

I have always supported this contention.  Lack of good routes and frequencies.  Poor service and poor promotion to boot.  You have said as much and I fully agree.

Quote
So you are for buses, possibly trolleys.  Its good to know what you are for, finally.

No "finally". You just chose to ignore my posts or twist them in your mind.  I have also supported commuter rail and improvement to pedestrian and bike transit.  Basically, I am only against the Skyway and, now, the BRT based on its current form.  And, of course, the botched plan for the intermodal center.  All this repeatedly posted on MJ.  Go read the record if you "dare"!  ;D

QuoteSeriously, your posts have mostly been about corruption and government waste, not transit.

Not a transit expert but I do have more common sense than JTA.  Right now, that appears to outweigh their lack of expertise, competency in execution, and self serving agendas.  How can you can say I don't post about transit after probably hundreds of posts on the subject is beyond me.  I will refrain from asking you what is bending your mind tonight.

QuoteAn all bus transit service cant ever replicate the benefits or the strengths of fixed rail transit, and thats just a fact.

Rail and bus are different modes, each with advantages and disadvantages.  As to which, it depends on what problem you are trying to solve.  One shoe size doesn't fit all.  What are you saying?

QuoteI am interested to know STJR, why you think that bus service is preferable to rail, or skyway.

See above comment.  Where did I ever say I always preferred bus service over rail or even compared the two?  I do think that bus service beats the Skyway by far in cost effectiveness and utilitarian value.  How you jump from that to other conclusions is beyond me.

QuoteAnd if you think that is true, how can you possibly be against the BRT?

Once again, Stephen, what planet are you on?

QuoteOr are you really just anti mass transit?

Midnight paranoia setting in on you again, Stephen.

Quote from: stjr on August 23, 2010, 11:35:32 PM
I said BRT was shaping up as a Skyway on rubber tires.  Soon, Ock and others, as with the Skyway, originally opposed, will be forced into saying we invested this much, if only we can expand it for millions more so it will work as planned and to salvage the original investment.  Deja vu.  Uh huh.

Actually the Skyway IS a transit system on rubber tires.

STJR, you do realize that according to newspaper articles, TV interviews and getting my ass run out of town, I probably did more damage, and created more uproar over the Skyway then any group of local citizens. In some circles including a couple of former mayors, it is said the damn thing was never finished thanks to me turning the City against it. Bottom line? I would NEVER have built the Skyway in the first place if that decision was up to me, but frankly as long as we got our heritage streetcar starter line I was perfectly willing to design both as complimentary systems. If it had to be one way or the other as JTA and the mayor thought, I was 100% behind rail. Hell the streetcar plan IS my idea!

You continue to suggest I have compromised my position (for some unknown reward?) which I find insulting. I haven't, but I am also a transit planner and realist with the following opinions:

The $200 Million invested in the Skyway already should not be sacrificed since it is already punched through most of the Central Business District and carries some pretty weighty advantages of it's own (or at least COULD carry some advantages).

Considering a like sum of money today would probably extend it to multimodal stations in neighborhoods where people actually live-work-play we could take advantage of the Obama Administrations zeal in assisting expansion and improvements on fixed rail systems (The Skyway IS a type of rail) and the Skyway qualifies. The dismal performance of the unfinished railroad to nowhere, paid for by the Federal Government is embarrassing to them as well as us, a fact that would boost our chances to get funding for a major fix.

As for me "Compromising" my anti-BRT stand? Uh, better read my stand before going in this direction. I LOVE BRT, really it's a great idea if it's not overbuilt. My "anti" argument is based almost 100% on the piss poor choices JTA has made in regards to both application and routing. Hell if it was up to me we'd have 300 miles of BRT within the city, but not one foot of it would duplicate the Skyway, Railroad or Streetcar routes.  Timuquana, Blanding, Cassett, Post, Kings, Edgewood, Lem Turner, Norwood, Moncrief, Talleyrand, Merrill, University, JTB, Dunn, Zoo Parkway/Hecksher, Wonderwood, I-295 (Buckman), San Jose, Atlantic, Beach...
Hell BRT would be everywhere in various stages of basic, deluxe or something in the middle, all coordinated with Skyway, Rail, or Streetcar.  

I don't want to read how I and my "others" will twist in the wind when you apparently don't have a clue what we are attempting to achieve.

I want just one thing from JTA...  DO IT RIGHT!


OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I have read your tales of woe on the Skyway countless times.  I have said before I respect your position.  We simply disagree on where to turn at the current fork in the road: put more money in it or abandon it.

As to any other plan, when I oppose it, it is based on the plan as presented by JTA.  So, we agree, I think, that we oppose, together, their current BRT plan.  I am not opposing the concept of BRT and don't know that I have posted so.  I do fundamentally oppose the Skyway, because, unlike the BRT, I think it is an inferior concept vs. other alternatives, with or without JTA's "helpful" mismanagement.

My comments above relating to you are that I see this BRT project getting off on the same foot as the Skyway some 20+ years ago.  An ill conceived Federal money grab that will mortgage Jax's mass transit future for years to come, both with the Feds and the public.  And, given your well stated opposition then to the Skyway and your current desire to "salvage" that $200 million, I can see this process being repeated when people rise and say we need to "salvage" a failed BRT for the same reasons.  History repeating itself.  My invocation of your name was meant to be a synonym for that experience.  No offense intended.  To the contrary, I am looking for you NOT to repeat your prior experience.  Good luck.

Thanks for the explanation. I too can see someone wanting to salvage the BRT program, but honestly there is really nothing to salvage. No fixed route, no reusable vehicles (assuming that they are at their mandated retirement age), stations, nothing of use except maybe the stop light priorities could be sold to some ambulance company, and the que jumper lanes used for automobiles. Guess they could take down the real time information signs and recycle them...  Hey! Maybe on the Skyway!

Oh well, there just isn't any substance to BRT, and WAY TOO MUCH OF IT on the Skyway.



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on August 24, 2010, 12:07:47 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2010, 11:51:24 PM
Other than going after federal dollars, this does not have much in common with the skyway.

Since the bus is going to struggle to attract choice riders and won't spur needed economic development, why spend more money on it than necessary? 

Lake, how can you post the comments and then say there are no parallels with the handling of the Skyway?

The Skyway was a pork barrel project to grab federal money.  BRT appears from your own post to be the same.

From my understanding, the skyway was a federal demonstration project that many city's competed for.  BRT is not.

QuoteThe Skyway was touted as promoting economic development but hasn't.  You just said the same about BRT.

Integrating land use with the skyway's original route would have stimulated economic development.  By not following the original concept of connecting the medical centers and surrounding neighborhoods outside of downtown or building up around it, we have been our own system's worst enemy.  On the flip side, BRT is not a federal demonstration project, the proposed routes are horrible and there's a strong track record of these systems not spurring economic development for obvious reasons.

QuoteThe Skyway struggles to attract riders.  You just said the same about BRT.

The skyway struggles to attract riders because it isn't integrated with the regular bus system and it wasn't built with major destinations at the end points.  However, if managed properly and integrated into the downtown master plan, the skyway would not have a difficult time attracting choice riders in areas that served them.  BRT, on the other hand, will.

QuoteThe Skyway lacks destinations people desire.  You, Ock, and others have said the same about BRT on Philips Highway.

The major difference is the skyway's conceptual route actually hit major urban core destinations.  Unfortunately, we're still in the planning mode and the BRT corridors are horrible right from the start, based off faulty information provided by questionable studies conducted a decade ago.

QuoteThe Skyway lacks connectivity.  You have said there is no connection between BRT and cross connecting rail or bus routes.

Again, going back to the original planning stages, it did not.  However, we built the existing segment in a manner that lacks connectivity and have done everything in our power to limit its effectiveness.  If implemented as originally designed, it would have been (and still could be) a vital part of a regionalwide integrated mass transit system.

QuoteThe Skyway is a waste of money vs. streetcars.  You just opined that BRT is spending unnecessary money.

Not really, both of these technologies have their pros and cons on the environments they impact.  This community can only blame itself for screwing their potential up.  In this manner, the same could be said for BRT.  Now that we do understand the mistakes we made with the implementation of the skyway, there's no reason we should be repeating them.  This last statement alone should serve as a major difference between the planning of the skyway and BRT.

QuoteThe Skyway damaged the advent of rail transit in Jax.  Now you say BRT may do the same.

Neither damaged the advent of rail themselves.  The people we've put in charge of rolling these mass transit improvements did by rolling them out in some of the worst ways imaginable.

QuoteJTA has mismanaged the Skyway and is lining up to do the same with BRT per you and Ock.

Dunno about you, but I see lots in common.[/b]

It really depends on how you choose to frame the cause and effect of history to determine how common or not they are.  You don't, but I see huge environmental differences in how these two projects have come along throughout their planning and implementation processes.  In the 1970s, we did not have the strong track record of LRT and streetcars spurring transit oriented development throughout urban areas in this country.  The rebirth of the streetcar movement and LRT was seen just as conceptual as the skyway (which again was a demonstration project).  On the other hand, we now have three solid decades of successful implementation of LRT and streetcar, yet instead of going with what works, somehow we've put it in our minds to go with an expensive substandard system that has already proven that it does not spur development.  Imo, this background alone is a major difference between the two.  However, I do agree that a common trait is the agency in charge of rolling them out.  If you can't roll these things out right, they will fail (the streetcar and commuter rail will too, if planned from the same standpoint, btw).

Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2010, 12:01:33 AM
If there is an area on the Southside that needs a shot in the arm, Philips is it.  No bus service is going to do that.  Rail will but you're going to damage those chances by adding transit services that duplicate corridors and compete for riders.  Why blow your wad and opportunity on a substandard alternative that will put our community a couple of more decades behind our progressive peers?   

+1 Lake! 

Apparently Stephen said what I was thinking reading through this. What the hell is every 10-15 mins on Phillips going to do? Get people to Walmart and home quicker? Perhaps pick up some granite counter tops? If they cannot connect this service to timely services running up JTB, Southside, and Baymeadows what is the point? 25MM to get people to Walmart seems a waste. I have been honest in saying I would not rid the bus her in Jacksonville-the drivers, passengers, service, and routes make it not worth it to me. Rail, I would take. Rail is special and unique. Rail will get you where you need to go, but it is also such a treat to ride!

It seems some of the readers of First Coast News want light rail! scroll down to the comments.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=164245&catid=3

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2010, 10:42:30 PM
Last but not least, Stephendare exposed the fact that no one really lives or works on Philips.

while I agree that there are very few folks living on Philips, there is actually quite a good bit of employment....especially south of JTB....and I'm not even including the office parks north of Baymeadows between I-95 and Philips.

Overall, I see Philips Highway as a perfect transit corridor....it can be a spine route with local buses circulating to/from the community and the stations.

That said, there is a rail line paralleling the road....use it (instead of BRT) and then the transit could be a bump for needed development and redevelopment in the area.

I want to stop all of this bus pretending to be a train nonsense.  If however the JTA has to do it why not JTB to the beach passing all of the working buildings in south point, St. Luke's hospital, SJTC, UNF, all of the Gate Parkway business parks, Tinseltown, Mayo Clinic to all the people living at the beach.

there is nothing wrong with offering enhanced local bus service with limited stops and good headways.....the issue here is that JTA think they need Federal New Starts/Small Starts money to do it...and as such, they have to call it BRT.

The BRT project will have 10-15 minute headways and cost about $25 million...the federal share will be in the $15-$20 million range.....ao here's my question....why would FTA give JTA another $100+ million for commuter rail on the same corridor, especially if it only runs every 30-60 minutes?

Which because of the route chosen will lend itself to killing commuter rail or at least competing with it.

I haven't really thrown in my 2 cents on this. Unless they seriously throw the entire system back on the drawing board I will NEVER use the bus system here in Jax. Though the new system would be great, as most have stated it only connects to main roads with lack or residence and major business. Where is the plan within the plan for connections? I'd much rather see a rail system developed that stops within designated hot spots in the core area. I'm trying to keep from bias as I understand not everyone lives in the core, however I feel at some point and time most Jacksonvillians could still get great use out of it (sporting events, concerts, weekend bar nights). I'm just rambling I guess but regardless JTA needs to wake up. Spend a couple thousand dollars in plane tickets sending the head-honchos to other Southern cities, pay a guy to smack them around a bit and rub their faces in what Jacksonville COULD be. HAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2010, 08:38:17 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2010, 10:42:30 PM
Last but not least, Stephendare exposed the fact that no one really lives or works on Philips.

while I agree that there are very few folks living on Philips, there is actually quite a good bit of employment....especially south of JTB....and I'm not even including the office parks north of Baymeadows between I-95 and Philips.

Overall, I see Philips Highway as a perfect transit corridor....it can be a spine route with local buses circulating to/from the community and the stations.

That said, there is a rail line paralleling the road....use it (instead of BRT) and then the transit could be a bump for needed development and redevelopment in the area.

But shouldn't they have done this (or at least attempted it) in the first place?  The infrastructure is already there for a rail spine-line.  Route the faux-BRT lines off of it.

Now we're doing bass-ackwards and/or not at all.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2010, 08:47:35 AM
there is nothing wrong with offering enhanced local bus service with limited stops and good headways.....the issue here is that JTA think they need Federal New Starts/Small Starts money to do it...and as such, they have to call it BRT.

The BRT project will have 10-15 minute headways and cost about $25 million...the federal share will be in the $15-$20 million range.....ao here's my question....why would FTA give JTA another $100+ million for commuter rail on the same corridor, especially if it only runs every 30-60 minutes?

That is the issue alright. So the BRT portion should be the routes off of the commuter rail on Philips. Say up JTB, Bay meadows, Southside. That would be money well spent, and would compliment a commuter rail. That Federal money, is in reality OUR money and should be spent soundly, not just throwing together something that will not be used for the sake of getting the cash. I am confident if this plan goes through as is, you will have some dwellers in the area riding to Walmart, and some of the pimps/hookers/crackheads riding from their weekly hotel room up the street to the stop and rob. Workers are not going to share that bus, and even if they did how would they actually get to their place of work?

Strangely enough, after spending $25 million, BRT won't even be stopping at that Walmart.  There will only be five stops spread out over 11 miles.  Stops will most likely be at the intersection of major crossroads, not actual shopping centers, office complexes and other destinations.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/959875312_WQMD6-600x10000.jpg)

Here are examples of what you'll be getting dropped off at every 10-15 minutes after your $25 million investment.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7541-p1150305.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7543-p1150348.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7535-p1150319.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7545-p1150320.JPG)

I wonder if it would be a better idea to spend that money on sidewalks before buying more buses?

Take the images, the environment above, add the expensive shelters below at the five major intersections and you'll have a good visual image of what BRT will look like after a $25 million investment.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968125934_GuFx2-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968131004_HanR7-M.jpg)

Is this the best way to spend $25 million (easily over $100 million when factoring in all four BRT legs and the downtown segment) for better bus service on Philips?

So it is just a park and ride concept. This just keeps getting worse.

QuoteStrangely enough, after spending $25 million, BRT won't even be stopping at that Walmart.

That's really the most assanine part of the plan.  The proposed route doesn't connect to one of the only three(four if you include a strip club  ::) ) true major destinations along Phillips.  And if I used this route to get to work(I went home and studied the maps after the meeting), it wouldnt save me any time from what would be my normal bus route when you factor in having a very long transfer time at Phillips/JTB into the Gate Parkway area.
So, really from a personal perspective this proposed plan doesnt really operate any more efficiently than the current bus system... and isn't that the entire point of building it?

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2010, 12:22:28 PM
10 and 15 minute headways to go hang out for a theoretical feeder system that will run every hour or so.

This is why its so important to have people that ride the buses being part of the process.

I actually asked one of the JTA team which Corner of Phillips Highway she would choose to hang out on for an hour or so.

She replied that she had a list of the ones she wouldnt hang out on.

Ridiculous.

Stephen you do not even have to ride the bus to see how dumb this plan is. I do not ride the bus and totally get it. This seems to be more about job security than transportation for the people who would use it IF it worked. Just another line that will be driving around with three people per bus.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2010, 11:46:46 AM
I wonder if it would be a better idea to spend that money on sidewalks before buying more buses?

As part of a resurfacing project, FDOT will be adding bike lanes and sidewalks to the portion of Philips south of Baymeadows

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2010, 07:45:09 AM
What I am saying is that most of your conversation has to do with the politics and administration of transit and not the actual application of transit.  

Considering that "politics and administration" are apparently the real driving forces in designing and "applying" our transit, that's exactly where the conversation needs to be.

I have made my point numerous times that underestimating the politics and administration of transit in this town will continue to result in the poor decisions historically made in Jax.  You can jump JTA all you want for its innumerable "professional" shortcomings for which I more than share your outrage but until you deal with the political side of JTA, TPO, FDOT, and CoJ and the administration (in my book, particularly the straight-jacket funding and prioritization of projects) I don't see any real change coming.

That's why I proposed that the entire governance structure of JTA and the TPO charade needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.  The current arrangement aides and abets lack of oversight and accountability which begets the absence of rigorous debate, the failure to fully consider all alternatives, ignorance of best practices, failed professional execution, tolerance of complacency and incompetence, and, mostly, inadequate demand for quality transit solutions that deliver the results we are seeing in other communities and more than paying for here.

Were any of the JTA board members able to pass up the early evening sitcom reruns and be botherd to attend the meeting?

That puts her in a sympathetic light. I'm glad you guys were there nevertheless. Poor planning should never become too comfortable.

Gentlemen..........there is something inherently wrong with pushing BRT, which is better than rail ....according to the JTA buffoons, when that region does not have the ridership or homeowners or renters to fully fill any BRT conveyance! I have passed bus's on that route that had a total of 4, if that many, riders on-board and wonder just why are we wasting our money on another half ass ed bus system! Either do it right or don't do it! Nice to see that JTA is adding another 10 covered shelters to that route...........now they just have to do something about the other 1800 that have a sign and that's it folks!

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 24, 2010, 04:08:40 PM
I have passed bus's on that route that had a total of 4, if that many, riders on-board and wonder just why are we wasting our money on another half ass ed bus system!

and I've passed multiple stops on Philips Hwy in the afternoon where 4+ people are waiting for the bus....so I'd bet there are a good bit more than 4 people on the buses.

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 24, 2010, 12:45:27 PM
Stephen you do not even have to ride the bus to see how dumb this plan is. I do not ride the bus and totally get it. This seems to be more about job security than transportation for the people who would use it IF it worked. Just another line that will be driving around with three people per bus.

Agreed! I have personally never ridden Jacksonville's bus system. I have other cities and at no inconvenience, shoot even Cancun Mexico has a better setup with covered stops etc. I've heard the horror stories and have yet to have reason to try it.

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2010, 04:58:13 PM
L7, L9, CTI, SS35 are the bus routes that go down phillips.

Not to split hairs, but Philips is a long stretch of road.  They all four don't cover the exact same geography, do they?  

Like L9 before it got rerouted went SJTC, Southpoint, eventually up the northern portion of Philips (if I remember correctly).  

To my knowledge, that particular line doesn't go near Avenues/South Philips, does it?

Moreover, is it a bad thing that at least part of the same stretch of road (granted, we're not talking like 20 miles' worth or anything) is covered by multiple lines?

--EDIT-- The only time I think I've seen more than two or three people riding or waiting on a bus was around the Regency Mall's drop-off area...

Nooooo stephen............he was busy pedaling! tufsu does not drive at all right? Bet he has fun going over the Main Street Bridge! AM bus's on Philips are no where near full......or even half full! Rush hour maybe 4 to 6 maximum as to riders! If there are more at the stops on Philips...........that would be due to either running late or else they missed the one they were trying to get! BRT on Philips is a waste of money and resources.....not to mention, just how are the riders from South Point supposed to get to Philips to get on the BRT? Walk on JTB with its many sidewalks? Let me guess..........gonna build another $kyway to connect from South Point to the JTB gathering point for BRT? If they park at the Philips Highway side, yes there is parking, looking forward to JTA charging for parking there, but how do they get to South Point? Parking is on the west side of Philips and South Point is on the eastside of Philips! There appears to be a glaring problem with the planning on this project!

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2010, 04:48:45 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2010, 04:48:09 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 24, 2010, 04:08:40 PM
I have passed bus's on that route that had a total of 4, if that many, riders on-board and wonder just why are we wasting our money on another half ass ed bus system!

and I've passed multiple stops on Philips Hwy in the afternoon where 4+ people are waiting for the bus....so I'd bet there are a good bit more than 4 people on the buses.

so you saw them as you were driving by, did ya?

as a matter of fact, yes....but I've also ridden the L7 route a few times.

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 24, 2010, 08:25:53 PM
Nooooo stephen............he was busy pedaling! tufsu does not drive at all right? Let me guess..........gonna build another $kyway to connect from South Point to the JTB gathering point for BRT? If they park at the Philips Highway side, yes there is parking, looking forward to JTA charging for parking there, but how do they get to South Point? Parking is on the west side of Philips and South Point is on the east-side of Philips! There appears to be a glaring problem with the planning on this project!

While it's certainly not the dreaded BRT, the following are some shots of MICRORAIL, a concept originally for Fort Worth while today it has been proven and looking for markets. $5-8 Million a mile COMPLETE! Elevated, faster then the automobiles and can be built as a PRT (personal rapid transit) system...  

HEY TUFSU1? DESIGNED FOR BIKES ONBOARD TOO!

I put it on here just to validate your sarcasm (which I love BTW). As we continue to fill our satellite downtown with new offices, clinics, hospitals, corporate centers, retail and high density housing it would make all the sense in the world to start drawing the squiggly lines on the map that represent a circulatory network that would feed BRT, STREETCAR and COMMUTER RAIL.

There are certain links that have become so commonplace that today they should be mass transit no-brainers. Orange Park - Southpoint - Town Center, Downtown - Southpoint - Town Center - Mayo/UNF/Beaches, etc... Pathetically the JTA has managed to miss most of the opportunity's being exposed as we grow. While their determination to follow yesterdays idea's rather then listen to the citizenry or MJ'S professionals.  I only wish and pray that the current "brain cloud" would clear and like those magnificent little railways in the Andes, JTA would learn to Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.

OCKLAWAHA
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.

While not a fan of BRT, the question remains, what comes first?

Do you set up the transit path and then have the city do appropriate zoning around it?

Or do you wait until there is a requisite density and then you build out your solution?

The problem here is that we have neither. You have two marginally connected entities acting as standalone organizations.

JTA builds the routes, but the city does nothing to promote transit based zoning around it.

The city approves new development, but takes no effort to make sure it can accommodate transit.

The only thing they seem to get along on with is roads. (again marginally) The one project where they had to work together (TBJP) has issues with financial management.

So while it is easy to blame JTA for all things, it's poor city leadership in failing to express or legislate transit based directives in its civic code.

Actually, I think the City has made real strides in allocating future land use and zoning consistent with JTA's transit vision....and the planning groups at both have been working closely together....things should only get better w/ Brad Thoburn (former City Planning Director) coming on-board at JTA.

I don't think their overall vision is bad....they just haven't thought out some of the details enough...and are progressing in the wrong order on the BRT routes

Quote from: spuwho on August 25, 2010, 07:49:32 AM
While not a fan of BRT, the question remains, what comes first?

Do you set up the transit path and then have the city do appropriate zoning around it?

Or do you wait until there is a requisite density and then you build out your solution?

This is an easy question to answer.  Its sort of like, what comes first, the McDonalds or the road to get to it.  Rail builds density, not the other way around.  That's the way it's been for well over a century now.  It's happening in sprawling cities like Charlotte, Houston and Phoenix right now with their new rail starter lines.  

QuoteThe problem here is that we have neither. You have two marginally connected entities acting as standalone organizations.

We have density within the urban core (preconsolidated city).  Recent success stories in the cities mentioned above obviously prove this since we happen to denser than some of them.  That's where you should start first with better mass transit investments that directly link major destinations together.

In addition, it's not really a "if you have the density" situation.  Mass transit works best when you provide reliable service that directly links major destinations where your riders want to go.  Get that right and you'll be just as successful in Salt Lake City as you will in NYC or Chicago.

QuoteJTA builds the routes, but the city does nothing to promote transit based zoning around it.

The city approves new development, but takes no effort to make sure it can accommodate transit.

On this level, we have room to improve on multiple sides.  However, those improvements can come hand in hand and at the same time instead of sitting around debating who should be the chicken or egg.

QuoteSo while it is easy to blame JTA for all things, it's poor city leadership in failing to express or legislate transit based directives in its civic code.

Don't know if you've been following the 2030 Mobility Plan stuff over the last few months but the city is addressing what you say their not above.  Lets hope the JTA can get on board.

Btw, if interested in reading it, here is a link to the land use policy changes in the works:

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning+and+Development/Community+Planning/Mobility+Plan.htm

http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/exmxvuunsr5mvhrvg2mijrtk5euzukiuwvhlb4oe7dkhvnj4i3sddx75ignklflz32yo55h4tuvpyzhsd3ivkfdvjlc/2030+Mobility+Plan+DRAFT_1-20-10.pdf

Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2010, 08:16:23 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 25, 2010, 08:11:28 AM
I don't think their overall vision is bad....they just haven't thought out some of the details enough...and are progressing in the wrong order on the BRT routes

They don't have an overall vision.

And that is bad.

http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/

this is the same basic transit plan that is included in the City's 2030 Mobility Plan and the TPO's 2035 LRTP

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 25, 2010, 08:11:28 AM
I don't think their overall vision is bad....they just haven't thought out some of the details enough...and are progressing in the wrong order on the BRT routes

The one good point made was that 'We really need to better connect the Northside with employment centers'.  And on that point, no one could agree more.  However, the other BRT lines(Phillips and DT) really just seem to be nothing more than a federal money grab and bag.  And one that will ultimately hurt existing fixed transit(skyway) or hurt the potential for additional fixed transit options(commuter rail).  This is a non-sarcastic, non-condensing honest question... how does that fit into any sort of comprehensive long term vision for transit in our fair city?

Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2010, 08:51:57 AM
A "plan" isnt the same thing as having 'vision'.  Its whats so annoying about the clownish self importance of the TPO here.  No vision.

but wait...the JTA plan is the same as the one the City and TPO now have....and I thought you were a huge fan of the City's Mobility Plan and have noted the vision of folks at the Planning Department?

Where did the transit elements of the City's Mobility Plan come from?

Quote from: fsujax on August 25, 2010, 11:13:16 AM
Where did the transit elements of the City's Mobility Plan come from?

I believe JTA

Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2010, 11:21:22 AM
Which you fully know, and if you are claiming that there is a final transportation plan that is going to be executed with dedicated funds, then that would make you a liar.

nope....would never make that assertion....in fact, there is no transportation plan in Florida that inclues dedicated funds for anything more than 5 years.  

having a plan and having "dedicated funds" are 2 very different things.

unless we're talking about a short-range plan (usually no more than 5 years)

My turn............as have said "No vision, No plan and no funding! This BRT escapade for Philips is just a sponge for Federal Funding (our tax dollars........one more time) When completed, great we have BRT and see how good it does the job? Too bad there are no legs to South Point so workers might take advantage of that but hay.....they can park and ride at the Philips side and then walk along JTB! Or maybe join traffic and ride their bikes! JTA is at it again........no vision, no plan and no funding, unless Uncle Sugar coughs up some more!

Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2010, 08:27:55 AM

Quote from: spuwho on August 25, 2010, 07:49:32 AM
While not a fan of BRT, the question remains, what comes first?

Do you set up the transit path and then have the city do appropriate zoning around it?

Or do you wait until there is a requisite density and then you build out your solution?

This is an easy question to answer.  Its sort of like, what comes first, the McDonalds or the road to get to it.  Rail builds density, not the other way around.  That's the way it's been for well over a century now.  It's happening in sprawling cities like Charlotte, Houston and Phoenix right now with their new rail starter lines.  

QuoteThe problem here is that we have neither. You have two marginally connected entities acting as standalone organizations.

We have density within the urban core (preconsolidated city).  Recent success stories in the cities mentioned above obviously prove this since we happen to denser than some of them.  That's where you should start first with better mass transit investments that directly link major destinations together.

In addition, it's not really a "if you have the density" situation.  Mass transit works best when you provide reliable service that directly links major destinations where your riders want to go.  Get that right and you'll be just as successful in Salt Lake City as you will in NYC or Chicago.

QuoteJTA builds the routes, but the city does nothing to promote transit based zoning around it.

The city approves new development, but takes no effort to make sure it can accommodate transit.

On this level, we have room to improve on multiple sides.  However, those improvements can come hand in hand and at the same time instead of sitting around debating who should be the chicken or egg.

QuoteSo while it is easy to blame JTA for all things, it's poor city leadership in failing to express or legislate transit based directives in its civic code.

Don't know if you've been following the 2030 Mobility Plan stuff over the last few months but the city is addressing what you say their not above.  Lets hope the JTA can get on board.

Btw, if interested in reading it, here is a link to the land use policy changes in the works:

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning+and+Development/Community+Planning/Mobility+Plan.htm

http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/exmxvuunsr5mvhrvg2mijrtk5euzukiuwvhlb4oe7dkhvnj4i3sddx75ignklflz32yo55h4tuvpyzhsd3ivkfdvjlc/2030+Mobility+Plan+DRAFT_1-20-10.pdf

Hey Lake,

First, I already knew the answer (transit comes first). I was posing it as an open question for the group here.

On density, there has been some arguments about our extra-urban density levels and whether they are high enough to support a "collector" which can feed a system directed to the urban core. Because of the swamp based geography here, there are many captive developments which make transit difficult to serve. I completely agree on the major destination/venue service you note.

I used to work with commercial real estate here in Jacksonville, and it never comes up. Not in design, not with potential clients, not in traffic pattern analysis. One reason Seattle has had success is that they have had the urban planning laws since the early 80's. Parking, density, transit awareness, set backs, it's all been codified so that each development gets its due. When Seattle Metro was approached to get a new stop developed, they had their checklists and requirements, we had our metrics, and the stop was approved. It was a fantastic arrangement as it actually helped nearby businesses attract more foot traffic. I would like to think it could happen here too.

COJ and JTA may be performing cooperative planning today, but my impression is that it is a more recent activity, as I struggle to locate any results as of late.

Thanks for the links, I will check them out and I look forward to further dialog.

spuwho...............you have entered the Twilight Zone! Welcome to our world......and you are correct on the very recent co-operative planning between City and JTA! Both have plans, kinda, but there is no oversight or vision from either agency, not to mention no funding dedicated either! Transit does come first and the rest will follow unless it is zoned out of existence!

Spuwho, yes most of the activity is fairly recent. Many of the sites like this and the people participating on them are the reason for the change of events.

spuwho, Interesting comments and I think you stopped just shy of a major transit advantage that Jacksonville and Seattle already share with Pittsburgh. All three of these cities are "swamp based geography" or "mountain based geography", and while it does create captive neighborhoods, it will also cause lineal development either between the waters or between the hills.  Lineal development actually works very well for fixed route mass transit as Seattle is relearning, and Pittsburgh is demonstrating. It works great in Medellin, Colombia too BTW. It is not nearly as important for an entire zip code zone to have high density as long as the vital arterial route space has it.

If bus development mirrors the automobile in its shotgun approach, rail would simulate a high powered sniper rifle. The straight-through-the-pass footprint is repeated over and over again both historically as well as today in Seattle and Pittsburgh.

Streetcar and Interurban development of the first era tended to be 1. compact, 2. dense, 3. lineal in nature 4. mixed use 5. transit oriented 6. vertical.  There is no reason why today's new fixed route transit cannot duplicate much of this style development within the inner city and inner city neighborhoods in the form of in-fill. Sprawling modern tracts and plaza style developments if not rebuildable, can certainly be altered or enhanced to embrace modern interpretations of the only purely American form of mass transit (streetcar) or other forms of fixed route transportation.


OCKLAWAHA

Makes too much sense Ock! Until the City and JTA see the advantages we are doomed to BRT instead of a multiuse mass transit system! Stupid JTA/City Hall!

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 27, 2010, 01:47:13 PM
Makes too much sense Ock! Until the City and JTA see the advantages we are doomed to BRT instead of a multiuse mass transit system! Stupid JTA/City Hall!

but CS...a multiuse mass transit system in Jax. should include commuter rail, streetcar, skyway, local bus, AND BRT...the only issue here is in the timing....I would have no problem if they started w/ commuter rail along Philips Hwy followed by BRT.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 27, 2010, 08:29:16 PM
but CS...a multiuse mass transit system in Jax. should include commuter rail, streetcar, skyway, local bus, AND BRT...the only issue here is in the timing....I would have no problem if they started w/ commuter rail along Philips Hwy followed by BRT.

As I read it, the issue is that the proposed BRT route runs parallel to our existing rail corridor which will compete with commuter rail in the future. Should the BRT system not feed/disperse commuter rail in an integrated system?

^The other issue is timing.  How realistic is it to believe that the feds would fund commuter rail on the FEC to directly compete with a parallel BRT line, also funded by them, anytime soon?

I find that to be a very reasonable argument. I don't see it happening.

What I find so alarming is that our JTA planners don't seem to consider such issues. Same with the skyway. If we neglect to honor responsible investment in transit, why on earth would daddy give us more transit money?

Quote from: buckethead on August 27, 2010, 09:00:03 PM
As I read it, the issue is that the proposed BRT route runs parallel to our existing rail corridor which will compete with commuter rail in the future. Should the BRT system not feed/disperse commuter rail in an integrated system?

True BRT systems operate like rail...as a spine, not as a feeder....now, as Lake points out, this is hardly true BRT....but there is nothing wrong with having good bus service paralleling a rail corridor...many cities have just that.

As designed, this route could compete w/ commuter rail...it could also compliment it....the major problem is in asking the Feds for money twice....instead, we should ask FTA for assistance w/ commuter rail and fund enhanced bus service without "New Starts" money

That makes perfect sense. I believe I recall seeing that definition of BRT (Spine, not feeder) previously. I guess I lost it somewhere in the shallow confines of my mind. :-[

I realize it can be trying for experts when attempting to convey details to the general public (me) so again, thanks for keeping at it.

JTA can improve bus service along this corridor without FTA assistance by increasing the L7's frequency from 30 to 15 minutes, having the private sector pay for shelters and using existing buses along this corridor.  The expensive parts of the BRT costs (new buses, queue jumps, TSP, real-time information, etc.) are not a necessity for no-frills reliable bus service on a non congested street (Philips Hwy).

Btw, Los Angeles' Orange Line is a prefect example of BRT being a spine and a feeder.  The Orange Line is a spine for buses traveling between the Red Line (subway) and destinations that aren't along the rail corridors.  However, that bus spine still funnels (feeds) those suburban bus riders into the urban rail spines.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/LACMTA_system_map.png/623px-LACMTA_system_map.png)

Anyone notice how the heavy rail, light rail and BRT corridors don't parallel each other? This is how rail and BRT should work in Jax.

lake..........I agree with your concept! Multiple systems should not parallel each other! There should be connection points between them where they cross but with BRT paralleling both Skyway and possible rail sections..........they are shooting themselves in the posterior! No vision and I get tired of applying to Uncle Sugar for start up monies! Either way, we the taxpayers, end up footing the bill! A no frills system would be the most cost effective system for start up......but until the lights go on.........we are doomed by JTA's translation of what a mass transit system is!