Bringing Amtrak to Downtown Jacksonville Inexpensively
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8268-p1170407.JPG)
Metro Jacksonville explores an affordable way to accelerate the relocation of Amtrak to downtown.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jul-bringing-amtrak-to-downtown-jacksonville-inexpensively
The temporary station concept is a great idea.
just one question.....do Federal guidelines allow passengers to cross over active rail tracks at stations (remember there are no crossing gates)....if the tunnels can not be used, this is a key issue for the relationship of commuter rail w/ Amtrak.
when I was in San Diego last year, I crossed over the light rail tracks at their station with no problem....and crossing the commuter rail tracks to get over to Amtrak was also somewhat easy (although people are channeled to specific crossing areas)....but that is the end of the line for the intercity trains, so there are no trains coming from the south
To my best recollection, we are allowed to cross over the tracks at the designated crossing. This is how we board trains at the current Amshack...
Quote
The temporary station concept is a potentially affordable way to advance the relocation of Amtrak back to downtown. The advancement of such a project would put Jacksonville and downtown in position to immediately economically benefit from ongoing efforts to establish passenger rail service between Jacksonville and Miami.
Too much common sense for the powers-that-be? Or is this option a viable one for whomever's in charge of this? Are we doomed to an expensive, crappy, over-done monster?
In this plan there is NO need for passengers to cross a live track, EVER. The driveways you see on the East and West are for baggage, fuel and other service vehicles.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 23, 2010, 09:21:27 AM
In this plan there is NO need for passengers to cross a live track, EVER. The driveways you see on the East and West are for baggage, fuel and other service vehicles.
OCKLAWAHA
I agree.
Why is this only a temporary solution? Sounds like it should be the plan from outset. Take the money saved and put it towards equipment and infrastructure of other stations and get this running.
The temporary fix won't meet with approval unless you find a way to build it with tons and tons of unnecessary Gate concrete.
I see the plans for platforms, but what about the necessary track improvements to accomodate freight and passenger trains. What is the plan for that? Where will the Amtrak trains be split and serviced? What needs to happen with the track configuration coming from the north and SW? Does anything need to be improved? what would the cost for that be?
Quote from: ac on July 23, 2010, 11:11:02 AM
The temporary fix won't meet with approval unless you find a way to build it with tons and tons of unnecessary Gate concrete.
LMAO
So true.
I think this plan should be implemented as soon as possible because it makes a statement that we are serious about rail in Jacksonville. It also puts us into a much better position when it comes to asking for federal grants and other funding. Having Amtrak downtown will improve ridership and make Amtrak more visible. This seems like a logical first step and will help planners visualize the possibilities for the future of mass transit downtown. Good work guys!
Quote from: brainstormer on July 23, 2010, 12:45:35 PM
I think this plan should be implemented as soon as possible because it makes a statement that we are serious about rail in Jacksonville. It also puts us into a much better position when it comes to asking for federal grants and other funding. Having Amtrak downtown will improve ridership and make Amtrak more visible. This seems like a logical first step and will help planners visual the possibilities for the future of mass transit downtown. Good work guys!
Right on!
Quote from: brainstormer on July 23, 2010, 12:45:35 PM
I think this plan should be implemented as soon as possible because it makes a statement that we are serious about rail in Jacksonville. It also puts us into a much better position when it comes to asking for federal grants and other funding. Having Amtrak downtown will improve ridership and make Amtrak more visible. This seems like a logical first step and will help planners visualize the possibilities for the future of mass transit downtown. Good work guys!
I co-sign your comment, brainstormer! For the life of me, I cannot understand why our city continues to drag its feet on this matter. Cities like Wilmington DE are doing great things with their Amtrak station and our city leaders seem not to give a damn.
because most of our city leaders dont give a damn!
Quote from: fsujax on July 23, 2010, 01:46:04 PM
because most of our city leaders dont give a damn!
I guess that it makes sense that our city government show complete apathy toward moving Amtrak downtown. It's almost like our mayor and city leadership have a direct interest in the companies that profit from continued gridlock and exclusive focus on highways and airports... After all, it takes a lot of concrete to build more freeways. But, I digress. Their lack of vision makes me wish that stephendare and lakelander were running our city instead of the clueless jerks who run things now...
It isn't just our leadership....most of the public in Jacksonville (and likely throughout FL) think of Amtrak as another federal government program that bleeds red ink....folks in the northeast (like Wilmington, DE) think otherwise.
A lot of folks in our city are ignorant of the fact that we even have Amtrak service. I hear this a lot from people when I tell them that I travel by train.
This is a much less-costly alternative to making this plan possible. Why does our City leaders not want to be the hero of the hour, and implement this temporary plan? Does not make sense at all.
As to Amtrak being another program that bleeds red ink, can we not do a story here to disprove that ,if it is not true?
Clueless is probably accurate. Why do clueless people end up in leadership roles? Scary.
They need to commit to moving the Convention Center and house all of the new transportation complex in our own Union Terminal (some call the Prime Osbourn). So much cheaper and better than what we have planned. Note this is not the JTA's fault I am sure they would love to use Union Terminal if the city would get out of there.
While other cities are not afraid to make use of existing Amtrak improvement money, Jacksonville's government seems to be content to sit on the sidelines. Passenger rail will never operate in the black, so that excuse is tired. We could say the same thing for highways that require intensive subsidies from our gas taxes and other revenue sources. Passenger rail, however, can help alleviate our interstates and highways. I recently read about how dangerous it is to drive down Interstate 95. It makes sense for us to give travelers an option that does not require them to always hop in their car and drive south. Our city leaders still do not get it. I have contacted them with my thoughts and hope that others will do the same...
I just rode the Amtrak MARC line from D.C.s Union Station to BWI airport in Baltimore. It was an easy trip because both stations were in places people wanted to go nothing like our Amshak way out U.S. 1.
I have to agree with you about that. When I lived up north, I drove to New Carrollton station, parked my car, and took the Metro into Washington. That was an efficient and easy way to get into town. And Union Station was within reach of most of the Washington landmarks!
When Visiting the DC area, used the Metro.. it was awesome!
When I lived in Wisconsin, we used to drive to Milwaukee, park our car and then take Amtrak to Chicago for the day. It was quick and easy and saved us money! I can see myself and many others doing the same thing here. Imagine being able to get from Downtown Jacksonville to Downtown St. Augustine in a quick and easy trip? I think the increased mobility between the two will be a positive for both cities. Can you see the same activity occurring with our current Amshak? What person in St. Augustine wants to take a train and get dumped in some field in Northwest Jacksonville? Matter of fact, I don't even know where our Amshak is and I've lived here for 3 years! I think it is time we became more vocal. Who has friends in the media? Let's call out our city leaders for their lack of leadership. I'm sure they would love to divert attention away from pensions, budgets and prayer. ::)
I would be all over this.. As many miles as I drove to do my job for years and years , I ll gladly take the train and let someone else drive. Amen to the lack of leadership. I certainly make no claim to knowing how to run a City, but I bet I could do a better job :)
Timkin...........I know you could! Heck..........Mickey Mouse or even Sponge Bob could do better! Maybe the Amshack would make a better convention center, but the Prime needs to return to what it was originally designed to be! Ock and Company has a valid, cost effective and efficient way to expedite Amtrak's return and it makes cents! JTA and John Boy need to get with the program and see the light...............wether they believe in it or not!
Hello All,
As a Jacksonville Rail Historian I wish to take a step back. Nobody would like to see these plans be fulfilled more than me. The plans for Amtrak to return to our Jacksonville Terminal could be done with nearly no changes at all. We currently have two southbound and two northbound trains everyday. These trains have an approximate 10 minute station stop with no switching. There is no need for special tracks, only a loading platform with shed. Currently, Jacksonville hosts only one train at a time. Typically, the lengths of today’s trains are only 9 or 10 cars each. Therefore, the need for a tunnel or the relocating of Lee St viaduct for access to a train is not needed. The area between the Convention Center and FEC Railways track #30 could handle the proposed new tracks later if more trains developed, but for now we need to use what we have! The southbound trains could enter the FEC track closest to the Convention Center, load and unload then back out to Beaver St and head south, northbound trains could back in from Beaver St load and unload then head north. The only thing needed is a platform and shed from Lee St viaduct to the north end of the convention center with a place for tickets and passengers in a small area in the old Terminal Building. FEC could allow passenger trains to use this track for a fee, and if not, one new track could be added from Myrtle Ave off old tracks 28 and 29. Its better to start as needed than spend more on a future that may not happen. The reality is nothing is possible unless someone gets big bucks for development. This was developed over 100 years ago, no need to reinvent the wheel!
Thank You,
Jacksonville Terminal Railroad Museum
The proposed FEC/Amtrak service calls for trains to be split in Jacksonville. In addition, a temporary solution will still have to accommodate commuter rail as it comes online. So, we'll need a couple of sidings right off the bat.
QuoteTypically, the lengths of today’s trains are only 9 or 10 cars each. Therefore, the need for a tunnel or the relocating of Lee St viaduct for access to a train is not needed.
I believe both of these options would be potential long term (+10 years) solutions as the need for additional capacity increases.
"The temporary fix won't meet with approval unless you find a way to build it with tons and tons of unnecessary Gate concrete." quote form AC
One could fill the historic underground tunnel with Gate concrete. Like past projects, that would gain instant approval AND destroy a 100 year old part of our past all with one crank of a cement mixer truck.
I am putting on my consipracy hat. Is it possible that a person (or group) has a vested interest in keeping the Amshack on Clifford Lane? Is it possible that this person (or group) is obstructing and progress in returning passenger rail to historic terminal building? Hmmmmm....
no...not really....if that was the case, "they" would never have allowed the FDOT reports for Amtrak/FEC to even mention relocation of the Jax. station.....and "they" would never have allowed JTA and FDOT to even do preliminary planning on a downtown intermodal center that includes Amtrak.
Agreed TU, it's more our citys quadrophenic personality then any sort of plan. Frankly we ran this as a how to, and immediately everyone assumes the city is against it, fact is we don't know. There IS another plan, the official one, which trashes much of the historic fabric of the old station, and even adds a whole new station to the south end of the building. The official plan throws off the symmetry of the buildings design and frankly is going to look like a infected wart. They also "plan" on a three track station below the flood plain which could easily toss the whole place under the bus.
The only con that has gone on was convincing the FEC RY to lower it's track under the Lee street viaduct into the flood plain. This speaks of gross ignorance of our stations WET history on the part of both FEC and the JTA. The viaduct was also built "for the view" down Water Street and they had no sooner ripped out the tracks and fill down on the FEC and lowered that bridge to only clear 2 tracks when they threw the Skyway across the view and wiped it out. BRILLIANT!
No matter what is done in the downtown location the LEE STREET viaduct as we know it today is history. Sort of makes one sick when you can recall the beauty and graceful lines of the original bridge. By the way conspiracy fans? Where is the bronze dedication monument from the old bridge?
OCKLAWAHA
I am going to hold onto my conspiracy hat as long as everyone is in the talking stage. In the late 1990s, I attended a meeting at the Prime Osborn. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss plans to return Amtrak to the old Terminal building. I have routinely contacted anyone who would listen about the importance of doing this. As with everything else in this sleepy town, we have to wait things out. Or, in reality, they wait us out. As I have said before, I will believe it when I see it. Thank God for people like Ock, I just wish that there were more people like him... Too many people in this city (and state) have their heads up their posteriors...
Ock, just a minor nit in need of picking - it's not the Skyway but the Acosta ramps that block the view of the Jacksonville Terminal from downtown.
And a clarifying question about the proposed layout - would passenger access to the platform between the tracks be via a crossing near the Lee Street viaduct?
QuoteAnd a clarifying question about the proposed layout - would passenger access to the platform between the tracks be via a crossing near the Lee Street viaduct?
Yes. Since the height clearance isn't there, there is an area where additional tracks will not be able to go under the viaduct. However, the height is more than enough to be utilized as a pedestrian access point for platforms until money can be found to restore the tunnel or to construct an elevated facility.
But not via a railroad crossing, more like an end-round-run.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2010, 11:27:10 AM
Ock, just a minor nit in need of picking - it's not the Skyway but the Acosta ramps that block the view of the Jacksonville Terminal from downtown.
Actually it's both, the Skyway is west of the Acosta ramp, and the ramp does wipe out the view of the station on Water, but then the Skyway wipes out the view from Bay to the River! OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2010, 11:27:10 AM
Ock, just a minor nit in need of picking - it's not the Skyway but the Acosta ramps that block the view of the Jacksonville Terminal from downtown.
And a clarifying question about the proposed layout - would passenger access to the platform between the tracks be via a crossing near the Lee Street viaduct?
Out of sight, out of mind?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 24, 2010, 11:52:50 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2010, 11:27:10 AM
Ock, just a minor nit in need of picking - it's not the Skyway but the Acosta ramps that block the view of the Jacksonville Terminal from downtown.
Actually it's both, the Skyway is west of the Acosta ramp, and the ramp does wipe out the view of the station on Water, but then the Skyway wipes out the view from Bay to the River!
OCKLAWAHA
Touche' - I guess because the Skyway is so closely intertwined with the Acosta ramps, I just overlooked its impact on the view.
View not withstanding, the simple idea of bringing train service back to where it started out here, is invaluable! I keep hearing about increasing Jacksonville's exposure to the rest of the world (Florida included!) and here we go! Something as mundane as a train system available to all and the spin offs related would do much for increasing traffic visitor and pedestrian. Start with what we have available, at a minimal cost, and expand from there! The opportunity to expand locally and integrate a local trolley system is there, along with routes north and west! The possibilities are limited by our imagination......along with our pocketbooks!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 24, 2010, 09:21:24 AM
Agreed TU, it's more our citys quadrophenic personality then any sort of plan. Frankly we ran this as a how to, and immediately everyone assumes the city is against it, fact is we don't know. There IS another plan, the official one, which trashes much of the historic fabric of the old station, and even adds a whole new station to the south end of the building. The official plan throws off the symmetry of the buildings design and frankly is going to look like a infected wart. They also "plan" on a three track station below the flood plain which could easily toss the whole place under the bus.
The only con that has gone on was convincing the FEC RY to lower it's track under the Lee street viaduct into the flood plain. This speaks of gross ignorance of our stations WET history on the part of both FEC and the JTA. The viaduct was also built "for the view" down Water Street and they had no sooner ripped out the tracks and fill down on the FEC and lowered that bridge to only clear 2 tracks when they threw the Skyway across the view and wiped it out. BRILLIANT!
No matter what is done in the downtown location the LEE STREET viaduct as we know it today is history. Sort of makes one sick when you can recall the beauty and graceful lines of the original bridge. By the way conspiracy fans? Where is the bronze dedication monument from the old bridge?
OCKLAWAHA
* raises hand ... My guess would be ,either A: With the Old Acosta in the Ocean or B: In a landfill.
That bridge has been gone for so long I do not even remember it.. I'm sure a picture would spark my memory. So many beautiful bridges and structures have fallen in this City, just in my lifetime.
Perhaps they can modernize the tracks and beds with this. Cool video... :)
http://www.youtube.com/v/qFE8nmKpmXY
That technology (werktrein) for "work train," has got to be used primarily in Europe and from Europe; I have never seen such technology in America (though I am sure it is here in our own version or even the above version), or even knew that it existed. Gone are the days of the "chain gang" concept of constructing railroad tracks, that is, manual labor of laying the track, rocks, and the wood planks (concrete above). Wow.
"HU"
They are used in the U.S. everyday. You can see them working occasionally around Jacksonville.
This is the only way the major railroads work on track. Much better end result and the track is out of service for less time.
Quote from: heights unknown on July 25, 2010, 11:39:19 PM
That technology (werktrein) for "work train," has got to be used primarily in Europe and from Europe; I have never seen such technology in America (though I am sure it is here in our own version or even the above version), or even knew that it existed. Gone are the days of the "chain gang" concept of constructing railroad tracks, that is, manual labor of laying the track, rocks, and the wood planks (concrete above). Wow.
"HU"
+1
HU, the "Track Gang's" are not gone, but largely replaced by machines. They still function in some remote shortlines or for certain detail work that requires hands on.
The gang concept was never cruel, but it was by necessity very hard work. The idea of singing or counting a rhythm allowed the men to work in unison. When 9 pound hammers are coming down on either side of the rail it is dangerous for anyone to be "out of rhythm." Likewise with lining bars, trying to push a few thousand pounds of rail over an inch is futile unless everyone works together. Here is one of my favorite old American railroad songs...http://www.youtube.com/v/31SR9RoSDtg&hl=en_US&fs=1?color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, Isn't that Leadbelly? Oh, just saw the title bar at the top. What a fantastic musician!
Why were the track gangs called "gandy dancers"?
Quote from: Lunican on July 25, 2010, 11:47:33 PM
They are used in the U.S. everyday. You can see them working occasionally around Jacksonville.
This is the only way the major railroads work on track. Much better end result and the track is out of service for less time.
Yep, there was one working the CSX line along 17 in Avondale a few months ago, pretty cool machine.
From wikipedia:
"Gandy dancer is a slang term used for early railroad workers, especially those in the Southern United States, who maintained railroad tracks in the years before the work was done by machines. No one knows the origin of the term for certain, but it is generally thought that it was a combination of gandy, from the Chicago-based Gandy Manufacturing Company, maker of railroad tools, and the "dancing" movements of the workers using a 5 foot rod ("gandy") as a lever to keep the tracks in alignment."
http://www.youtube.com/v/025QQwTwzdU&hl=en_US&fs=1
Fantastic find, Lunican. Saw a demonstration at the Suwanee River FolK Festival one year. Was really amazing to see a bunch of scrawny, old men move tons of rails and ties back and forth as they wanted. Some of the rhythm songs were really baudy and funny.
The plan is a bit half hearted in my opinion. I hate the eyesore of the addition to the old terminal that we call the convention center. That communist block looking building needs to be removed and the old terminal needs to be 100% restored. no one even uses it anymore, they simply go to the Hyatt, where there's actually things happening. If the city really thinks it needs a convention center, it could be built from the jailhouse after they relocate the current jailhouse. Are they still planning to do that? Let's not just settle for the minimum. Sure it's a good plan, only if we move forward with the complete restoration back to it's original state, even if it takes several years for the economy to recover.
A good resource for restoring historic train stations:
http://greatamericanstations.com/
Quote from: urbaknight on July 26, 2010, 04:15:06 PM
The plan is a bit half hearted in my opinion. I hate the eyesore of the addition to the old terminal that we call the convention center. That communist block looking building needs to be removed and the old terminal needs to be 100% restored. no one even uses it anymore, they simply go to the Hyatt, where there's actually things happening. If the city really thinks it needs a convention center, it could be built from the jailhouse after they relocate the current jailhouse. Are they still planning to do that? Let's not just settle for the minimum. Sure it's a good plan, only if we move forward with the complete restoration back to it's original state, even if it takes several years for the economy to recover.
It would be nice to see the eyesore CC be removed and replaced with something resembling the Terminal.. All in good time. Lets get the terminal up and running ... Move the Convention Center to Siberia , for all I care. And in time , when we do have the money to actually replace this addition (?) go for it. What we have currently there, will get the job done for now.
Again it is only my opinion that had POCC not located there in the first place, the Terminal may have joined its former next door neighbor, the old Acosta Bridge in the ocean.
As much as it pain's me to say it, going for a 100% restoration would be overkill to the 20Th power. Do you realize the terminal was built with over 30 tracks, 29 just for passenger boarding, making it one of the largest in track miles in the WORLD, Grand Central or Penn Station not withstanding. It was designed to handle the trains of 4 mainline railroads with virtually 75% of it's traffic being switched from one train to another... Talk about Atlanta Hartsfield today? HA! 250 trains a day rolled in to the old station, and during the peak of the Great Florida Boom of the 1920's it became the busiest railroad station in the world, with named trains running in 24 sections, IE: first #1, second #1, third #1 etc... all flying green flags to indicate another section following! On the FEC trains got so late that they started rolling the clocks and bumping off days, when you hit 24 hours you were magically on time again.
One infamous story illustrates the frustration with the crowded conditions of the time. The writer said the train pulled into Jacksonville late in the evening just as he was getting ready for bed. Since the station stop was long and involved some switching, he went inside to grab some magazines. Finally returning to the train, they pulled out at 11 pm and he went fast asleep. When the morning sun hit the window he thought he would open it to see the landscape of South Florida. He didn't. Asking the conductor where the hell they were he was stunned with the answer. BAYARD!
Today, a station of 8 tracks would serve our needs including commuter rail on 4 lines, plus Amtrak. Amtrak service is going to double to the south in 2013, and I have it from a VP that it will double to the north and south again soon after. 10 tracks would give us the luxury of a private car track in the heart of downtown, something the Chamber of Commerce should be drop kicking into the JRTC plan.
Sadly the Neanderthal's at JTA seem to think we'll do just fine with 3 tracks. IDIOTS! This is what is about to happen. (http://www.bronx-terminal.com/wp-content/uploads/030907.jpg)
Do it smart Jacksonville?
Dateline: Near future
Scene: Jacksonville Terminal (or JRTC for those that would desecrate the temple)
7:45 am, St Augustine Commute train pulls in
7:47 am, Orange Park Commute train pulls in
7:49 am, Airport Commute pulls in
7:51 am, Baldwin Commute pulls in
Trouble? No place to accommodate the 2nd class Commutes.
8:00 am, the 1st class AMTRAK Silver Meteor to Miami, pull's in on track one. The train is split in half and the Tampa section is placed on track two.
result 2 tracks occupied.
8:05 am The 1st class AMTRAK Silver Star running two hours late approaches the terminal and enters track 3. The Star is further delayed because there is no track four to manage it's split.
8:15 am, Gainesville regional train arrives... but no place to go.
add to this doubling of the Amtrak schedules.
DO THE MATH JTA! DAMN! (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3523/3970876697_9db86fb976.jpg)
Or do it stupid and suffer the consequences, Orlando is watching.
I am happy to see the long overdue plans to return Amtrak to Jax Terminal.
I just hope the "temporary" doesn't become permanent. I don't trust the FDOT and JTA to pull this off as planned. Seeing their intermodal station plans sure doesn't build confidence in anything they are doing here.
Gentlemen.........I am with both of ya! FDOT & JTA have shown over and over, they lack basic planning skills plain and simple!
I would really like to see Amtrak improve its service. When I was a 9 year old boy my dad(didn't have a car) took me to St. Augustine on Sunday to attend church, visit the Fort and surrounding areas. To my knowledge, he never had to make reservations on FEC's Silver Meteor. Today, ya wanta go somewhere North or South...Ya better make a reservation far in advance if you are planning to take Amtrak(especially on the weekends). Amtrak knows it needs to improve service from Jacksonville to Miami, not only do they need to add more cars(coach and sleepers) to their trains(longer consist) but they need more trains, period. And while they are at it, it would be nice to put the Gulf Wind back on from Jacksonville to New Orleans(as I remember as a boy, I went there, too).
Thinking about this idea. Can't believe it's been over a decade and three mayoral administrations, and literally nothing has happened towards this.
JTA did win a grant to resolve the rail congestion situation through downtown. I'm not sure that work has started yet. Nevertheless, there hasn't been any aggressive movement on this because it hasn't been a top priority of any administration, DIA or JTA in quite some time. Toss it in the same bucket as doing something about the convention center and two-waying streets. We've talked about both for just as long. Only recently has there been some movement towards two-waying streets.
I suspect the problem isn't so much congestion as it is that using the old union station as how it would contribute to congestion. You'd have to move the amtrack trains up the CSX line through Moncrief yard and then back them down FEC into the Union Station. And that involves moving across a few sets of tracks back and forth. No matter how quickly that's done, you've gotta block that part off for that chunk of time to keep the passengers safe. So it messes not just with mainline movements but yard activity.
I'd love to see it happen. But I don't see it as it being a priority.
The damn CSX yard master is so busy right now, they would never let this movement happen without huge changes. Same reason why we all get stuck in San Marco. FEC releases the train to head back across the river and the CSX yard master stops him north of the bridge. He stops home because he's trying to find room and maneuver trains back and forth.
Does this resolve that?
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/31/jta-laying-groundwork-for-downtown-passenger-rail.html
https://www.news4jax.com/community/2019/06/09/jacksonville-gets-17m-grant-to-ease-train-delays-make-crossings-safer/
It seems a project is in the works. It just hasn't started yet.
That's a good question. I don't think it does. But I hope I'm wrong.
There's a lot of gray area around there. For example, FEC owns north of the bridge all the way to beaver st overpass, just short of beaver st fisheries, but CSX dispatcher and yard master control up to Jax bridge. That being said, FEC does all track related work up to the yard. CSX handles all of the signaling up to the bridge. Their signaling is a totally different interface with totally different rules. So if you wanted to change something you'd have to get that much more approval. The whole CSX yard needs updating with better technology, but that's a big ask and would be very expensive
Amtrak looks to be finalizing their plans to expanding their service; so hopefully, as a city, we're having conversations about the Prime Osborn return to transit, especially with the JRTC next door...
https://www.businessinsider.com/map-amtrak-could-build-expanded-rail-network-biden-infrastructure-plan-2021-4?amp (https://www.businessinsider.com/map-amtrak-could-build-expanded-rail-network-biden-infrastructure-plan-2021-4?amp)
(https://i.insider.com/60659ef0daf0f10018f9966d?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
Interesting that
- the New Orleans to Jacksonville is shown as "Service Suspended" and doesn't have either the "new" or "enhanced" service line colors.
- there is no "new" coastal (FEC) route from Jax to Miami
Interesting. I assume the FEC is out because that's Brightline or bust at the moment. I wonder what the new service south of Jax is? I'm still puzzled why we don't include funds included in the gas tax to complete the return of intercity rail downtown.
Definitely strange that even in 2035 they don't expect NOLA-JAX to be a thing. But even then, it's the only part of the entire map that lists "service suspended." Is there still track work that would need to be competed for that?
It seems they're just choosing not to compete on the FEC, which I guess makes sense if the trains are likely going to be slower anyway. Although, I think I've heard Brightline say they have "exclusive rights to passenger service," so maybe it's a legal thing too.
My guess when it comes to new service is some kind of special intercity branding, like in the Midwest or the Surfliner in California. Trains that only run between the listed cities, vs as part of the national network. Irony is that they might end up with basically the same rolling stock as Brightline, Chargers pulling Venture coaches. Shame "SunRail" got taken by a commuter service, I still think it'd be a great name for an intrastate service.
I think the Jax NOLA thing may have something to do with he condition of that section of track.
I mean, doesn't CSX use that track? If so then I bet that was fixed REALLY quickly after Katrina in 2005. There has to be more to it.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 01, 2021, 01:04:17 PM
Interesting. I assume the FEC is out because that's Brightline or bust at the moment. I wonder what the new service south of Jax is? I'm still puzzled why we don't include funds included in the gas tax to complete the return of intercity rail downtown.
The new service south of Jax does puzzle me. I would assume it was the Sunset Limited if it wasn't for the service suspended section.
Quote from: Steve on April 01, 2021, 03:37:40 PM
I mean, doesn't CSX use that track? If so then I bet that was fixed REALLY quickly after Katrina in 2005. There has to be more to it.
Agreed. Its not like they are up against any strong air service on that route either, its a pretty long drive and as far as I know there isn't any bus service?
Quote from: Steve on April 01, 2021, 03:37:40 PM
I mean, doesn't CSX use that track? If so then I bet that was fixed REALLY quickly after Katrina in 2005. There has to be more to it.
CSX sold the track between Baldwin and Pensacola to a class III shortline a couple of years ago. That probably doesn't bode well for long term maintenance of the line as it's like 400 miles long. Obviously they didn't see the value in it.
Quote from: acme54321 on April 01, 2021, 06:47:57 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 01, 2021, 03:37:40 PM
I mean, doesn't CSX use that track? If so then I bet that was fixed REALLY quickly after Katrina in 2005. There has to be more to it.
CSX sold the track between Baldwin and Pensacola to a class III shortline a couple of years ago. That probably doesn't bode well for long term maintenance of the line as it's like 400 miles long. Obviously they didn't see the value in it.
I can personally confirm that the track is in horrible condition. FEC was going to buy it until they saw the condition, some of the bridges need major renovations. Also the current owners wanted to make it all dark territory, and if that has happened Amtrak won't be able to use it. This line needs one of the Class 1s to buy it, or Someone like Grupo.
^ Seeing as a Class I just sold it, what are the odds of that happening?
Challenge really seems to be that unless the state, or Brightline, or somehow another Class I swooped out of nowhere to take it over and spend millions rehabbing it for passenger service, there's not much to be done. In which case would explain why even the billion-dollar Amtrak plan dismisses it as "suspended."