Metro Jacksonville

This WJXT story points to "employee accessibility" and it's cost to Downtown employers as a reason big companies are moving on.

Wasn't that the Skyway's job?  This has nothing to do with ties to residential areas.  The Skyway's #1 stated purpose was to connect accessible parking lots to downtown.  Along with Rosa Parks for buses, it does offer that to some degree.  So, why is it not working?  I'll keep my powder dry while others chime in for now.  ;D

QuoteDowntown Jacksonville Becoming Vacant
Large Companies Moving Because Area Doesn't Fit Their Bottom Line

POSTED: Friday, June 18, 2010
UPDATED: 5:10 pm EDT June 18, 2010
St. Johns River - downtown Jacksonville
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- It is supposed to be the heartbeat of a city, the central spot for movers and shakers. Instead, those folks are moving out of downtown Jacksonville.

"We think this is a critical time in downtown," said Terry Lorince, of Downtown Vision, Inc. "We are concerned about the vacancy rates."

Nearly one-quarter of the urban core is vacant, and it's only getting worse, especially on the Northbank.

Two large companies, Rayonier and Adecco, are moving out, and Life of the South has said it is seriously considering leaving.

If the company goes, it will leave nearly 200,000 square feet of empty space and will take 400 employees with it.

"We have a lot of small businesses that thrive on those towers," said Valerie Stanley, of Wally Dogz. "If they phase out, it'll be a problem."

Business is why those companies are moving out. They said downtown doesn't fit their bottom line.

Downtown visitors may only need to feed the meter a quarter to park, but large companies like Adecco spend $500,000 just for their employees to park.

The companies said even moving across the river makes more sense. Buildings there offer more floor space, and they're more accessible to employees.

Nearly every bare window front tells the story, and downtown leaders are looking to change it.

"Having a vibrant employment base is critical to the success of any downtown," Lorince said.

Lorince said the city is looking into more economic incentives for businesses locating in the core.

Downtown Vision has been planning events and stepping up the streetscape.

Stanley just hopes it works, because she said her business can't afford to have a ghost town.

"I rely heavily on walking traffic," Stanley said. "If that goes, my business will go downhill."

http://www.news4jax.com/news/23955671/detail.html

After reading this I cant for the life me understand why there is sprawl in this city. Hmmmm....

I don't know how you find only the skyway to throw under the bus for this situation.  This is clearly a result of a city who has turned its back to the needs of downtown the businesses invested in it.  Jacksonville does a lot of talking but talking is cheap.  With that said, new leadership and a change in how the thing is operated, could serve as part of the solution to some the issues hampering downtown.  

QuoteLorince said the city is looking into more economic incentives for businesses locating in the core.

Downtown Vision has been planning events and stepping up the streetscape.

LOL, incentives and streetscapes?  I can save DVI and the city a lot of money by telling you now that this isn't going to work.  These places continue to bring up parking issues and we expect that landscaping the sidewalks will help their profitability?  Jacksonville is going to have to start investing in fixed mass transit to help level the playing field between the urban core and suburbs.  Nearly every other major city has figured this out.  However, we seem intent to be pulled kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2010, 07:30:34 PM
I don't know how you find only the skyway to throw under the bus for this situation.  This is clearly a result of a city who has turned its back to the needs of downtown the businesses invested in it.  Jacksonville does a lot of talking but talking is cheap.  With that said, new leadership and a change in how the thing is operated, could serve as part of the solution to some the issues hampering downtown.  

Lake, I took from the article that the crux of the issue was employee accessibility, specifically, cost and ease of parking access.  Given that this was the  charge of the Skyway, I thought it appropriate to note its failure to solve this problem to the satisfaction of downtown employers.  I left the door open for more conversation.  Feel free to add your perspective.

Here is my perspective.

Problem

Downtown is overrated and held back by toxic public policies.  It will continue to decline until the public sector changes policy to help level the playing field between the CBD and burbs.

Problem #2

Company A says:

QuoteDowntown visitors may only need to feed the meter a quarter to park, but large companies like Adecco spend $500,000 just for their employees to park.

DVI solution:

QuoteLorince said the city is looking into more economic incentives for businesses locating in the core. Downtown Vision has been planning events and stepping up the streetscape.

??? What does this have to do with the situation described above?  Unless we're going to pave over DT with surface parking lots or subsidize every company's parking, we're going to have to invest in real mass transit solutions.

Solutions

Dust off some of the old mass transit and parking concepts for downtown and implement them.  This would include running "high frequency and reliable" transit service between outlying parking lots.  The skyway in its current state is anything but reliable for these companies.  Instead of giving every single company incentives to lower their parking costs, maybe we should invest in a real transit system that helps keep existing companies, connects neighborhoods and attracts additional economic development at the same time.

Pull out the parking meters.

Lake, why is it we must have transit downtown in order to overcome lower rents in the sprawl? What does mass transit have to do with lower rents in the suburbs? After all, basic business 101 would dictate that if it costs me less to ircorporate in the suburbs, why would I ever come downtown?

No downtown, MUST lower its rent rates to become competitive with the southside and sprawl areas. If someone can get new at less than the old downtown, why stay downtown?

Forget mass transit for the moment, you need tenants before mass transit can work.

Quote from: mtraininjax on June 20, 2010, 08:30:34 PM
Lake, why is it we must have transit downtown in order to overcome lower rents in the sprawl? What does mass transit have to do with lower rents in the suburbs?

The article mentions parking costs. The need for urban parking and mass transit go hand in hand.

QuoteAfter all, basic business 101 would dictate that if it costs me less to incorporate in the suburbs, why would I ever come downtown?

Quality of Life of a vibrant urban alternative offers several advantages to suburban facilities.  Unfortunately, we don't have that urban environment in place due to a lack of vision and refusal to address the real issues hampering downtown.

QuoteNo downtown, MUST lower its rent rates to become competitive with the southside and sprawl areas.

That's unrealistic if you don't address the parking situation.  Structured parking is significantly more expensive than surface parking.  What I'm suggesting is lowering rates by unbundling the parking costs.  Unbundling parking is a popular TDM strategy used in more cosmopolitan regions of this country.

QuoteIf someone can get new at less than the old downtown, why stay downtown?

Forget mass transit for the moment, you need tenants before mass transit can work.

We already have tenants, residents and businesses in the urban core.  From a holistic view, mass transit can help keep them, improve connectivity and attract more.  Consider this killing multiple birds with one stone.

MTrain I know we talk a lot about transit but it is more about what has worked and is working in other urban cores.  Transit is a major one that has been demonstrated on this site with a preponderance of evidence and examples to work.

Some of the quality of life advantages are in place in down town the riverwalk, the Landing and the Nexus of our major interstates.

I just hope that everything isn't just whatever has the lowest rent will be fine for our square building and cubicles.

I wonder if companies are abandoning downtowns of cities like Denver, Austin, Phoenix, Charlotte, Salt Lake City and San Diego for their burbs?  If not, what are they doing to successfully compete against their sprawling cheaper suburbs?  Whatever it is, we ought to follow suit instead of recreating the wheel.

Here are the facts...

Downtown Jax. - $24/sf + parking
Southside - $20/sf w/ "free" parking

If the majority of your employees live at the beach, in Mandarin, or in St. Johns County, which would you choose?

And accessibility to downtown from these locations is about to get harder...FDOT plans to start major reconstruction on I-95 from JTB up in the next few years.

If anyone has ideas, I'm all ears...because my company is in the midst of making this type of decision

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 20, 2010, 09:36:30 PM
If anyone has ideas, I'm all ears...because my company is in the midst of making this type of decision

No one is explaining why employers and their employees are not using the Skyway?  Tufsu, how about it?  Why isn't that the "great equalizer" it was supposed to be?  I am all ears!  ;)

^I've already told you why its ineffective.  Its unreliable in its current state.  That's about all you need to know.  

As for tufsu1's question, I don't think Jacksonville is experiencing anything that hasn't taken place in other cities before.  My advice for DVI, JEDC or whoever, would be to study what has and has not worked in peer communities.  Avoid the failures and attempt to implement the successful policies locally.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 20, 2010, 09:36:30 PM
Here are the facts...

Downtown Jax. - $24/sf + parking
Southside - $20/sf w/ "free" parking.....

If anyone has ideas, I'm all ears...because my company is in the midst of making this type of decision

TDM strategies. Something similar to what Baptist Medical plans to do on a much larger holistic level.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2010, 10:10:23 PM
^I've already told you why its ineffective.  Its unreliable in its current state.  That's about all you need to know.  

Lake, has the Skyway been unreliable from Day 1, in your view?  Or, is this a more recent phenomenon?

Why do proponents of expansion and additional investment in operating the Skyway think it will be any more reliable than it is now?

If making the Skyway reliable would encourage people to use it and this would keep companies downtown, then why aren't companies demanding this rather than going through the upheaval and expense of moving?  Could it be companies don't see the value to the Skyway, even if "enhanced"?  Why isn't JTA/COJ offering this "solution"?  Could it be they also don't see the Skyway as a "fix"?

Why should citizens feel confident in expanding the Skyway or buses or adding streetcars, etc. when there appears to be no confidence or interest from emplyoyers, employees, developers/landlords/property owners, JTA, or the COJ, based on use and support, in the existing Skyway and its "parking to employer" mission?  In other words, is the Skyway giving mass transit a black eye in Jax?

These are the questions I keep asking as I think the answers to them say much about the Skyway and its negative impact on mass transit and downtown Jax.

Quote from: stjr on June 20, 2010, 10:21:23 PM
Lake, has the Skyway been unreliable from Day 1, in your view?  Or, is this a more recent phenomenon?

Its been unreliable since Day 1.  However, the recent service cuts have made it more unreliable.

QuoteWhy do proponents of expansion and additional investment in operating the Skyway think it will be any more reliable than it is now?

I'm not a proponent of expansion without first investing in the regional fixed system that was originally intended to feed it riders.  However, I do believe that it can be better utilized to make it more reliable than it has ever been.  I've mentioned several options for better utilization in just about every thread that pops up about the skyway.

QuoteIf making the Skyway reliable would encourage people to use it and this would keep companies downtown, then why aren't companies demanding this rather than going through the upheaval and expense of moving?

JTA and our local government should be the ones to lead the way with public investment.  The majority of companies aren't the civic type and are more concerned about what they specialize in and their profitability.  If the numbers don't work, they simply vote with their feet.  

QuoteCould it be companies don't see the value to the Skyway, even if "enhanced"?  Why isn't JTA/COJ offering this "solution"?  Could it be they also don't see the Skyway as a "fix"?

JTA/COJ isn't offering any solution other than planting trees.  I don't think their position has anything to do with the skyway, PCT or bus. DT isn't a real priority.

QuoteWhy should citizens feel confident in expanding the Skyway or buses or adding streetcars, etc. when there appears to be no confidence or interest from emplyoyers, employees, JTA, or the COJ, based on use and support, in the existing Skyway and its "parking to employer" mission?  In other words, is the Skyway giving mass transit a black eye in Jax?

Imo, Jacksonville's leaders give it a black eye.  I just don't see what any of this has to do with the skyway.  We have a toxic downtown that suffers from an assortment of defects.  Btw, the citizens are the people forcing JTA to talk streetcars and commuter rail.  Without us residents demanding better mobility options, we would be further behind than what we are right now.

QuoteThese are the questions I keep asking as I think the answers to them say much about the Skyway and its negative impact on mass transit and downtown Jax.

I think you're on a planet by yourself on this one.  I just don't see what the skyway has to do with Adecco paying $500k for parking or downtown's leasing rates being higher than the burbs.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2010, 10:34:16 PM

QuoteThese are the questions I keep asking as I think the answers to them say much about the Skyway and its negative impact on mass transit and downtown Jax.

I think you're on a planet by yourself on this one.  I just do see what the skyway has to do with Adecco paying $500k for parking or downtown's leasing rates being higher than the burbs.

Lake, the Skyway was sold as a downtown economic development tool.  Adecco and others leaving downtown over the issue of "employee accessibility" is about as on point to downtown mass transit as it gets.  For Jax, that's the Skyway and buses.

The Skyway was sold as the jobs site connection for auto commuters which is likely what most of these companies employ.  It looks to me like there is, thus, a direct connection between the success/failure of the Skyway and what these companies claim is a reason to leave downtown.  None of them cited the Riverwalk, the Landing, restaurants, housing, or any of the other factors that we here feel will create a holistic downtown.  They are interested in the "now" and what we have "now" is the Skyway.

The elephant in the room, I have always believed, is that employees don't want to ride the Skyway from a parking garage or lot.  It's just not user friendly.  If employees won't ride it from a garage, why should anyone think commuters will connect to it from cars, buses, and streetcars, or use it in connection with urban residential development?

To conclude, I think I am on the right planet:  "Down to Earth", not "Pie in the Sky"!  :D

Quote from: stjr on June 20, 2010, 10:46:06 PM
Lake, the Skyway was sold as a downtown economic development tool.  Adecco and others leaving downtown over the issue of "employee accessibility" is about as on point to downtown mass transit as it gets.  For Jax, that's the Skyway and buses.

It seems like we've been over this a thousand times before.  An unreliable transit service does no one any good.  It really doesn't matter how something is sold if it doesn't work.  Skyway, streetcar, bus, commuter rail, jitney....it just doesn't matter.

QuoteThe Skyway was sold as the jobs site connection for auto commuters which is likely what most of these companies employ.  It looks to me like there is, thus, a direct connection between the success/failure of the Skyway and what these companies claim is a reason to leave downtown.  None of them cited the Riverwalk, the Landing, restaurants, housing, or any of the other factors that we here feel will create a holistic downtown.

The answer is one you don't want to accept.  That short term answer is to find a way to better run and utilize your existing mass transit operations.  Unfortunately for you, the skyway is a part of the existing transit network.

QuoteThey are interested in the "now" and what we have "now" is the Skyway.

So let's find a way to better utilize it in the short term while we continue to work on long term solutions.

QuoteThe elephant in the room, I have always believed, is that employees don't want to ride the Skyway from a parking garage.  It's just not user friendly.

The true elephant in the room is your comment that I put in bold.  To get better utilization out of it, it has to become "user friendly" or in other words, "reliable."

QuoteIf employees won't ride it from a garage, why should anyone think commuters will connect to it from cars, buses, and streetcars, or use it in connection with urban residential development?

Its all about being "reliable" and "user friendly."  One of these days we should get together and ride the thing together.  I'm sure the conversation will be a good one.

QuoteTo conclude, I think I am on the right planet:  "Down to Earth", not "Pie in the Sky"!  :D[/b]

Well, since we're in the same spot, lets talk about utilizing short term improvements to help alleviate the problems facing downtown now.

QuoteThat short term answer is to find a way to better run and utilize your existing mass transit operations.  Unfortunately for you, the skyway is a part of the existing transit network.

QuoteSo let's find a way to better utilize it in the short term while we continue to work on long term solutions.

QuoteIts all about being "reliable" and "user friendly."

OK, to pick up on Ock's previous Skyway points, it's already there and can be brought up to a "reliable and user friendly" level (not to be confused with an expansion, mind you) with minimal additional investment.  So, why don't you, Ock, and Stephen march into JTA, JEDC, and City Hall and tell them to fix these "easy" things that Ock says can be done to make it more "reliable and user friendly".  With companies citing this as a reason for moving from downtown, they should all be willing to make the "minor" investment in what is there now to bring it to the desired level and stabilize at least the status quo downtown.

I will be interested to hear what response you get.

QuoteIts been unreliable since Day 1. 

Interesting comment, Lake.

Quote from: stjr on June 20, 2010, 11:10:35 PM

OK, to pick up on Ock's previous Skyway points, it's already there and can be brought up to a "reliable and user friendly" level (not to be confused with an expansion, mind you) with minimal additional investment.  So, why don't you, Ock, and Stephen march into JTA, JEDC, and City Hall and tell them to fix these "easy" things that Ock says can be done to make it more "reliable and user friendly".  With companies citing this as a reason for moving from downtown, they should all be willing to make the "minor" investment in what is there now to bring it to the desired level and stabilize at least the status quo downtown.

I will be interested to hear what response you get.[/b]

Exactly what we've been doing for the last 5 years...

Recent discoveries we've made include such gems as not only was the Skyway never completed, it wasn't even built to conceptual plans, nor did it meet the "requirements" set forth by the City in such broad area's as "Stations".  As Lake says, it's not the Skyway that has failed us, rather it is the JTA and the COJ that has failed both downtown and the Skyway.  We keep expecting the "SANTA FE" but we have only made a "LIONEL" investment in money or methods...

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteTen years later, none of that is fixed yet, and the downtown is emptying out.

You simply cannot tell people.

To date the DVI has received more than 15 million dollars to help stabilize downtown.

Do you have any clue what me and John Allen could have done with that much money?  And forget about all the joint projects that got funded by the other agencies.

Very poignant, Stephen.  I want to make an extensive post about the article, but need to follow up on something first.

Has DVI implemented a single original idea in it's 10 year run that has made a positive impact on downtown, and just what the hell did they do with our $15 million?

Video from WJXT

http://www.news4jax.com/video/23958177/ (http://www.news4jax.com/video/23958177/) (You have to watch the 15 second mattress commercial first.)

To me, this is just one more glaring example of the waste,corruption and Nifty Fifty cracking all of us! If DVI has spent 15 Million Dollars to this point, looking at downtown......just one more example of money down the tubes! I don't think we will get much of anything happening until the current administration is gone, JTA has had everyone removed from the top level, so-called management, and we get the chance to regroup and start over! There is just too much of the GOB Network still running everything and it shows.......there needs to be a unifying group or individual to take lead and all of these issues  have to be addressed at one single time or we are all hoisted and hung out to dry! We have some time till the next election and I hope that some of the 10 plus Mayoral Candidates start engaging the citizens and preparing to hit the ground running!

Quote from: stjr on June 20, 2010, 11:10:35 PM
OK, to pick up on Ock's previous Skyway points, it's already there and can be brought up to a "reliable and user friendly" level (not to be confused with an expansion, mind you) with minimal additional investment.  So, why don't you, Ock, and Stephen march into JTA, JEDC, and City Hall and tell them to fix these "easy" things that Ock says can be done to make it more "reliable and user friendly".  With companies citing this as a reason for moving from downtown, they should all be willing to make the "minor" investment in what is there now to bring it to the desired level and stabilize at least the status quo downtown.

I will be interested to hear what response you get.[/b]

We have, right along with changing the parking policies, not building the Main Street pocket park, stopping BRT, pushing the FEC/Amtrak project, investing in streetcars, commuter rail and adding multimodal alternatives to road-only projects.  In this town, you always get an initial cold shoulder from leadership.  If you hit them over the head with enough logic, time and time again, sometimes they come around (ex. Landing parking, commuter rail studies and elimination of BRT from Adams Street, etc.).

QuoteIf you hit them over the head with enough logic, time and time again, sometimes they come around

Keep hitting em Lake... :)

what is the objective of the proposed downtown parking overlay?

Quote
l Type and Number:  Ordinance 2010-449

Sponsor:  Council President at the Request of the Mayor

Date of Introduction:  June 8, 2010

Committee(s) of Reference:  LUZ

Date of Analysis:  June 10, 2010

Type of Action:  Ordinance Code Amendment

Bill Summary:  This bill amends Section 656.361.16, Ordinance Code, to provide that the downtown off-street parking overlay shall not be subject to the requirements of the parking lot landscaping matrix.  Section 656.604 is amended to state that there shall be no maximum number of off-street parking spaces for single-family dwellings.  Dental offices or clinics are to have 3 (rather than 4) spaces for each 1,000 square feet of gross floor area.  Provisions for industrial, wholesale, warehouse, storage, and similar uses are revised to allow calculation of parking ratios for the off-street parking overlay based upon 1 space for each 5,000 square feet of gross floor area, or 1 per employee on the peak shift, whichever is greater.  It is required that professional and business office uses and business, commercial, or personal services establishments meet or exceed the landscaping requirements contained in the parking lot landscaping matrix.  The landscaping requirements of Chapter 656, Part 12, relative to vehicular use area interior landscaping, perimeter landscaping adjacent to streets, and buffer standards relating to uncomplimentary land uses and zoning are revised to specify provisions and exceptions for professional and business office uses and business, commercial, or personal services establishments.  Section 656.1601 is amended to add definitions for the terms “pervious parking” and “pervious paving materials.”  The Figure B, parking lot landscaping matrix, in Section 656.607 is replaced.

Background Information:  Information on file indicates that the Planning and Development Dept. requested these changes.

Policy Impact Area:  Planning and Development; Zoning Code; Parking Requirements; Landscaping

Fiscal Impact:  Undetermined

Analyst:  Campbell

One thing that DT Jax has had going for it, even though the problems were obvious, was the large employment base.  Now even that is threatened by the lack of foresight, attention and planning to bring DT back, as so many other cities have done.

This really isn't a 'new' problem, high office vacancy has been around for well over two decades. It has been >15% for as long as I can remember.  DT Lease rates are already very low.  Charlotte's rates exceed $32 a foot.  

The DT rates will ALWAYS be higher than Suburban, because the costs of highways is not paid by the businesses that build out there.  The high cost of DT land and garages will always keep DT rates above Southside ones.  

The Charlotte business community peer pressures 'civic mindedness' that helps keep the DT office market growing.  You can't be considered a 'big dog' there unless you are DT.  The business culture is totally different in JAX.  There is no consideration other than the 'bottom line'.    

QuoteTwo large companies, Rayonier and Adecco, are moving out, and Life of the South has said it is seriously considering leaving.

For the record, Rayonier is moving to Riverplace Tower on the southbank, not to the burbs.  The primary driver there was office rental rates, not necessarily parking.  Rayonier's CEO was actually quite dedicated to keeping the company downtown, just not necessarily on the northbank.

The one thing that will help turn Downtown is commuter rail....connect the burbs to Downtown!!!!

So, there is a downtown parking overlay already in effect downtown?

This may be a dumb question, but why are there parking meters downtown?  

While I'm glad Rayonier is staying DT, to be honest the Southbank is a 'middle ground' between DT and the suburbs.  It is largely a urban suburban office park. Albeit, it has the potential to morph into a more urban environment.

Quote from: stephendare on June 21, 2010, 08:42:43 AM
and parking.  there are private shuttle busses and adjacent parking.  Plus, because there are not parking nazis driving away all other customers, there are actually great places for lunch on the southbank.

Bob Carle, the Parking Commissioner inadvertently became the most important man in the downtown.  In order to preserve his department, we sacrificed the taxes and energy of more than a hundred businesses and thousands of employees over the past five years.

Way to go Bob!

Most of his predecessors would have lightened up on the enforcement or gave better customer training to the goobs on the street.

Well the Parking Commission sure showed them!

Is anything to reverse this trend in play?  And is Adecco actually moving out?  I thought it was likely to happen at the end of the Modis lease in 2011 but not definite.

Good list Stephen.

great ideas, simple, easy to implement.

Sorry I was unclear--what I meant was, has the city taken any positive steps toward implementing those ideas?  (Besides the limited trial run of smart meters and the two-way segment of Bay?)

^No, not anything fast enough to keep companies from leaving in the short term. 

Quote4.  Stop closing off all the streets on Game Days.

Only thing I don't agree with.  John Q Gameday Public has adamently voiced their opinions against this.  John Q loves the easy access into/out of the stadium district. 

Actually, I don't think they're WALKING anywhere, or they'd have a better grasp of the transportation problems in this city.

I truly can see your point.  I decided to only tailgate at two games this year, specifically to take advantage of 'tailgating' at the Landing before and after the games so I could take either the Hooters boat or the River Taxi to the game.  It actually saved me quite a bit of money over the normal $40 parking, plus bringing food to grill and beer to drink.  Having a post-game pizza and Bold City brew while watching 4pm games in the AC at Chicago Pizza was cheaper and more fun than my normal game day experience... but, imo the Landing and other businesses need to do a better job giving an incentive to come downtown after the game.  Most gameday patrons have spent 6 hours already in and around the stadium and have also thrown down some good coin.  There's not too much incentive to stay downtown after already spending 6 hours and what can easily be a hundred bucks or more at the game.

Hooters does a free boat ride back/forth if you spend at least $10 pre-game... and London Bridge has a shuttle service(also a $10 minimum I believe).  But, that's really it.  Why else would you want to stay downtown after the game?  I ask that honestly.  I only stay downtown after a game b/c I want to stay DOWNTOWN.  I could easily choose to go home, or go to a busier sports bar/grille elsewhere that have specials tailored to football patrons.

^good point

Quote from: fsujax on June 21, 2010, 08:40:53 AM
The one thing that will help turn Downtown is commuter rail....connect the burbs to Downtown!!!!

exactly....the Skyway only works once you're already downtown....commuter rail will be extremeley important with the I-95 reconstruction

Lunch meter? WTF? This parking meter placement just struck me as a bit odd. This was taken at the corner of Forsyth and Ocean.

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1332/4721399058_25f36722dd_b.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 21, 2010, 11:32:26 AM

Quote from: fsujax on June 21, 2010, 08:40:53 AM
The one thing that will help turn Downtown is commuter rail....connect the burbs to Downtown!!!!

exactly....the Skyway only works once you're already downtown....commuter rail will be extremeley important with the I-95 reconstruction

^No thanks.  We'll just plant some more flowers on the sidewalks, people will marvel at their beauty and not notice the extra parking bill they're forced to pay for being located in a dead downtown environment. ;)

In the 1980's, William Whyte did a study of corporations leaving NYC downtown for suburban locations. He concluded the principal determinants of corporations abandoning downtown were lower taxes and where CEO's homes were located; not lower rent/free parking as claimed by the businesses. Once you looked at costs holistically, for example, increased traffic miles driven for all commuting employees (only high-salaried employees lived near the new location and there were costs for those employees who decided to move closer to the new location), short lunchtime trips previously accomplished by walking/public transit, severance costs for employees dependent on public transit who couldn't make the move, increased energy costs (suburban park energy costs are more per employee than downtown locations), and so on, the cost of the suburban location was equal to or greater than the downtown location in the short term and much greater over the long term as long as local taxes on downtown businesses weren't exorbitant. This study was 30 years ago and this country and its businesses are still plagued by the kind of tunnel vision that leads to these decisions where someone 'solves' one problem (rent/parking), they are rewarded (promotion, increased salary, etc) and they depart that company before the costs/problems associated with the move really emerge or they stay & BS a bad decision (but the rent is $2/sq lower)... all because everyone thought short-term and didn't do the necessary due diligence of what such a move really meant for the company and its employees. Whyte was also able to demonstrate that such businesses had a harder time retaining employees compared to those in downtown locations, which led to all sorts of additional costs (higher turnover, more training costs, expansion of administrative and human resources costs, advertising, etc.), which causes its own problems because HR departments are cancerous leeches on business, always draining more and more money and never making any profit for the business. Of course, Jacksonville's urban/density pattern is different from NYC but the lessons are still applicable.

However, it is just not businesses that suffer from this tunnel vision. Our entire society is affected by it, as evidenced by the arguments and counter-arguments in this thread (more public transit but JAX density can't financially support it, 'magical' free parking at the wave of a hand by government, impose local city taxes, see above) which are driven by a kind of echo-chamber tunnel vision which is knee-deep in political agendas. For example, Milt Hays wrote an article about Richard Florida's book on MetroJacksonville.com, which apparently fails to understand the underlying assumptions of Florida's vision is an extreme extrapolation of good, old-fashioned origin & destination traffic modeling fallacies (where A WHOLE LOT MORE of the same is masquerading as change). It is profoundly depressing that we, as a country, have trapped ourselves in this box and so many are so clueless that they are (loudly) participating in an echo chamber debate where no one is offering real solutions but... what was it Martin Sheen said in Apocalypse Now, "we cut 'em in half with a machine gun and give 'em a Band-Aid", that's the level of this debate. I encourage you ALL to escape the box you're trapped in before it's too late (actually it probably already is, going to take decades to clean up this Baby Boomer, post-WWII mess... if ever).

We need a new humanism for our buildings, neighborhoods and cities, designed for use by people (not cars), where the emphasis is on long-term prosperity for most rather than short-term gain for the few. I apologize, this thread has generated a lots of thoughts in my head and I'm not sure I presented them in the most coherent fashion.

FYI... Whyte was also able to demonstrate that businesses that left downtown for the suburbs were 50% more likely to fail over the long-term (5 or 10 years, don't remember which) than those that stayed in downtown, which suggested the relocation was a band-aid to avoid the larger problem (competitiveness, etc.).

Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

Quotemore public transit but JAX density can't financially support it

What are you basing this theory on?  Regardless of if we're talking about roads or rail, infrastructure builds development, not the other way around.  Jax is a prime example of this.  The denser neighborhoods typically happen to be streetcar suburbs and the lower density areas were designed primarily for automobile movement.  If you want density, you provide the type of infrastructure that stimulates that style of development pattern.  Feel free to take a look at the aerials from last Friday's article for visual examples.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-before-after-rail-spurs-economic-development

Quote from: trigger on June 21, 2010, 12:15:23 PM
Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

Considering several suburban low density sprawlers have had ridership success with new systems (ex. Houston, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Charlotte, etc.), I find it funny that people still run around with this easily proven false theory today.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2010, 12:17:34 PM

Quote from: trigger on June 21, 2010, 12:15:23 PM
Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

This is the answer....we need to start calling it InTown Jax....these are the areas where the creative class (see Richard Florida) want to be....and the argument to companies is these are your future employees!

Its also an area where frequent reliable mass transit and other alternative mobility options will be required to create the vibrant urban core atmosphere everyone claims to want.

Does anyone happen to know what the metering situation is in cities such as Nashville, Indianapolis, Charlotte, Orlando?

I don't think downtown Norfolk has meters but I could be wrong.  I've always been a garage parker there.

They all have on-street smart meters (or meters that accept more than quarters) but I don't think the on-street meter situation is going to really impact the parking costs for these major companies.  When you employ thousands of people in a suburban city with unreliable mass transit, you're going to need places for bulk "dedicated" parking.  Baptist plans to invest thousands annually for a shuttle service and 200 spaces at the Kings Avenue garage to deal with their parking issues.  

DVI, JEDC and JTA need to get together and flesh out this type of TDM strategy for the entire DT core.  I imagine money could be saved and transit ridership would significantly increase if all the cash these companies spend on parking/transportation are put into developing a unified parking/mass transit solution for the entire business district.

Quote from: stephendare on June 21, 2010, 01:06:24 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 21, 2010, 12:44:51 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2010, 12:17:34 PM

Quote from: trigger on June 21, 2010, 12:15:23 PM
Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

This is the answer....we need to start calling it InTown Jax....these are the areas where the creative class (see Richard Florida) want to be....and the argument to companies is these are your future employees!

Well its part of the answer.  If the creative class cant park without paying effing stupid fines and also cant access reliable mass transit, then we wont live there for more than one lease cycle.

You have to fix the simple things first.

I know you have this fixation with the meters, but they are a very smal part of the bigger picture....notice I encompassed several neighborhoods into InTown Jax....there are no meters in Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield currently...and there are people who live downtown (both northbank and southbank)...almost everyone has off-street parking.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 21, 2010, 12:44:51 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2010, 12:17:34 PM

Quote from: trigger on June 21, 2010, 12:15:23 PM
Also, we have got to stop thinking of the North Bank as 'downtown'. Downtown in Jacksonville incorporates the north and south bank, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and St. Nicholas. Otherwise, it's just more tunnel-vision thinking. A neighborhood is nothing without its context, same for a downtown.

I agree!

This is the answer....we need to start calling it InTown Jax....these are the areas where the creative class (see Richard Florida) want to be....and the argument to companies is these are your future employees!

+1

Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2010, 02:45:06 PM
DVI, JEDC and JTA need to get together and flesh out this type of TDM strategy for the entire DT core.  I imagine money could be saved and transit ridership would significantly increase if all the cash these companies spend on parking/transportation are put into developing a unified parking/mass transit solution for the entire business district.

How do you rate the odds that this will actually happen, and the timeliness of response?

QuoteHow do you rate the odds that this will actually happen

Since they still seem to fight that transit is a critical element of vibrant urbanism, I'd say 1 out of a couple of billion. 

Quoteand the timeliness of response?

I'm hoping next year's election turns the apple cart upside down.  I don't expect much to change with the Peyton administration in office so expect to see a few of these companies and others abandon downtown.

That's what I was afraid of.  Thank goodness there's an abundance of candidates in the next election who seem to understand the situation, but I hate how solutions have been delayed or situations made worse in recent years.

The cities were built by rail and developed around the spread of rail lines over a hundred years ago, when populations were smaller and less dense than at any time in the second half of the 20th century.

Costs were less then, the personal and public tax/debt burden was less then, we weren't a litigated society then or possessed draconian environmental protection regulations then and the systems touted on this website of "successful" low density rail transit are heavily subsidized by taxpayer money. I know the St. Louis system is heavily subsidized and therefore, not economically self-sufficient though it possesses very high ridership numbers. Even European urban transit systems are not self-sufficient and they have ALL of the spatial and economic benefits we do not have (except for a few locations, Chicago, NYC, etc.) which means the taxpayer subsidy is prohibitive in post-WWII American cities. Not to mention we still don't have the political will to properly build these systems (for example, these systems are plagued with taking the easy way out decisions on securing right-of-way) which results in train stations in the middle of nowhere (see St. Louis north side station stops). Rail is the long-term answer but it is NOT a magic bullet and if not designed correctly it can have a detrimental effect on neighborhoods (again, see interstate highway system, which some US neighborhoods are ONLY now recovering from short-sighted design decisions made 40 years ago and some still have not, see East St. Louis).

^ Yes rail is hard to do when compared to all those self sufficient revenue producing roads that have done so well curbing sprawl.

Quote from: trigger on June 21, 2010, 03:43:33 PM
The cities were built by rail and developed around the spread of rail lines over a hundred years ago, when populations were smaller and less dense than at any time in the second half of the 20th century.

Costs were less then, the personal and public tax/debt burden was less then, we weren't a litigated society then or possessed draconian environmental protection regulations then and the systems touted on this website of "successful" low density rail transit are heavily subsidized by taxpayer money.

Walkable communities are still built by pedestrian oriented infrastructure projects today.  Just look at the evolution of Portland, Denver and San Diego over the last 30 years or Charlotte and Salt Lake City within this last decade.  Last Friday's article showed several in the making.  By the same fashion, sprawling communities are built by automobile oriented infrastructure projects.  By the way, these projects are "completely" subsidized by taxpayer money.

QuoteI know the St. Louis system is heavily subsidized and therefore, not economically self-sufficient though it possesses very high ridership numbers.

It's important to understand these projects from a holistic viewpoint instead of tunnel vision.  I think we can all agree that roads, rail, public schools, parks, etc. are not economically self-sufficient.  These are quality of life offerings that improve the places we call home.  Nevertheless, the money invested in these projects generates income in different areas (such as increasing property values/taxes, civic pride, etc.).  

QuoteRail is the long-term answer but it is NOT a magic bullet and if not designed correctly it can have a detrimental effect on neighborhoods (again, see interstate highway system, which some US neighborhoods are ONLY now recovering from short-sighted design decisions made 40 years ago and some still have not, see East St. Louis).

There is no single magic bullet.  Yet, rail can (should) be a long and short term piece of solving a larger puzzle.  Long in terms of establishing an extensive regionalwide network and short in terms of getting something started to build upon.  I would also hope that whatever is constructed is done in a manner that is not detrimental to the areas surrounding it.  After all, using such projects to improve neighborhoods is one of the main goals for them in the first place after the destruction done to our community by the highway system.

Yes rail is hard to do when compared to all those self sufficient revenue producing roads that have done so well curbing sprawl.

Who do you think makes rail 'hard to do'? We do. We're trapped in a prison of our own making. I hear plenty of people talking the talk but there are few who are really walking the walk (because it's easier to drive).

Provide the reliable user friendly transit system and then lets see what really happens.  In Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Houston, Phoenix, Denver and San Diego, ridership numbers exceeded initial estimates proving naysayers wrong and stimulating walkable economic development in the process.  Those places have become what we aren't......successful.  Since their initial lines (short term goal), all of these places have (or are currently working) expanded their systems (long term goal).  Really all of this boils down to what this community wants to be.  If it really wants a vibrant urban core and the benefits that come with it, we're going to have to invest in the things that create these environments.  If we want to see downtown continue to fall apart and urban neighborhoods to continue to drop in density and building fabric, then we should just keep doing what we have for the last 60 years.

Quote from: stephendare on June 21, 2010, 04:19:06 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 21, 2010, 03:11:24 PM
I know you have this fixation with the meters, but they are a very smal part of the bigger picture....notice I encompassed several neighborhoods into InTown Jax....there are no meters in Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield currently...and there are people who live downtown (both northbank and southbank)...almost everyone has off-street parking.

yeah, tufsu, and no matter how much you rebrand something, if its a toxic product then it wont sell.  none of the rest of those districts are having a problem generating new tenants, you know.

here's what I don't get....you speak up about wanting to stop funding roads with your tax dollars...yet you're opposed to one of the few situations where user fees are put on the automobile.

I can ssure you that transit is not made more successful by making it easier to operate a car.

Are you suggesting that once we get good mass tranit downtown, you can re-install the meters?  If so, good luck with that!

May I suggest reading the book, "The High Cost of Free Parking".

if need be, sure.
Stephen...I'm totally fine with modernizing the meters or even having 1-hour and 2-hour free parking on certain streets....but to allow free parking w/ no restrictions on downtown streets would be chaos.

Maybe we should have a pilot program....try a month-long "meter-free period"....and then see what happens....my guess ios people will complain that they can't find a space because office workers park their car in the same spot all day.

I can say, that on the few times I am able to stop downtown for lunch... I either patronize Russ Does, City Hall Pub, or the Landing... all b/c of parking.  I'd love to do Zodiac, NOLA, Skyline, and others more if I wasn't so worried about lunch costing me a parking ticket.

my only gripe with the meters is I wish they accepted all types of currency or cc and allowed parking for longer than an hour, I never have any problems finding a spot to park on the street....then again I am not afraid of walking a block or two or riding the Skyway.

I agree, finding an open meter is real easy... but, I'm never the one that carries coins and my weekday trips downtown always seem to last more than an hour.

That is a definate deterrant to coming downtown weekdays before 6pm... I work in the Southside area, and my co-workers all voice that same opinion.  We actually had quite a few people that were required to go downtown recently to the UPS store to get fingerprinted.  I distributed an email to them detailing about the hour limits and having quarters to feed the meters(not dimes or nickels)... and sure enough, five of them received tickets.  None of those receiving tickets will ever go back downtown during the weekday b/c of it.

Quote from: stephendare on June 22, 2010, 11:56:58 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 22, 2010, 10:36:14 PM
if need be, sure.
Stephen...I'm totally fine with modernizing the meters or even having 1-hour and 2-hour free parking on certain streets....but to allow free parking w/ no restrictions on downtown streets would be chaos.

Maybe we should have a pilot program....try a month-long "meter-free period"....and then see what happens....my guess ios people will complain that they can't find a space because office workers park their car in the same spot all day.

poppycock

I'm willing to give it a test run....are you saying you're not willng to try it out?

Quote from: fieldafm on June 23, 2010, 09:47:24 AM
I agree, finding an open meter is real easy... but, I'm never the one that carries coins and my weekday trips downtown always seem to last more than an hour.

+1

Everybody says this same thing. There's tons of parking downtown, it's never hard to find a spot. The problem is that every trip downtown you wind up with a $15 parking ticket, which in my case pisses me off bad enough that I rarely go down there. The only time I go downtown anymore is to the courthouse, and occasionally to Nola for lunch.

These meters are ridiculous, nobody carries coins anymore. It's outdated to the extreme. And, as everyone except one person seems to recognize, most people would be there for more time than you can buy on those meters. It's just a rigged system designed to generate parking ticket revenue, except even then COJ has mismanaged it so badly that it doesn't make any money.

Which then begs the question of WTF's the point? It's not controlling "chaos," that argument is hogwash, there are already 3 or 4 parking spaces available for every 1 person downtown (look at the statistics on parking utilization rates published by MJ), so who cares if you took the meters out, there's still plenty of parking.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you look at comparable urban revitalizations, the successful ones usually always incorporate the elimination or scaleback of paid parking and enforcement. You can even bring it back once the area comes back, but if you're enforcing the hell out of it and nickel and diming everyone in a blighted area, then people just go somewhere else. It's not like there isn't plenty of other stuff to do around here that isn't downtown...

If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown.  I think we should ditch the meters and go with limit 2 hour signs that work in Riverside and San Marco.

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 23, 2010, 12:19:26 PM
If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown. 

what a novel idea

Here's a user story about the Skyway and downtown parking.  Until recently, I worked downtown. For the first two years, I parked in the Johnson St lot at the convention center and rode the Skyway to Central Station, by AT&T, which was a 1-1/2 block walk to my employer.  It was about a block or so in distance from my parking space to the Skyway as well. No big deal, not far. But I had to get there by 7:30 or 7:40 at the very latest to make it to my desk by 8:00.  It was a little uncomfortable on cold or wet days, but I felt the cost savings made up for it.  On two occasions, the Skyway broke down and JTA sent a shuttle to pick up the riders.  This made me about 15 minutes late to work. Fortunately for me, my employer didn't mind. But for another lady I chatted with, when she came in late for only the 2nd time in two years, her employer told her she'd better find somewhere else to park because another tardiness would cost her job. She had to abandon the Skyway.

After about two years, my employer upped their employee parking stipend by $30 per month.  At that time, I treated myself to a parking place in our building's garage. I was able to drive inside in all kinds of weather and arrive at 7:55 to get to my desk by 8:00.  The parking space cost me $90 per month, or the same price as my first apartment to park my 12-year-od compact car. :-)  But with the parking benefit, it was affordable, so I was glad to pay it.  However, it is costing my employer $70 for each employee that works downtown, plus higher downtown rents.

Where I am now, the rents are less, and parking is outside the door.

Over a year ago, Elton, the hot dog vendor on the corner of Laura and Forsyth, who had been there for 10 years, told me business had slowed down so much, he could hardly make it. That everyone was moving out.  Last time I was downtown, I saw the Zodiac has closed.  Dont' know why, but it's gone.  I love living and working downtown, but I understand why it's emptying out.

The Zodiac is thriving 4-5 doors east of their previous location on Adams! They have a full bar and also serve dinner now.

Awesome!

Excellent post Debbie!  Hey downtown, these are your customers talking to you... you might want to listen  :)

BTW, Zodiac didn't close thank God... they just moved.

I am downtown on nights and weekends prolly about 3 times a week.  I either ride to the Landing for lunch on Saturdays on my bike, or park on the street for free after 6pm.  No problems/complaints whatsoever and I thoroughly enjoy my time DT.

I have been downtown 4 times in the last month during normal business hours.  Twice was while I was working so I couldnt dilly-dally around with waiting on the Skyway.  So, of those two I paid $6 to park at the garage on Forsyth where the Kinkos is.  I knew I was going to be dowtown for about an hour and 20 minutes so the parking meter wouldnt work for me.  The other time I ate lunch at City Hall Pub, parked at the garage next to them, and took the Bay Street Trolley into town.  Again, I would have been downtown for about an hour and a half so meters wouldnt work for me and I got mad that I had to pay $6 for not quite more than an hour of parking at the Forsyth garage.

The other two times, I wasn't working and I took the Riverside Trolley into town and also parked at the King Street Garage and took the skyway into town(only b/c the Riverside Trolley hours wouldnt have worked for me on the day I took the Skyway).  All in all, my four weekday trips have cost me about $12.  If I didnt WANT to be downtown, it would have been much more cost effective to go anywhere else in this city.  Or, if the meters would use my credit card or had maybe a two hour limit then it would have cost me about $3 and I would have no problem paying the $3.  But $3 versus $12 is a big difference.  THAT's a deterrent.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 23, 2010, 12:40:12 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 23, 2010, 12:19:26 PM
If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown.  

what a novel idea

Or just save the three dollars and eat in the Southbank, Springfield, Five Points or San Marco.

QuoteHowever, it is costing my employer $70 for each employee that works downtown, plus higher downtown rents.

And there would be NO way my employer would do that.

Quote from: fieldafm on June 23, 2010, 01:20:17 PM

QuoteHowever, it is costing my employer $70 for each employee that works downtown, plus higher downtown rents.

And there would be NO way my employer would do that.

They do in lots of citys but you have to make being in downtown worth the extra cost that is why we are always harping on quality of life investments in the core.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2010, 01:18:58 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 23, 2010, 12:40:12 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 23, 2010, 12:19:26 PM
If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown. 

what a novel idea

Or just save the three dollars and eat in the Southbank, Springfield, Five Points or San Marco.

Downtown to Lake "not helping"

^True, but that's the problem the Northbank faces that people continue to ignore.  We offer an overrated CBD product that isn't worth the hassle of dealing with the non-end user friendly toxic policies blanketing it.  So it's very easy for people to avoid certain areas altogether and spend their money supporting businesses (even in the urban core) where those extra hassles don't exist.

I love visiting downtown, but I am an out-of-towner and occasional visitor.  I will either park at my hotel on the southbank and ride the Skyway or park at the Landing lot and walk everywhere rather than deal with any meter drama.  The only time I've parked on street is on a Saturday.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2010, 01:18:58 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 23, 2010, 12:40:12 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 23, 2010, 12:19:26 PM
If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown. 

what a novel idea

Or just save the three dollars and eat in the Southbank, Springfield, Five Points or San Marco.

agreed....downtown businesse in most cities rely on office workers for their weekday business....the issues in Jax. are making sure there are still enough dayime workers downtown and figuring out ways or businesses to succed at night and on the weekend (when parking is free!).

This solution is quite simple from the old railroad guys perch...

Parking enforcement DOES NOT make money, in fact it operates at a loss that is subsidized by the citizens. "BRAVO!"  Meanwhile it has the effect of killing downtown business and leaving our visitors with a nasty taste in their wallets about JAX.. We insist on "zoning" massive parking provision for every new office or door that is opened downtown which puts a double burden on the business community. Our transit system isn't even a service, rather it is barely an accommodation, not worthy of serious consideration to someone who MUST meet a schedule.

When I become Burgermeister of Jacksonville Transit, this is my solution:

1.  ALL METERS, smart, semi-smart, dumb or just plain stupid are removed from the urban core.

2.  Former meter "revenue" which is around $800,000 a year, is now going to be collected off of garage spaces with a zone price structure. Park in the immediate core and $200. a month is the new market price for city owned core garage spaces. Park out in the city owned edge lots, and save some real bucks.

But there is a much better way to save...

3. RIDE TRANSIT, even if it's just from an outlaying lot into the central city.  (This is another good argument for getting the Skyway across Main Street, into Riverside, San Marco, and with access to Baptist-Wolfson-Nemours).


How it works:

New Construction will NOT, yeah I said NOT! be required to provide parking, as long as they agree to a mass transit pass contract. For a yet-to-be-determined price, a premium package would give every employee a mass transit pass.

Both packages would offer parking in downtown garages at the new higher rates for key personnel if it was desired.

Smaller firms might consider a second package, which will balance via a formula, parking spaces and transit passes and any other special circumstances on a case by case basis.

Bottom line, MOVE TO DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE, and you DON'T have to build a 10 story parking garage... hell, you don't even need a 1 story garage.

Revenue surpluses from new parking schedule and from parking lot fees used to build / enhance mass transit.

How is it funded?

All city garages will experience an immediate reality check and price increase.

All private garages and lots will experience an immediate and substantial City license fee-per-space.

Parking fines represent added income, but NOT primary income to Parking Enforcement.



What about jobs? What about Parking Enforcement?

NOBODY... not ONE person loses his or her job, somebody still has to be around to stop the all day folks from sitting in a 15 minute loading zone and that's 75% of their "new" job.

The other 25% is a real shocker, Parking "Nazi's" (as some have called them) become ambassadors to downtown with ticketing authority.  Cars from any location beyond the Jacksonville MSA who park illegally (not blatantly illegally BTW) get a visitors warning card that gives them our rules, signs, small map, and a welcome message from our mayor and visitors bureau. Perhaps a coupon for a free fry's or cold drink.  Otherwise, EVERYONE in downtown enforcement (yes Sheriff) EVERYONE gets charm school and a Jax History course.


What happens?

PARKING downtown is 100% free at the curb.
A huge new chunk of change goes directly to Transit, and Transit Improvements.
Nazi's are gone.
No current employees or bosses are jobless.
Downtown image enhanced
Skyway, Rail, Buses all get major overhaul-installation-improvement


OCKLAWAHA

For suburbanites, nothing beats parking in the suburbs for next to nothing and taking a commuter train into downtown.  No hassle driving in downtown traffic, looking for a hard-to-find parking and/or affordable parking space, etc.  Then, once downtown, being able to use a transportation mode that CONVENIENTLY, FREQUENTLY, RELIABLY, CHEAPLY, and ACCESSIBLY loops through every corner/quadrant/segment of the grid.  That would most likely be walking, buses or streetcars.

So, what part of the above, does Jax have?  Next to none.

Instead of arguing about downtown parking, the focus of the conversation needs to move to mass transit.  Then, parking is a moot issue.  A major distinction of a downtown from suburbia is not needing a car at all.  Continuing to focus on parking just dilutes the likelihood that mass transit will come sooner than later.

Free, electronic, or any other kind of parking meters is not going to change the destiny of downtown much at this point given the new lows it is hitting.  If every one of the 1,600 meters was used and rotated every hour during a business day, it would not likely be enough to move the needle noticeably.  Just divide the number of meters by the number of businesses with customers.  Just bars, restaurants, and retail total 205 establishments.  That is 8 meters per that type of business.  Add visitors to hotels, professional firms, government agencies, cultural and educational institutions, banks, and corporations, and the number of meters available per business becomes a mere pittance.  If businesses are to be dependent on metered parking for survival, they are doomed to fail before they get started.

Downtown businesses need to make a sustainable living from downtown residents and employees, visitors staying at downtown hotels, or visitors/local residents/commuters coming in on suburban serving mass transit.  Anything done for downtown that does not directly feed one of these "beasts" is a waste of time and money.

The system I outlined above dumps the downtown curbside meters, opens up free parking for businesses throughout the core and pours new money into mass transit.

Now if only somebody would listen?  GLORIOUS?  HELLO!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 24, 2010, 12:21:42 AM
The system I outlined above dumps the downtown curbside meters, opens up free parking for businesses throughout the core and pours new money into mass transit.

Now if only somebody would listen?  GLORIOUS?  HELLO!

OCKLAWAHA

so who pays for it?

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 24, 2010, 08:42:59 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 24, 2010, 12:21:42 AM
The system I outlined above dumps the downtown curbside meters, opens up free parking for businesses throughout the core and pours new money into mass transit.

Now if only somebody would listen?  GLORIOUS?  HELLO!

OCKLAWAHA

so who pays for it?

Didn't he go explain that?

I realize this is somewhat off-topic, but PLEASE, good people, don't type entire posts in bold! IT'S ALMOST AS IRRITATING AS ALL CAPS. Having your entire post bolded makes it difficult to read. If you are trying create emphasis, only use bold type for key phrases. Otherwise, it will lose the impact you are trying to create with it, and become an eyesore instead.

When I see anything more than two sentences long in all caps or all bold, I skip it, because nothing you have to say is worth me getting a headache from reading it. So if you're trying to get my attention, it's actually having the opposite effect.

Thank you.

I end up skipping much of the bold stuff myself. Ock or stjr have a much better chance of me reading their entire post if I am on the blackberry not the PC because of the plain text.

I saw a need for downtown metered parking until now.  No retail is left.  Pull the meters and replace with 2 hour parking.  Issue warnings, and then citations to repeat offenders.  The technology is already in place.

My business is only open at night, and yet, the biggest concern my customers still have is getting mugged and their vehicle getting towed.  I've said before that most drivers in North Florida don't know how to parallel park, much less negotiate an urban landscape.  They get nervous, and pass on visiting downtown.

Let's just fill downtown with nightlife and then hopefully residential and retail will follow...

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 24, 2010, 11:39:27 AM
I end up skipping much of the bold stuff myself. Ock or stjr have a much better chance of me reading their entire post if I am on the blackberry not the PC because of the plain text.

I use bold because, on my computer screens, the contrast is far better to me than this plain type which is a light gray (not letter black) against an alternating screen of blue light and blue heavier.  It makes the type look somewhat faded.  On that basis, the higher contrast of bold is far easier to me to read.  It isn't meant to make a statement.  And, I got hooked on it, because I thought Ock's posts were easier to read when he used it.  Maybe Ock and I are older than the average poster here and we need the vision assistance!   ;)

By the way, I note that MJ uses bold lettering for most of its captions and headers, probably for the same reason.  If MJ could make the type for our posts a darker color or otherwise increase the contrast, I would be happy to abandon bold except for when I really do want added emphasis.

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 05:21:14 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 24, 2010, 11:39:27 AM
I end up skipping much of the bold stuff myself. Ock or stjr have a much better chance of me reading their entire post if I am on the blackberry not the PC because of the plain text.

I use bold because, on my computer screens, the contrast is far better to me than this plain type which is a light gray (not letter black) against an alternating screen of blue light and blue heavier.  It makes the type look somewhat faded.  On that basis, the higher contrast of bold is far easier to me to read.  It isn't meant to make a statement.  And, I got hooked on it, because I thought Ock's posts were easier to read when he used it.  Maybe Ock and I are older than the average poster here and we need the vision assistance!   ;)

By the way, I note that MJ uses bold lettering for most of its captions and headers, probably for the same reason.  If MJ could make the type for our posts a darker color or otherwise increase the contrast, I would be happy to abandon bold except for when I really do want added emphasis.

If you use Firefox there's a nifty add-on called NoSquint that lets you adjust text size and colors in your browser, and you can adjust the settings and save them by site with a few clicks on a menu in your status bar. It makes things alot easier for me, because my I'm blind as a bat and too vain to get bifocals.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2592/

Quote from: Jerry Moran on June 24, 2010, 01:45:01 PM
...I've said before that most drivers in North Florida don't know how to parallel park, much less negotiate an urban landscape.  They get nervous, and pass on visiting downtown.

I think you're absolutely right, here. Anytime I want to go downtown with friends, I end up having to drive because nobody else can parallel park. I only learned because I lived in downtown Portland, Maine for awhile and it was a necessity.

Not that you really have to parallel park when there is a 60 foot strip of empty parking space. But people who never leave Jacksonville don't have any kind of urban driving environment to compare downtown Jacksonville to and get scared. Easier to park at the Town Center and walk to the Cheesecake Factory.

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 05:21:14 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 24, 2010, 11:39:27 AM
I end up skipping much of the bold stuff myself. Ock or stjr have a much better chance of me reading their entire post if I am on the blackberry not the PC because of the plain text.

I use bold because, on my computer screens, the contrast is far better to me than this plain type which is a light gray (not letter black) against an alternating screen of blue light and blue heavier.  It makes the type look somewhat faded.  On that basis, the higher contrast of bold is far easier to me to read.  It isn't meant to make a statement.  And, I got hooked on it, because I thought Ock's posts were easier to read when he used it.  Maybe Ock and I are older than the average poster here and we need the vision assistance!   ;)

Or perhaps Ock does it because he is an SOB! ;)


OCKLAWAHA

QuoteEasier to park at the Town Center and walk to the Cheesecake Factory.

Who parks their own car at Town Center? Valet baby!

Quote from: mtraininjax on June 29, 2010, 10:36:03 PM
Who parks their own car at Town Center? Valet baby!

Maybe THAT'S the cure to downtown :D

Quote from: stjr on June 30, 2010, 12:27:12 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on June 29, 2010, 10:36:03 PM
Who parks their own car at Town Center? Valet baby!

Maybe THAT'S the cure to downtown :D

The Landing already offers the service

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 30, 2010, 04:53:47 AM

Quote from: stjr on June 30, 2010, 12:27:12 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on June 29, 2010, 10:36:03 PM
Who parks their own car at Town Center? Valet baby!

Maybe THAT'S the cure to downtown :D

The Landing already offers the service

Just don't mistake a transient for the valet attendant. ::chuckle::