Metro Jacksonville

QuoteHendricks Avenue is a patchwork of shops and restaurants mixed with empty storefronts: the poor stepchild or a street ready to boom

By Roger Bull

It's the other street in San Marco. Though just a block or two away from the trendy shops and crowds around the square, development along Hendricks Avenue is still uneven. There's growth, a mix of shops, restaurants and offices, but there's also empty buildings and storefronts.

Mashid Parsa, owner of the new Green Erth Bistro, called it "the ghetto of San Marco."

Designer Larry Wilson first bought property on Hendricks 13 years.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-06-11/story/san-marcos-no-mans-land

Cool.  According to the article, a Hurricane Grill & Wings will be moving into the old Panera Bread location on Hendricks this fall.

Much thanks for the link lake! Like every where else, slowly but surely, got no where to go but up? Would you know about bus routing in that part of the world? It looks to me like LR would be a good match and from what I remember, there was trolly at one time there? I would allmost bet there are still rails buried there like there were in Springfield found during the Main Street renovation!

The SS6 runs down Hendricks between I-95 and Atlantic Blvd every 35 minutes (http://www.jtafla.com/InteractiveSystemMap/map5.htm (http://www.jtafla.com/InteractiveSystemMap/map5.htm)).  The trolley ties were pulled up out of Hendricks when the streetscape was completed a few years ago.  LRT would be difficult because you won't be able to cross the FEC at grade.  However, this is one area where a short extension of the skyway really makes sense.  It already terminates a block away from Hendricks and once you get it over the tracks, you can drop it to ground level all the way down to Atlantic Blvd, making both Hendricks and San Marco Square accessible. 

I'm sure you've shown this plenty of times already, but how can you drop the skyway to ground level all the way down to atlantic? Where would the ROW be acquired, since the path would have to be closed off from pedestrian and automobile crossings? Thanks.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7072-skyway-map-1.jpg)

QuoteThis graphic illustrates how a conceptual 0.63 mile Skyway extension to San Marco Square could be developed to further reduce capital costs.  White represents the existing Skyway route.  Red represents elevated expansion segments while yellow represents ground level expansion segments.  At $15 million per one way mile, this extension would probably cost around $20 million, providing a direct connection between Downtown, Hendricks Avenue and San Marco Square.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-re-evaluating-the-skyway

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6970-p1150892.JPG)
An example of the skyway at ground level.

But that doesn't answer the question about the effect of it bisecting that area.  We are always talking about how bad it is for highways to divide neighborhoods - especially adjacent to FEC Park.  Wouldn't an electrified, fenced off, Skyway be even more of a barrier than a wide road - which it is possible to cross (even if not all that safe).  Also, with the hotel and proposed retail at (and using) the Kings Ave. garage, I don't think ground level would work there, either.

Thanks for the info lake.......I dug into it and found the SS6 route you posted. I agree Mr Charles...........elevated would be possibly the most viable option but it is an option!

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2010, 06:51:42 AM
But that doesn't answer the question about the effect of it bisecting that area.  We are always talking about how bad it is for highways to divide neighborhoods - especially adjacent to FEC Park.  Wouldn't an electrified, fenced off, Skyway be even more of a barrier than a wide road - which it is possible to cross (even if not all that safe).  Also, with the hotel and proposed retail at (and using) the Kings Ave. garage, I don't think ground level would work there, either.

The area is already fenced off and divided by the FEC railroad.  A ground level Skyway would be no different than a ground level EL, MARTA, MARTA or Metrorail (which all exist).  I'd also argue an extension to Atlantic Boulevard makes the area more accessible because the stations and line would give pedestrians a chance to get across the tracks and another north/south corridor.

You probably can't go completely to the ground near the hotel/garage but you can still drop it down a bit between Kings Avenue Station and the garage's entrance.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6982-p1060858.JPG)
^Dropping it down: Indianapolis' people mover.

Most important part of the article..

QuoteFor designer Wilson, one of the keys is connecting with the hotels and condo towers on the Southbank.

"We need to create a walking corridor from the housing there," he said, "and that's going to require infill. But I'm not sure it's going to happen anytime soon.

There are hundreds of residents along the river, but nothing for us to do.  There is no connectivity between us and the buildings south of I-95.  Until they can provide for the residents that are already in place, the area will fail to grow.  This could be one of the better corridors in the city, but the lack of amenities, attractions, and people cause it to fall behind Riverside, San Marco Square, Murray Hill, King St, and even Lakewood.

Personally, I think the connectivity under I-95 is pretty good....the main issue, imo, is that condo towers don't generally create much streetlife....I've almost always in favor of mid-rise (4-10 stories) residential buildings over towers.

I remember when Larry opened The Nest (he was kinda emulated by Nest Living). It was such a neat place. But a little too early for its' time. So he rented the property to the guy who got the Tropical Smoothie franchise, which has been doing really well. Now Larry's in his own design studio in the little building next to Trop smoothie with business partner Rebecca Davisson (both of whom I'm consider really good friends.) He got out of Rink Design when he saw the writing on the wall and has the most beautiful space. But those two have always been two of the most talented interior designers I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. And both have really good insight into San Marco and the city as a whole. Good to see him quoted.

*EDIT* Because I don't filter my words correctly sometimes.

Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 14, 2010, 01:20:05 PM
I remember when Larry opened The Nest (he was kinda knocked off by Nest Living). It was such a neat place. But a little too early for its' time.

Actually, I ripped my name off from a little store I visited in Denmark and another store called "nest" that's a staple design studio in London (Larry 'prolly ripped the name off from them). I actually never had a chance to visit Larry's store as it had closed long before I moved here but I appreciate your comparison as I too am a huge fan of Larry's work.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 14, 2010, 07:04:14 AM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2010, 06:51:42 AM
But that doesn't answer the question about the effect of it bisecting that area.  We are always talking about how bad it is for highways to divide neighborhoods - especially adjacent to FEC Park.  Wouldn't an electrified, fenced off, Skyway be even more of a barrier than a wide road - which it is possible to cross (even if not all that safe).  Also, with the hotel and proposed retail at (and using) the Kings Ave. garage, I don't think ground level would work there, either.

The area is already fenced off and divided by the FEC railroad.  A ground level Skyway would be no different than a ground level EL, MARTA, MARTA or Metrorail (which all exist).  I'd also argue an extension to Atlantic Boulevard makes the area more accessible because the stations and line would give pedestrians a chance to get across the tracks and another north/south corridor.

Is the FEC fenced off in that section? Can't tell from Google maps, although it looks like the park is fenced.  If so, it may not be as much of a barrier as I thought.

There are sections that are fenced and other areas with heavy overgrowth.  However, there is no way to cross the tracks on foot between Atlantic and Hendricks without trespassing.

"No Trespassing" across a RR track?  No one would ever do that!!  On Roosevelt near McDuff, a well-worn path goes right by a couple of those RR No Trespassing signs. 

But, like I said, if there is already a physical barrier along (most of) the FEC in San Marco, adding the Skyway at ground level wouldn't be so bad.  But if not, it would be trading an impenetrable physical barrier for a theoretical (no trespassing) one.

Again, it looks like in this case, it looks like a good application, and would save money over keeping it elevated.

From checking it out at ground level, its a pretty physical barrier and the addition of the skyway has more positives than negatives when accessibility is concerned.  You can get better aerials of it using bing's bird's eye view shots.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=p1jcyw85w0xh&scene=35306906&lvl=1&sty=b&where1=Jacksonville%2C%20FL

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2010, 11:40:17 PM
"No Trespassing" across a RR track?  No one would ever do that!!  On Roosevelt near McDuff, a well-worn path goes right by a couple of those RR No Trespassing signs. 

But, like I said, if there is already a physical barrier along (most of) the FEC in San Marco, adding the Skyway at ground level wouldn't be so bad.  But if not, it would be trading an impenetrable physical barrier for a theoretical (no trespassing) one.

Again, it looks like in this case, it looks like a good application, and would save money over keeping it elevated.

Charles, those trails across the railroad by McDuff are there because we abandoned the streetcar that once crossed there and people today had rather walk then ride a JTA bus... If they even have that choice.  Anyone know how often the bus rolls down McDuff or Edgewood? The streetcar did it every 10 minutes back in 1930!
SMILE!

As the guy that first proposed the Skyway to the West Side of the Railroad at Atlantic Boulevard my concept was/is very much a intermodal link as good as Rosa Parks.  The station would have COMMUTER RAIL, COMMUNITY BUS, BRT, BUS, and SKYWAY service. My original concept calls for the station to have an elevated Skyway line that drops down (such as the photo Ennis posted) to ground level prior to entering the Atlantic Boulevard Terminus. This is something that might have to change if Jackson Square ever gets off the ground, as they would be the next logical Skyway Station, because in spite of their hype, there is no way in hell anyone is going to stop a commuter train twice within 1/4 mile. If they have the $$ then a further extension south might be an ideal PPP for JTA.

When I presented my ground level concept it caused a stir of "NO WAY!" etc... from JTA officers around the room; sometimes you just have to smile and shake your head. The idea wasn't to save money, rather it was to make the Skyway more user friendly at a terminal that could change the future of the little system. If a double track Skyway line ended at the station, they could be positioned to have a platform on either side, as opposed to the usual Skyway practice of one platform in the center, between the tracks.  With a GROUND LEVEL platform both east and west of the Skyway track, the East platform would serve the Skyway and the Commuter Trains on the nearby FEC RY, while the West platform would serve the Skyway and the JTA buses. People connecting from train to bus would simply pass by South of the bumper posts at the end of the Skyway lines, probably between the station itself and the end of the track.  With all of 25' feet to walk, moving from a train rolling in from the South to the Skyway for a job on the Southbank, would be a snap. Ditto for the 70' foot walk between rail and bus.

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S43Rdna9vzI/AAAAAAAACAY/4Rj6CGCOGmE/s800/Skyway%20Intermodal%20Station.jpg)
This fanciful rendering is looking Southeast from the park. It gives you some general ideas of the broad concept but the details have become more refined.

I'm not a huge fan of running the Skyway on the ground for any distance as it becomes a very dangerous attractive nuisance for some dare to be brave teen to get fried on. Ground level at the station would be very easy to police or monitor.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on June 14, 2010, 11:47:13 PM
From checking it out at ground level, its a pretty physical barrier and the addition of the skyway has more positives than negatives when accessibility is concerned.  You can get better aerials of it using bing's bird's eye view shots.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=p1jcyw85w0xh&scene=35306906&lvl=1&sty=b&where1=Jacksonville%2C%20FL

OK. I can't speak for Charles, but I am satisfied.  ;)

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2010, 11:40:17 PM
"No Trespassing" across a RR track?  No one would ever do that!!  On Roosevelt near McDuff, a well-worn path goes right by a couple of those RR No Trespassing signs. 

But, like I said, if there is already a physical barrier along (most of) the FEC in San Marco, adding the Skyway at ground level wouldn't be so bad.  But if not, it would be trading an impenetrable physical barrier for a theoretical (no trespassing) one.

Again, it looks like in this case, it looks like a good application, and would save money over keeping it elevated.

I know that trail....its there because people used to walk to winn dixie/family dollar there is no sidewalk on that side of Post Street when coming down post or college the sidewalk ends at the 17 overpass

No sidewalks huh? Gee ....I wonder if the nearest bustop has a shelter with a roof? More than likely not but, I digress! This actually makes some sort of sense.............$kyway has to be extended in order to survive, so its real simple! Extend it in a useable direction or shut it down! Even JTA might come to that conclusion! Maybe!

I believe that there is nothing new under the sun and that we're better off looking at how other cities have dealt with situations on their own before moving forward with anything locally.

Thus, I have a question about going ground level for the experts.  There are significant portions of DC's Metro at ground level.  How do they keep people off those tracks?  Could the techniques they've found successful at keeping people from being fried be applied to Jacksonville?

If I remember from my trips there - and Atlanta's MARTA - is tall (8 foot? 10 foot?) chain link fence, possibly topped with barbed wire - but not so sure about that last part. Some are next to interstates or other expressways, so they share the fence on one side. 

My comment was not so much that it can't be done, just pointing out that here at MJ we talk a lot about connectivity and decrying highways that disconnect neighborhoods.  Now, we are talking about creating an uncrossable physical barrier.  But, from lakelander's comments and the pictures of the area, in this case, it seems a ground-level Skyway wouldn't be adding much to the existing barriers.

Understood.  Yes, I would not endorse such an idea if I thought it limited pedestrian connectivity or was an negative impact on the surrounding area.  With that said, I would not be a fan of extending the skyway to pierce the borders of historic districts like Riverside/Avondale and Springfield.  While it would help the system, there are serious negative environmental impacts with such an idea.

I agree, Lake.  So when do you and Ock take over?  :)

Quote from: nestliving on June 14, 2010, 10:57:45 PM

Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 14, 2010, 01:20:05 PM
I remember when Larry opened The Nest (he was kinda knocked off by Nest Living). It was such a neat place. But a little too early for its' time.

Actually, I ripped my name off from a little store I visited in Denmark and another store called "nest" that's a staple design studio in London (Larry 'prolly ripped the name off from them). I actually never had a chance to visit Larry's store as it had closed long before I moved here but I appreciate your comparison as I too am a huge fan of Larry's work.

:) No offense intended. I loved his store and I love yours.

OCKLAWAHA