Have to hang this one on Ed Austin. He had no real urban plan for La Villa. City developed it akin to a suburban office park. Buildings set back from the street with big, surrounding surface lots. Interline Brands and the Credit Union even have gated properties. Not what makes a successful downtown. Another piece to the lack of vision in this City.
QuoteJacksonville's grand plan for LaVilla: 'A story of fits and starts'
Posted: May 19, 2010 - 8:10pm
By Tia Mitchell
Depending on whom you ask, the empty lots remaining in LaVilla are either signs of a failed revitalization project or a promise of what is to come.
Some blocks contain thriving office buildings that were the goal of a 1993 decision to virtually gut the neighborhood west of downtown Jacksonville and start anew. But many other blocks remain vacant, awaiting developers that have yet to come calling.
Nearly the entire neighborhood looms in the shadow of the oft-maligned and under-construction Duval County courthouse. Many believe that project may finally kick-start the revival initiative that has, at best, sputtered over nearly 20 years.
Mayor John Peyton said LaVilla suffered because City Hall didn't stick to a plan.
"LaVilla is a story of fits and starts," he said, "that I think reflects poorly on our ability to execute a master plan."
The city's failures with LaVilla are now part of Peyton's stump speech on Cecil Commerce Center. He is attempting to build City Council support for hiring a Texas firm to serve as master developer of the former Navy jet base.
Peyton said LaVilla is what Cecil could become. He said the city did not have the tools necessary to carry out its vision to spend $30 million revitalizing 30 blocks of the then-blighted and crime-ridden neighborhood.
"That is an example of exactly what you don't want to do," Peyton told a group of council members this month.
Architect Ted Pappas disagrees. He says LaVilla is a success story compared to the city's struggles with revitalizing its downtown.
Since 2000, Pappas and a group of partners have built two medical office buildings in the neighborhood, and a third is on the way. He said he has made good on his promises to the city, and LaVilla has served the group's interests well.
Pappas said the few failed LaVilla projects - such as a planned restaurant and the Genovar's Hall restoration project - should not overshadow the many successful ones.
"We feel like the only action downtown has been what we've done," Pappas said. "You never hear about it, but we did it."
It was Mayor Ed Austin's decision to start over in LaVilla.
Bungalows and two-story homes once lined the streets of the bustling neighborhood, hub of the city's African-American community. During its heyday in the early- and mid-1900s, the area was known as "Harlem of the South" because of its prominence as a culture and entertainment hub where the country's most popular black artists performed and sometimes even lived.
However, desegregation of the 1960s was tough on the businesses of LaVilla: Their clientele began to live and shop in other neighborhoods newly open to them. By the 1980s, the crack cocaine epidemic hit these city blocks hard, leading to poverty, crime and blight.
Then, as it is now, the easiest way to enter downtown from Interstate 95 is to drive through a handful of LaVilla blocks. Chamber of Commerce leaders began to complain that the neighborhood was the wrong way to introduce visiting business executives to the city.
Instead, they would detour across the river, through San Marco and over the Main Street bridge just to avoid LaVilla.
Austin's River City Renaissance plan allocated $30 million to redevelop the areas bordered by Water Street to the south, State Street to the north, Broad Street to the east, and I-95 on the west.
Roads were widened, palm trees planted and new signs added. The city bought or condemned tracts of land, most of the old houses were demolished and the lots were cleared. Austin's hope was that the vacant tracts would lure developers who would buy up the land and start something fresh.
He envisioned LaVilla as a place were people lived and worked, making the neighborhood part of the overall solution for re-energizing downtown.
"It wasn't to displace [people]," Austin said. "We were looking to create an environment that encouraged the private sector to get in there and rebuild our central city."
Austin said his administration did its best to reach out to LaVilla property owners during the planning process.
But the Rev. Odell Smith Jr., pastor of Second Missionary Baptist Church for 23 years, was introduced to the River City Renaissance project when the church received a bill of sale for property it owns along Union Street.
Smith marched downtown and gave the city a piece of his mind.
"You just can't take it," he remembers telling them. "How are you going to send me a bill? We didn't say we wanted to sell it."
The city backed down from buying the church's property, but it moved forward with purchasing or condemning many other blocks. Now Smith and Freddie Starks, the church's secretary who has been attending since she was a toddler, gaze at the new buildings and remember the movie theaters, barber shops and fire stations that used to stand there.
The good thing is dilapidated and abandoned properties are gone, and so is the crime that resulted from it, they said. They also welcomed opportunities for businesses to replace the neighborhood's slums.
But the revitalization has also cost the church.
"The relocation has robbed us of members - big time," Smith said.
The church's roster is about half of what it was before the redevelopment, when many members lived within walking distance. As people moved out of LaVilla, businesses moved in.
In 2000, the Downtown Development Authority suggested John Hirabayashi move his growing credit union's headquarters to the neighborhood. The city agency offered land for cheap, highlighted redevelopment efforts and said the Duval County courthouse, at one time scheduled for a 2006 opening, would make it even better.
"We envisioned at the time it would bring more restaurants, perhaps more ancillary businesses feeding off of the courthouse," said Hirabayashi, CEO of Community First Credit Union.
As the courthouse stalled over the years for political and financial reasons - it is now scheduled to open in 2012 - related business projects faltered, too.
Austin said his goal was for LaVilla to return to its roots as a neighborhood where people live and work.
Though he doesn't blame his successors - John Delaney, who became mayor in 1995, or Peyton, who took over in 2003 - he is disappointed that progress has been slow.
"I think the community gets behind initiatives," Austin said. "This one just seems to be one that has sort of been dead in the-water for a number of years."
When River City Renaissance was first implemented, the Downtown Development Authority worked with Pappas and Hirabayashi to lure them to LaVilla. Peyton eliminated the DDA in 2006 under a government streamlining plan.
Since then, some downtown advocates say, there is no longer anyone in City Hall whose sole focus is building up the city core. Austin said he believes the LaVilla redevelopment needed exactly that.
"It just won't happen if you let it flop around and don't have somebody pulling these pieces together," he said.
Also contributing to the issues are the different ideas of what LaVilla should be. Though Austin and others hoped for residential and commercial businesses, Pappas insists that bringing housing back to the neighborhood would be a mistake.
"That's going in the wrong direction," he said. "Let's not make LaVilla another Riverside or another Springfield."
Then there is the goal of preserving the neighborhood's history as an arts and cultural center, widely supported but harder to achieve.
The city allocated $8 million to rebuild the Ritz Theatre on the site of the original structure and attached an African-American history museum to it. But its budget far surpasses revenue, and Peyton threatened to shutter the landmark last year.
Efforts by a local fraternity to save Genovar's Hall, where Ray Charles and Ella Fitzgerald once performed, received $900,000 in state and local money. After a promising start, the project has been abandoned.
The proposed LaVilla Bistro restaurant on the corner of Davis and Union streets received $1.9 million in city aid, but it, too, remains an incomplete project.
Even LaVilla School of the Arts, a magnet program that has become one of the city's most sought-after middle schools, was shrouded in controversy during the planning stages.
Initially, city leaders lobbied the School Board to build a school in LaVilla to jump-start development. Later, when private companies showed interested in that same property, city leaders begged the school system to reconsider. But the project was too far gone for board members to pull back.
Some consider the Prime Osborn Convention Center in the southernmost portion of the neighborhood a wasted opportunity. In recent years, the city and state have floated the idea of creating a transportation hub there. Others advocated that the center undergo renovations and expansions to increase its viability for conventions and other special events.
Still looming over LaVilla, both literally and figuratively, is the courthouse being built right on its border with downtown. When the $350 million project is finished, the city's legal community will be shifting its eyes westward.
Peyton has made building a courthouse -- a task left over from the Delaney era -- a priority of his administration.
"The courthouse is going to be a catalyst project that will spawn economic development in Jacksonville's front porch," he said.
Hirabayashi can see the construction cranes and rising structure from his office window.
"If things start to fill in and we get a few things on the west side of that courthouse building like eating establishments," then more demand will be created, he said.
"I think there could be some business there. We're patient."
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-05-19/story/future-jacksonvilles-longtime-lavilla-project-good-or-bad
LaVilla is a complete failure. Completely eliminating a historic urban African-American neighborhood for the development of a suburban downtown office park is anything but success. Its wrong on so many ethical and social levels (just my two cents).
Nevertheless, here are some images from the time when LaVilla happened to be a neighborhood where people really lived, worked and played.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-aerial-library.jpg)
In its heyday, LaVilla was one of Jacksonville's most dense urban neighborhoods with a population well above 5,000. In this photo, Broad Street is the commercial street running towards the river on the left side of the image. Today, the LaVilla School of the Arts occupies a large section of this image at the bottom right and center.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-aerial.jpg)
This 2006 aerial shows the destruction of a once vibrant community reduced to rubble, in the name of progress and urban renewal. Although the neighborhood had declined by the early 1990s, Ed Austin's River City Renaissance put the final nail in its coffin, transforming it into a wasteland of vacant lots, surface parking lots and non pedestrian friendly suburban office complexes.
Examples of buildings and scenes in LaVilla that no longer exist
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-demolition-library.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-demolition2-library.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-demolition3-library.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-buildings.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520606570_PgWzf-600x10000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520606636_UwnsD-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/496493943_3VFtW-M.jpg)
La Villa typifies Jacksonville planning which is (1) tear it down and do it double speed if it might be historic (2) leave it vacant due to failure to have any idea what to do next as visioning isn't our thing.
And, we wonder why decades of "urban renewal" haven't renewed anything but demolition contractor's pockets.
Wrong on every level. I do not and will not ever get demolition. Very sad.
I can't believe anyone can make an argument that kicking out residents and leveling an entire neighborhood should be considered a success. Imagine how popular and unique Savannah would be today if they implemented this type of redevelopment strategy with their Victorian District? My guess is the streets would be just as full and vibrant as the streets of LaVilla are today.
From this:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600614989_yG4g8-M.jpg)
To this:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520608710_DhxCF-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520611951_J5kjJ-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520608850_urDY9-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520607018_E7HyE-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520611056_ZizaQ-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3452-p1070620.JPG)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/599778211_LQH8s-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/599777983_3KwuJ-M.jpg)
Just beautiful.....
Why does Pappas think adding residential would be so deterimental? I don't get it? Does he only want more office buildings?
Here's a couple more heartbreaking pics of classic LaVilla.
1940's
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/viperempire/1940Lavilla-1.jpg)
1950's
(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3788/1950saerialzn4.jpg)
Jax looks like a bigger, or at least more vibrant, city in the 1950's than today. It proves that having tall buildings doesn't mean squat if nothing is happening on the ground. If we had more concern for historic low rises than modern high rises, we would likely be better off than now.Quote from: vicupstate on May 19, 2010, 10:29:39 PM
Why does Pappas think adding residential would be so deterimental? I don't get it? Does he only want more office buildings?
Ted Pappas isn't going to win architect of the year in my book anytime soon. I think he just likes getting his next commission, not whether it fits in to LaVilla, Downtown, an urban environment, or whatever. My guess is he doesn't due residential (but, clearly, he does do office buildings) so why promote it ;)
There is no critical mass in La Villa. Leave it alone, focus on downtown and growing 1 place at a time. Jax is good at tearing up neighborhoods, but piss poor at replacing them with anything other than parking lots or grass fields. Did the same thing around the Arena, leveled all the homes that now house more parking lots.
Of all of the statements that prominent people in the city have made, this one might be the most outrageous. Sorry - LaVilla has been a collossal failure. It's a sugurban office park, no different than driving down Baymeadows Way on the southside. Can we really call that a successful development?
Holy cow.
How long will this area continue to waste away. I said in another post everything was fenced off,,thanks for the pics to prove it. I drive downtown often, and imagine what could be.Jax should be the place to be in the North, but were just a stop for fuel and a snack, and then people head further South.
Here are a few sketches of what LaVilla was supposed to be replaced by.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/Ritz-1.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-rendering.jpg)
The two illustrations above were scanned from the LaVilla redevelopment plan. Although they show a revitalized community with its historic housing stock remaining, along with residents, the end result of the plan resulted in people being kicked out of the neighborhood they grew up and operated businesses in, as well as those structures being attacked Godzilla style and erased from existence.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-redevelopment-plan1.jpg)
ALTERNATIVE PLAN 1
shows the entire LaVilla residential section being demolished and replaced by a massive recreational park with baseball & soccer fields, basketball courts a lake and a jogging track. A massive five block section between Adams and Monroe Streets, from I-95 to Jefferson Street was to be leveled and converted into surface parking. Not exactly a pedestrian friendly idea one would equate with living or being in the urban core of a city with 800,000 residents.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-redevelopment-plan.jpg)
ALTERNATIVE PLAN 2
This alternative shows the recreational area being reduced in size, allowing for residential mixed use space on the blocks between Davis and Broad, while saving six buildings in the process. In this plan, the surface parking along Adams and Monroe remain, while planners also introduced the idea of cul-de-sacs within the urban core. Its unfortunate, that as late as the mid 1990s, the planners and leaders of this city still considered surface parking lots and essentially access controlled subdivisions as the idea gateway to downtown from I-95.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/lavilla_history/2006-11-08/LaVilla-parkinglot.jpg)
This image shows the surface parking blocks in detail. Were we restoring an urban neighborhood or attempting to open up a car lot? Since when did it become popular for pedestrians to stroll wide sidewalks facing parked cars instead of sidewalk cafes, retail shops, urban housing and parks?
The city would have saved a ton of money with a plan that incorporated most of the neighborhood's building stock. Land acquisition and building demolition money could have been used for other needs. That pedestrian scale historic building stock would have been instrumental in creating opportunity for small local businesses and urban pioneers. Now an entire section of the CBD's future is limited to new construction projects that typically have no relation whatsoever to the immediate surrounding environment.
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/lead_photo_wide/LavillaRevitalization0520.jpg)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-05-19/story/future-jacksonvilles-longtime-lavilla-project-good-or-bad
This is, clearly, what my La Villa School of the Arts student daughters would describe as an "EPIC fail."
What can we do to improve the mess the City has made? There actually is a (small) critical mass to work from. LASOTA is a wildly popular magnet school, with around 1200 students and frequent performances that draw crowds into the area. There are several medical office buildings nearby; the Ritz Theatre and Museum, the Prime Osborne and the skyway are within walking distance. The restored Brewster Hospital buildng is around the corner. By the way, that's another epic fail. Shockingly high cost of restoration (Springfielders, how'd you like a couple of million dollars to spend on your home renovation?!?!), fighting over what the appropriate use of the facility should be, now sitting empty.
There are a few historic structures in need of rehabilitiation left, both residential and commercial buildings, including epic fail number 3 - Genovar Hall. And finally, unused new building and epic fail number 4, the city financed La Villa restaurant.
I'm not a planner but I have some ideas. And I know that more than a couple of folks on this board could come up with a plan that would salvage what's left of Lavilla.
I remember when I was in high school and my father advised that I should never quit a job until I have another one lined up. When he said, "lined up," he meant that it was a 100% sure thing. The fits and starts in our city planning (or lack of planning) seem to include the wanton destruction of buildings without having a definite plan for replacing those structures. We seem to keep hoping that vacant lots will attract construction. Instead, these vacant lots attact litter.
Oh, Jacksonville. I am always amazed (though I shouldn't be anymore) about the city's excitement when it comes to tearing down buildings. That and the Jaguars are two things the city government really gets behind.
The sad thing is how many local residents are all for tearing down "old stuff." I wish there was a bigger focus on Jacksonville history in school. I had no idea there were buildings still standing (until they tore 'em down) that were around during the Spanish-American War. I'm 31 years old, I was born and raised here, and I never knew about that kind of historical stuff. It's like to survive, these old buildings have to hide and hope somebody buys them that really wants to maintain them, and that the city doesn't decide they need the land.
Jaxson hit the nail on the head. Have something "lined up" before you tear down a 100 year old building. Don't tear it down just to tear it down. I worry that future children of Jacksonville will look to architectural gems like the Times-Union building as historic artifacts.
What a shame.
Quote from: stjr on May 19, 2010, 11:36:55 PM
Jax looks like a bigger, or at least more vibrant, city in the 1950's than today. It proves that having tall buildings doesn't mean squat if nothing is happening on the ground. If we had more concern for historic low rises than modern high rises, we would likely be better off than now.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 19, 2010, 10:29:39 PM
Why does Pappas think adding residential would be so deterimental? I don't get it? Does he only want more office buildings?
Ted Pappas isn't going to win architect of the year in my book anytime soon. I think he just likes getting his next commission, not whether it fits in to LaVilla, Downtown, an urban environment, or whatever. My guess is he doesn't due residential (but, clearly, he does do office buildings) so why promote it ;)
Please allow me to defend my father's statements. But first, let me agree with the statement that downtown Jacksonville was a more vibrant city in the 1950's. And anyone who knows Ted Pappas would know that he has championed downtown redevelopment for years, and would be the first to argue that large high-rise buildings kill the pedestrian nature of a small city. Urban sprawl is an unfortunate result of having cheap, plentiful land, which was Jacksonville in the late 1970's-1990's.
One of the main issues that impacted LaVilla was the dissection of the neighborhood by I-95 and the development of State and Union Streets into one-way raceways, cutting off the pedestrian connection to Springfield. One can certainly argue against the plan to raze LaVilla back in the 1990's. But a plan was developed that largely included commercial development in LaVilla and had the residential development slated for Brooklyn.
Ted does not think residential is detrimental (not deterimental)(//), but the plan for backing up new developments to I-95 didn't seem to make a lot of sense to him. Regarding his experience as a residential architect, he does do (not due) residential work, and has extensive experience at all levels including affordable, community redevelopment. Ted's firm was the lead architect on the Brentwood redevelopment project; designed some of the first student housing at Edward Waters College and UNF, and has an extensive portfolio of high end private residential projects, including many award winning designs.
His involvement in responding to the City's plan for LaVilla involved not only his architectural studio doing design work, but also his own personal investment in the community as a result of the State of Florida's taking of his Historic Riverside Avenue offices by eminent domain to widen Riverside Avenue and make way for the redevelopment of Brooklyn. Unfortunately, things don't always happen as quickly or like we may have hoped. But you can dig in and get your hands dirty and work within the constraints of reality. Or you can spend your days anonymously posting to discussion pages, criticizing what others do without knowing all the facts.
Please keep your architect of the year award. I'm sure your experiences and commitment to this City make it a prestigious honor, but we will continue to do our work and provide quality architectural services and unique design solutions.
Mark Pappas
Ted has been a pioneer and long time advocate of historic preservation and adaptive reuse in Jacksonville.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 19, 2010, 11:49:43 PM
There is no critical mass in La Villa. Leave it alone, focus on downtown and growing 1 place at a time. Jax is good at tearing up neighborhoods, but piss poor at replacing them with anything other than parking lots or grass fields. Did the same thing around the Arena, leveled all the homes that now house more parking lots.
Agreed. I don't think we need to spend a dime of public money on La Villa for a while. Once the courthouse is completed, let private money develop around it. Otherwise, focus on the Laura street Corridor until it's absolutely bursting with activity, then move out one block at a time. If Bay Street Station takes off, great, but until then just make sure the infill is pedestrian friendly and smart.
Not that I'm a huge fan of the ballfields/sports complex idea proposed for LaVilla....but Boston has the Commons and New York has Central Park...and they're considered pedestrian friendly.
Creating a large central park space isn't such a bad idea...that's what many of us want to see Klutho Park become.
Thanks for the welcome, Stephen.
I do agree that downtown revitalization has been a long and often fruitless endeavor. I would say that in addition to poor planning, other factors worked against downtown. The growth of suburbia and suburban office parks with cookie cutter housing developments and millions of square feet of available office space developed during the past 25 years or so certainly impacted the social and economic fabric of the downtown core. There is also a political reality inherent to democracy that one administration's plans might not make the cut with the next group, thus killing any real synergy that had formed as a result of thoughtful dialogue.
Regarding my response, I don't get the McCain reference. I did respond to the 'ideas'. And I responded to someone who publically attacked my father's motives as someone concerned only with "getting his next commission" and then tried to define the practice areas of his firm - incorrectly. Those were both false statements and worthy of a response. I won't apologize for correcting someones bad grammar or spelling if they are poorly throwing stones in my general direction. I can certainly handle criticism and an alternative opinion, but I won't stand by while someone paints a false picture
I live in a world where a person's reputation is a valued asset that one protects when it is being wrongly challenged. Which really brings to light the irony of your statement regarding the anonymity of some posters who are trying to "protect their personal lives from the dangers of global communication". I guess it's OK for these people to post whatever they want about others, just so long as they can hide behind the keyboard.
MPP
Stephen:
No problem whatsoever. All is well with the 'Dynamite' reference. I believe his first vision for LaVilla was a golf course so that out of town visitors could drive through a green belt.
Regarding LaVilla, the development group of the first 2 medical buildings are exploring options for a third. I know this isn't the type of development that gets people excited, but it has been very well received with some of Jacksonville's top docs setting up locations there for it's central location and easy access. Ted was dragged through the mud over the second phase of that development as it involved moving the Brewster Hospital, a concept in the city's original RFP for LaVilla developers. Ted was lambasted by some politicians as the villain, but in the end, it brought back medical care to downtown that didn't involve going to a hospital.
I believe that an RFP was recently issued to resurrect the failed restaurant across from the Ritz. That is a classic case of everything going wrong - concept, planning, oversight. I have heard that the lot to west of the Signet center is in some sort of litigation with the city over development issues. Not a whole lot that has bubbled to the surface, but I suspect that plans are shaping up to coincide with the opening of the courthouse. Again, this will probably not be the type of development people get excited about - law offices, sandwhich shops, etc. Let's hope for a economic recovery in the near future and perhaps Brooklyn might come back to life. In my opinion, the plans for mixed use developments there makes a lot of sense.
I drive down the Brooklyn section of Park Street every day, and can really envision the vibrancy of Riverside and 5 Points extending into this area.
I will dig around to see if I can find the Park and King concepts.
MPP
QuoteAlso contributing to the issues are the different ideas of what LaVilla should be. Though Austin and others hoped for residential and commercial businesses, Pappas insists that bringing housing back to the neighborhood would be a mistake.
"That's going in the wrong direction," he said. "Let's not make LaVilla another Riverside or another Springfield."
Mr Pappas, would you say that your father was misquoted? Based on your post, can we assume your father would be supportive of bringing residential projects to LaVilla, provided they did not border the I-95 right of way?
Prior to building a project in Springfield, a partner and myself wanted to do a small residential project in LaVilla. The city was not particularly enthused.
If we were to revisit that in the future, might your father be an ally?
Quote from: vicupstate on May 19, 2010, 10:29:39 PM
Why does Pappas think adding residential would be so deterimental? I don't get it? Does he only want more office buildings?
because he and a few partners own a lot of the land around his two medical office buildings and he wants to continue to expand on his mini office park cash cow with city incentives.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on May 21, 2010, 01:41:59 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on May 19, 2010, 10:29:39 PM
Why does Pappas think adding residential would be so deterimental? I don't get it? Does he only want more office buildings?
because he and a few partners own a lot of the land around his two medical office buildings and he wants to continue to expand on his mini office park cash cow with city incentives.
seems to me he and his partners have invested in LaVilla....not many others can say that right now.
My statement was a tongue in cheek statement poking fun at the folks making statements about Ted and his involvements with the LaVilla area without knowing the facts and not meant to be taken seriously, but I realized after posting it, it read quite the opposite. My apologies up front. I personally know and like Ted Pappas, and Mark as well.
sorry JaxNative...my bad
no need for you to apologize for my lack of clarity
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 21, 2010, 11:00:41 AM
Not that I'm a huge fan of the ballfields/sports complex idea proposed for LaVilla....but Boston has the Commons and New York has Central Park...and they're considered pedestrian friendly.
Creating a large central park space isn't such a bad idea...that's what many of us want to see Klutho Park become.
That's what Klutho Park was originally intended to be and was. For some reason, we've turned our back to our actual "central park" that already includes everything you mentioned above. Anyway, the simple act of kicking an entire neighborhood out of their homes and destroying a century old community because people who live outside of it believe its time to start over from scratch is what makes LaVilla's redevelopment a colossal failure.
Savannah nearly did become LaVilla. During the urban redevelopment craze a few decades ago, urban planners were all for knocking down the neglected old houses downtown and building new buildings. Fortunately, a group of fiery preservationists organized and won the day.
Lake, from your post, in my minds eye, I can see LaVilla, Durkeeville and Springfield surrounding a vital Klutho Park. No speedway Union and State, and no FSCJ and bus station cutting off Springfield from LaVilla and downtown. Long before now, with that ambiance, all those homes would have been restored, or on the way to it. Grants could have helped poorer families fix up their homes. We would have a vibrant downtown historic district that was second to none.
“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.†John Greenleaf Whittier
Quote from: mppappas on May 21, 2010, 11:07:34 AM
I live in a world where a person's reputation is a valued asset that one protects when it is being wrongly challenged. Which really brings to light the irony of your statement regarding the anonymity of some posters who are trying to "protect their personal lives from the dangers of global communication". I guess it's OK for these people to post whatever they want about others, just so long as they can hide behind the keyboard.
MPP
Part I:
Mark, I appreciate your sensitivities. We all have family and hate to see any of them diminished, especially in the public eye. My comments were not meant to be taken so personally but I can certainly see how you feel based on how they appear. Like the general press, posts here are often "spiced" to engender reaction and further discussion, not to mention attracting eyeballs to one's position. Choice of language may also reflect frustration or other feelings with the issues being addressed. I regret that my post caused you such consternation but also suggest you wax philosophically and let much of the emotional charge (but not the substance of the point) roll off your shoulders.
I am sure you realize that your Dad has placed himself in the sphere of a "public figure" with regard to some issues in our community. As a public figure, community impressions will be based on public information which may not fairly and/or fully represent the total person. It must be expected that there will be those who disagree with any given position or action, and that, especially, as Stephen points out, with the advent of the internet, those disagreements will be expressed in various ways. It is a hazard of these circumstances that such expressions will often "hit home".
Of course, Jax is also a city that has often been led astray by "people of influence" who have, at various levels, subverted the community's interest for their own. While this isn't necessarily so, as you claim in your Dad's case, that isn't always obvious to those from afar. And, regardless, there will always be those among us who remain skeptical that anyone is completely immune from guarding their personal pocketbook, being that we are all human.
As to posters, the converse is true as Stephen also notes. We are in many ways like the Dad you portray. Good people who have lived in Jax for many years or a lifetime and care passionately about our community. But, unlike your Dad, we are, for whatever reasons, not "at the table" or in a position to have our voices heard or weighted in most of the decisions being made by the "leaders" of this community. Over many years, this creates a certain frustration and disdain for those who do influence such decisions in a more direct fashion, both for the "unequal" representation and for the disapproval of many outcomes. In turn, this results in strenuous responses to what is observed and known publicly.
To bottom line it, your Dad may indeed be a wonderful and caring person. I don't doubt that. But, he has said, advocated, and or acted on some issues that have, fairly or unfairly, engendered opposing opinions and/or skepticism about his motives. That those opinions have been "spiced" up in their expression is an unfortunate byproduct but it is unlikely go away in this internet age.
I, for one, will be happy to apologize to you for any unintended personal offense and will offer to be more discerning (but, not necessarily less pointed) going forward. Just as your Dad may not be infallible in the public eye, neither may we.
Part II:
Mark, as to LaVilla and your Dad's role in it, the essence of my frustration is that he has contributed to the suburban type development of LaVilla. If he is indeed advocating for the urban environment that LaVilla was sold to us as being a part of, then why do we have office buildings such as his with no street facing interaction and surrounding surface lots not unlike the office parks on JTB that you, yourself, cited as contributing to the holding back of Downtown? As a professed downtown advocate" and an architect of your Dad's alleged stature, I would expect him to both take a more leading role on the insistence of good urban design for downtown as well as to set a leading example in his own developments. The contrast between words and actions here is what opens up Ted to criticism IMHO.
Re: residential, you and your Dad are entitled to your opinion, but if LaVilla is truly viewed as an urban area, I think it should accommodate residential mixed with other uses. And, I-95 shouldn't be a barrier given there are multitudes of residential communities backing up to the interstates in the suburbs already. With the right interface and design, this should not be an issue for LaVilla either. Again, if your Dad gets the urban thing, I just don't get how he reaches this conclusion.
Perhaps a living museum be created in this area consisting of one or two walkable streets with replicas of the historical buildings and businesses, some jazz clubs, hotels, restaurants, the fresh fruit stand mentioned earlier, etc., tied to the Ritz and the LaVilla School of Arts. A Colonial Williamsburg concept. There are pictures of the buildings....
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on May 26, 2010, 01:10:11 PM
Savannah nearly did become LaVilla. During the urban redevelopment craze a few decades ago, urban planners were all for knocking down the neglected old houses downtown and building new buildings. Fortunately, a group of fiery preservationists organized and won the day.
Lake, from your post, in my minds eye, I can see LaVilla, Durkeeville and Springfield surrounding a vital Klutho Park. No speedway Union and State, and no FSCJ and bus station cutting off Springfield from LaVilla and downtown. Long before now, with that ambiance, all those homes would have been restored, or on the way to it. Grants could have helped poorer families fix up their homes. We would have a vibrant downtown historic district that was second to none.
For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'. John Greenleaf Whittier
The Savannah College of Art & Design truly won the day for Savannah. The turned more condemned buildings into thriving productive buildings than anyone else in that city.
As someone who grew up in LaVilla, I am here to tell you what is there today is the hugest of all failures in Jacksonville. You think downtown is sleeping? LaVilla is dead!
Round em up, kick em out, move em away is what it seems happened. How in hell can he say that LaVilla is any type of success at all? What glass stem has he been smoking from? Empty lots, grass fields, fenced in empty lots, no people, no restaurants, no shops/stores of any kind = FAILURE!
I do believe that there is a foundation in LaVilla to work from. As one of the posters said, you've got the skyway station not far away, the Prime Osborne in the same area, Ritz Theatre, the Medical Facility/Building (or whatever it is that blocked off 4 or 5 streets which I disagree with). I feel that a few residential complexes (apartments, condos, and some small homes) should be built first which would then lure in restaurants, stores and othe small neighborhood retail to support the residential populace (whether private or big time), and then you will have a reawakened LaVilla!
"HU"
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 21, 2010, 02:08:42 PM
Quote from: JaxNative68 on May 21, 2010, 01:41:59 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on May 19, 2010, 10:29:39 PM
Why does Pappas think adding residential would be so deterimental? I don't get it? Does he only want more office buildings?
because he and a few partners own a lot of the land around his two medical office buildings and he wants to continue to expand on his mini office park cash cow with city incentives.
seems to me he and his partners have invested in LaVilla....not many others can say that right now.
Buying property and then sitting on it as empty lots and grassfields isn't my idea of an investment.
"HU"
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on May 26, 2010, 01:10:11 PM
Savannah nearly did become LaVilla. During the urban redevelopment craze a few decades ago, urban planners were all for knocking down the neglected old houses downtown and building new buildings. Fortunately, a group of fiery preservationists organized and won the day.
Lake, from your post, in my minds eye, I can see LaVilla, Durkeeville and Springfield surrounding a vital Klutho Park. No speedway Union and State, and no FSCJ and bus station cutting off Springfield from LaVilla and downtown. Long before now, with that ambiance, all those homes would have been restored, or on the way to it. Grants could have helped poorer families fix up their homes. We would have a vibrant downtown historic district that was second to none.
For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'. John Greenleaf Whittier
I agree Debbie; it took some years, but look at the success of Springfield? And Springfield was in much worse shape (if I remember correctly) than LaVilla as far as the rooming houses, drugs, prostitution, etc. was concerned. If our leaders had really sat down and used their noodle before reacting or acting negatively (without thinking), LaVilla could have gone in the same direction as Springfield...i.e., success versus failure; anyone agree?
"HU"