Metro Jacksonville

From the JAX Daily Record:

QuoteThe Riverside Arts Market has been such a success that City leaders are looking for ways to make it more accessible to boaters, but City Council members were concerned on Monday that plans for a floating dock weren’t more detailed.

Finance Committee members approved the proposed ordinance 4-3, but only after debate.

A request to appropriate nearly $400,000 from the Northbank Tax Increment District Fund to develop a floating, L-shaped dock attached to the Northbank Riverwalk so boaters could access the Riverside Arts Market from the river was presented to the Committee. Members were wary about signing off on an appropriation that they weren’t sure what the money would be spent on.

Committee member John Crescimbeni pointed out that there were different sizes listed for pilings in two different proposals present for the floating dock and he was frustrated that the plans were not more defined before funds were requested for the project.

“We are working with several different things,” said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. “The design also depends on where the budget is going to come out. We might shorten the docks if we are squeezed on price.”

The statement didn’t do much to ease Crescimbeni’s concerns.

“I would’ve thought if you were up here asking us for an appropriation, we would have been a lot closer to something more final,” said Crescimbeni. “You are getting ready to lose a vote here. I’m concerned we’re not more zeroed in on this.”

The concept for the floating dock was that it would be 210 feet long with a 60-foot-long gangway attached to the Northbank Riverwalk adjacent to the northern approach of the Fuller Warren Bridge.

Finance Chair Stephen Joost stepped down from his position to comment on the project and how it would affect future budget cycles.

“Normally, I support these kinds of bills,” said Joost. “With where the budget is, I’m going to vote no. I’m looking at the bigger picture. This money could be better used in funding something else, like our pension needs. That’s the biggest single liability the City has. Not having a floating dock isn’t going to bankrupt the City.”

The proposed ordinance was passed out of Committee by a 4-3 vote with Committee members Johnny Gaffney, Ray Holt, Denise Lee and Don Redman voting for it while Crescimbeni, Joost and Clay Yarborough voted against the bill. Vice Chair Bill Bishop abstained because he is a principal with Akel, Logan & Shafer, architects and planners and he stated there may be a potential business conflict for him with the project.

In other business, although Finance members were notified Monday of a tentative settlement with Waste Management Inc., the Committee unanimously approved increasing the special counsel fees should litigation continue.

The Office of General Counsel asked the Finance Committee Monday afternoon to make $1.2 million available to pay for special counsel to assist in pending litigation. It would be a $750,000 increase over the $450,000 already set aside.

Uh, Councilman Joost, I don't think Northbank Tax Increment funds can be used for the pension.  Angling for the Police/Fire Union vote next cycle?

While I love the market- the dock seems kinda dumb to me. I know you could bring a river taxi there but realistically, how many people would this dock really bring in on a given Saturday? It'd only really be usable one day a week and I think it would take forever to break even on it.

I don't really care about the pensions but I'm sure the money could be used on something that's not just a single day item for boaters.

Quote from: thekillingwax on March 17, 2010, 01:26:27 AM
While I love the market- the dock seems kinda dumb to me. I know you could bring a river taxi there but realistically, how many people would this dock really bring in on a given Saturday? It'd only really be usable one day a week and I think it would take forever to break even on it.

I don't really care about the pensions but I'm sure the money could be used on something that's not just a single day item for boaters.

1: As a demographic, boaters generally have more money than your average Joe. This is good for the arts market.

2: The best boating out there is a weekend morning, while everything's still calm. You're pretty much excluding tons of people from participating in RAM because there is currently no option to combine the two events. I bet the dock would wind up paying for itself in RAM sales.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 17, 2010, 09:53:33 AM

Quote from: thekillingwax on March 17, 2010, 01:26:27 AM
While I love the market- the dock seems kinda dumb to me. I know you could bring a river taxi there but realistically, how many people would this dock really bring in on a given Saturday? It'd only really be usable one day a week and I think it would take forever to break even on it.

I don't really care about the pensions but I'm sure the money could be used on something that's not just a single day item for boaters.

1: As a demographic, boaters generally have more money than your average Joe. This is good for the arts market.

2: The best boating out there is a weekend morning, while everything's still calm. You're pretty much excluding tons of people from participating in RAM because there is currently no option to combine the two events. I bet the dock would wind up paying for itself in RAM sales.

Wonder how many of those RAM merchants are collecting and paying sales tax?

QuoteWonder how many of those RAM merchants are collecting and paying sales tax?

All of them except the produce vendors who are not required to.  You do NOT want to mess with the Florida Division of Revenue people about sales taxes.  You would rather deal with Guido the Enforcer any day.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 16, 2010, 10:24:24 PM
Uh, Councilman Joost, I don't think Northbank Tax Increment funds can be used for the pension.  Angling for the Police/Fire Union vote next cycle?

Exactly! It's not like the $400K would solve the pension funds problem either. The education and pension shortfall need long term solutions not a bandaid.

First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

I could see spending maybe a few bucks for a simple tie up for the River Taxi at the bulkhead.  This would benefit RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general, and could be used daily by up to thousands of passengers.  But, dockage beyond that seems like an expensive waste.  It will never pay for itself, hardly be used, and take a lot of maintenance.  Also, given the location, I wouldn't be surprised if the water is too rough many times to make a nice spot for a marina.  The request for 60 foot connecting ramp may provide a clue on this.  Has anyone researched it?

Quote from: luis_D on March 17, 2010, 11:41:21 AM
First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

There is only one private dock near RAM which isn't very large at all. It could maybe accommodate the River Taxi.

Quote from: stjr on March 17, 2010, 11:48:34 AM
I could see spending maybe a few bucks for a simple tie up for the River Taxi at the bulkhead.  This would benefit RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general, and could be used daily by up to thousands of passengers.  But, dockage beyond that seems like an expensive waste.  It will never pay for itself, hardly be used, and take a lot of maintenance.  Also, given the location, I wouldn't be surprised if the water is too rough many times to make a nice spot for a marina.  The request for 60 foot connecting ramp may provide a clue on this.  Has anyone researched it?

A 200' dock is hardly a Marina... and wouldn't "RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general" also benefit from recreational boat traffic?

Quote from: luis_D on March 17, 2010, 11:41:21 AM
First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

A: I own a boat and I'd visit RAM in my boat.

B: There is no existing dock (that is not on private property, and I'm really not out to be trespassed) anywhere near the RAM site than can accommodate my boat.

C: The docks nearby are all private. If you want to get Fidelity or Haskell or whatnot to open their docks to the public for RAM, then that may be a solution. My understanding is that this was already broached, and that for liability purposes the companies showed no interest in participating.

Boaters try to use the three private docks along that section of river all the time, but they get chased away.  I think a dock under the bridge would be used almost every day.  The city could charge a docking fee, or provide some utilities for a fee, to help pay for the upkeep.  I'm not sure how that would be enforced though.  Perhaps they could use parking meters (or docking meters).

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 17, 2010, 12:04:31 PM

Quote from: luis_D on March 17, 2010, 11:41:21 AM
First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

A: I own a boat and I'd visit RAM in my boat.

B: There is no existing dock (that is not on private property, and I'm really not out to be trespassed) anywhere near the RAM site than can accommodate my boat.

C: The docks nearby are all private. If you want to get Fidelity or Haskell or whatnot to open their docks to the public for RAM, then that may be a solution. My understanding is that this was already broached, and that for liability purposes the companies showed no interest in participating.

There are other docks south of Memorial Park, which might still be able to be used if the owners were approached with some sort of compensation package. These docks would require that visitors walk through a good chunk of Riverside's commercial areas in order to get to RAM. Selling business leaders in Five Points on the dock idea might count for more when it comes to proposing this project to the council.

Haskell might be more approachable now that they are losing St. Joes but that is for the suits to figure out. 

The docks being private means that each owner has the flexibility to strike a deal for use with RAM. In whatever agreement that could be reached they could iron out any liability issues. Money would have to exchange hands between the dock owner and RAM, which means that it would need to be a good investment for RAM organizers.

At the end of the day I simply propose that research should be done to investigate whether or not a dock will make for a good business decision. After all, it is called Riverside Arts Market.

The idea of a millionaire homeowner turning over their private dock for public use is a stretch. Like Chris mentioned liability insurance needed would most likely be astronomical. I think you would find any of these docks both commercial & residential would need substantial improvements to handle the smallest boat traffic.

I'm kinda surprised by adversity towards the RAM water access improvement... $400K... is it really that much?

Quote from: Shwaz on March 17, 2010, 04:38:38 PM
I'm kinda surprised by adversity towards the RAM water access improvement... $400K... is it really that much?

It is when your "broke" and have hundreds of demands for the money that also make good cases for being prioritized and may have been in the hopper long before RAM came to be.

Quote from: Shwaz on March 17, 2010, 12:02:14 PM
...wouldn't "RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general" also benefit from recreational boat traffic?

Maybe, but enough to create an economic benefit to offset the costs?  Not so sure.  How many boats are we really talking about and how many times will the slips actually be used aside from weekends with near perfect weather?  Another 100 visitors to RAM when it gets 10,000 to 20,000 isn't going to make a noticable impact.

QuoteIt is when your "broke" and have hundreds of demands for the money that also make good cases for being prioritized and may have been in the hopper long before RAM came to be.

These funds are available. They were set aside from tax revenue generated from business in the immediate area... and again it's not that much money... not anything remotely near the amount to fix the entire city budget.

QuoteMaybe, but enough to create an economic benefit to offset the costs?  Not so sure.  How many boats are we really talking about and how many times will the slips actually be used aside from weekends with near perfect weather?  Another 100 visitors to RAM when it gets 10,000 to 20,000 isn't going to make a noticable impact.

Again the cost was offset when the city collected money to improve the immediate area.

Ask the Landing if they benefit from boater traffic.

Shwaz, by definition, funds can't be spent if they are not "available".  That isn't the issue.  It's what to spend them on!

From my observation, boats at the Landing are more eye candy for the landlubbers than business builders for the Landing.  Sure, it's nice to get a little more business here and there, but I'm sure it's not enough to make or break anyone at the Landing.

STJR incorrect  THE FUNDS ARE AVAILABLE

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=530477 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=530477)

QuoteWhile the City will build and pay for the dock, Barton explained the money isn’t coming out of the general fund. Instead, funds from the Downtown Tax Increment District will be used.

“This is a revenue stream paid into by Downtown property owners to be invested back into Downtown,” he said. “It’s Downtown-centric, Downtown-paid and the funds go back to Downtown.”

^Shwaz, you misread my post.  Read it again.  ::)

Casual observations on how money should be utilized should not be taken into consideration when deciding on how to spend taxpayer money.

I think noticing what boat traffic does for businesses at The Landing is a great starting point but from that people need to generate data that verifies/refutes the observation. RAM has an incredible group of volunteers that help Tony pull it off and my hat goes off to them.

I'd love to see boat traffic come to Riverside if it could benefit the community but I would be hard pressed to spend money on the project if I wasn't certain it was going to generate adequate foot traffic and thus dollars for local businesses. 

To me, it doesn't matter where the cash comes from.

If the expenditure doesn't yield results no one wins

and it is important to note that Tax Increment Funds are typically used for capital projects, not the operating budget (where the City has an pending deficit).

I'm a fan of extending the water taxi's service to RAM but the question of if this is the best use of the $400k is valid.  For example, would it be better to invest the money on smart meters or improving the lighting on a few streets within the heart of DT?  Does the city have a priority list for capital improvements within downtown's boundaries?  If so, where does this fit on that list and the overall visioning for the area?  If there is no priority list for the use of these funds, why not?

The timing for the floating dock at RAM couldn't be better for the city of Jacksonville. I support it and am encouraged by the questions being asked by Cresimbeni and Yarborough. These common sense questions will ultimately save us the taxpayers money by understanding the costs. Imagine any savings being transferred to the 680' Landmar pier.

I attended Waterways and Rules where this legislation was discussed. The economic impact for Downtown and the region will be huge in my opinion.

I would hope that as this project moves forward that the members of this forum will focus on a floating dock at the 680' Public pier at the former Landmar site. That's in District 7 and councilman Gaffney is on board to have one at that location. There was a floating dock there during Super Bowl XXXIX.


Both additional waterway access points will benefit the entire downtown. The Springfield group should be excited about this additional opportunity with the potential Landmar pier and its proximity to Hogans Creek.

There is so much more. I hope the entire council supports the floating dock at RAM. The big story is what is the open competitive bid process and the taxpayer knowing what a real cost is to this tangible asset for the people of Jacksonville.

Again pats on the back to Cresimbeni and Yarborough whose questions will ultimately get us a better product.

Without debate, the City Council voted last night -- I believe it was 14 to 3 -- to pay for the dock at RAM. It still must get all of the final river permits.

Not convinced this will be the economic boon painted versus its cost but, more importantly, using the $$$ to save the Riverside Avenue fire station should have been covered first.

using the taxpayers $ argument...there are many more people who attend RAM than would use the firehouse.

How many more?

Another way to look at it, if the fire house isn't saved now, it is gone forever; if the floating dock isn't built now, it can be built later - maybe next year - and RAM won't be any the worse.

Wonder if any of our artistic types... JASON? LAKE? STEPHENDARE? Could move that building across the street and make it the Brooklyn Skyway Terminal in a rendering? It would be freaking awesome to see JTA do something that progressive and just think of the possible mixed uses... Station + news stand + museum + art studio + coffee Shop + "The 3 Alarms Club" + + + + ??

If we do this with the old fire station, move it across the street on the southwest corner of Riverside and Forest, landscape the lot and plan for a couple of bus lanes. Remodel the inside to accommodate several businesses, and add the Skyway Platforms overhead. If this was to fly, it would bode well for other locations such as the Skyway + Annie Lytle.

Let's not just save it, let's give her another 100 years of purpose, all it takes is a little Imagineering!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: luis_D on March 17, 2010, 11:41:21 AM
First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

From what I've seen with my near-virgin eyes, Id expect paying a consultant to conduct such a survey to cost nearly the same amount as just building the dock. And the consultant would surely then make sure that the results favored building the dock...so we'd have the same result for double the cost  ;)

Quote from: luis_D on March 17, 2010, 06:24:03 PM
Casual observations on how money should be utilized should not be taken into consideration when deciding on how to spend taxpayer money.

Yeah, god forbid, I mean really...you don't want to listen to those taxpayers when spending taxpayer money.

That would just be horrible! LMAO!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
using the taxpayers $ argument...there are many more people who attend RAM than would use the firehouse.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't support saving the firehouse more.

I was the biggest one arguing for the dock in here, but when someone brought up the fact that the money was enough to move the firehouse to safety, I immediately recognized that it is better spent on the firehouse. Once lost, that's gone forever. B&W Marine will still be more than happy to build us a dock a year or two from now, when the firehouse is already saved.

Seems like a no-brainer, even to a boater who'd like to have a public dock available in Riverside.

does anyone have the latest info on the status of the fire station?  If so, perhaps a new thread to raise awareness of that issue is appropriate

The new dock at RAM will be a very cool addition to the river.  It must be looked at as just one small part of the goal of getting Jacksonville using it's greatest asset in a positive and public way.  The biggest risk to it being used is any rules or polices adopted by the city for its use.  Some of the other city owned docks are sitting under utilized due to city polices. We'll see what they do with this one.

Saving the fire station is a great goal, but as it is a commercial structure, I would think you need to have a specific use in mind, like Ock has suggested, to make it happen.

to me this dock should be used for more than just saturdays for the RAM it could serve as a linkage for 5 points/Brooklyn to the core

The problem with the firehouse situation is that historic preservation is the primary reason to save it (a worthy goal, btw). Yet, according to established historic preservation guidelines, physically moving the structure is extremely undesirable and not recommended. So you have a classic Catch-22. The only way to preserve the building is to move it, but to move it undermines the value of preserving it. Jax has faced this problem with both the Merrill House and Brewster Hospital, and a lot of people even at the historical society questioned the value of moving these structures.

Anyway, regarding the dock: There's absolutely no need to study market demand for another public dock. The demand exists. The docks at the landing are swamped on weekends and during event.

The problem with the dock though, is I don't think that it will do one bit of good for businesses surrounding RAM (E.G. 5-Points businesses.) Because those people that boat up from, say, Julington creek, Doctors, or wherever aren't going to be venturing out past the arts market. They're going to go to RAM, maybe buy some crap, then go up to the landing to booze up or continue fishing.

While that may encourage people to go to the landing, I don't think this will spur any watershed change in the patronage of local businesses.

But isn't there talk (or a plan) around getting RAM extended toward 5 Points or the park?  More specifically, making the area more walkable under the bridge on the opposite side of the street.  And then there's the possible extension of the Riverwalk at that location (one day?).  I suppose though, the other thing to consider is that Monday-Friday, that area is simply a parking lot.

For it or against it (for now), I think that this was pushed through quicker than anything in recent memory.  On a positive note, maybe some folks can consider taking their boat to work now  ;)....

Design concept approved for new dock on Northbank Riverwalk

QuoteIf you're a boater who likes to navigate the St. Johns River near Downtown, you're a step closer to having another location to tie up along the Northbank Riverwalk.
The Downtown Development Review Board of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission granted conceptual approval for a floating dock to be constructed neat the Fuller Warren Bridge. The project is consistent with the City's Downtown Action Plan, said JEDC Executive Director Ron Barton.
“We want to enhance marine linkages and better engage the boating community with Downtown. Having this dock will attract that community,” he said.
Barton told board members that the Riverside Arts Market near the dock’s location is “wildly successful” and attracts up to 20,000 people each Saturday.
Landscape architect Kevin White made the formal presentation on behalf of HDR Engineering. He said the dock will be 200 feet long with a gangway consistent with other floating docks in use Downtown.
When asked if the dock would be used only on Saturdays when the market is operating, he replied that the area under the ramp to the bridge, which is close to the Riverside, Avondale and Ortega neighborhoods, is “used as a park area.”
It was also noted use of the dock by boaters will conform with existing regulations governing other Downtown docks, including no use at night between sundown and sunup and no water supply or electricity will be available.
In addition to its proximity to the market, the location also was chosen because it is adjacent to Lender Processing Services on the Fidelity Campus. Private security is on the property around the clock and Barton said the service would be able to “keep an eye on the dock and let us know” if police or marine patrol officers needed to respond to any situations.
Part of the approved concept is enhanced signage warning boaters of danger to manatees. That also will educate children who attend the market about the marine mammals.
White said that there will be 11 to 13 feet of water depth on the outside docking area and seven to eight feet on the inside. The dock is designed for up to 10 20-foot vessels to tie up simultaneously. Because of its length, it does not require a submerged lands lease from the state.
The dock has already been approved by the Jacksonville Waterways Commission and City Council passed an ordinance Tuesday to fund the $396,000 project with an appropriation from the Northbank Tax Increment District Fund.
DDRB also granted an extension of final approval to February 2011 for the Southshore Marina and Riverwalk project for a public marina on the Southbank at the Aetna Building.
The board gave the project the green light in February 2008, said attorney John Campbell with Pappas Metcalf Jenks & Miller. The project has not begun because of market and economic conditions.
He was asked when he thinks the project might be started. “We’re dealing with economic reality and it’s a financing issue. I don’t have an answer to that question,” he said.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=530602

Quote from: RiversideLoki on March 25, 2010, 01:43:01 PM
The problem with the dock though, is I don't think that it will do one bit of good for businesses surrounding RAM (E.G. 5-Points businesses.) Because those people that boat up from, say, Julington creek, Doctors, or wherever aren't going to be venturing out past the arts market. They're going to go to RAM, maybe buy some crap, then go up to the landing to booze up or continue fishing.

While that may encourage people to go to the landing, I don't think this will spur any watershed change in the patronage of local businesses.

One thing that RAP is trying to do is leverage RAM's success to draw people deeper into the district.  A downloadable MP3 audio walking tour of the St. Johns Historic Quarter (starting from RAM) is soon to be completed, and then a walking tour reconstruction of the "Lost Row" is next.  A smart phone application that allows you to point your phone at various prospects in Riverside and Memorial Parks and see vintage photos of the same vista, as well as detailed content, will (hopefully) be available by May. Editorial content is being prepared that will showcase the neighborhood outside RAM, as are improvements to the RAP booth at RAM, which will reflect not just the neighborhood's history and architecture, but also its rich cultural, entertainment and dining options.

None of this means the dock at RAM will immediately become a destination on days other than Saturday, but RAP is aware of the opportunity to create new reasons to come here. A really cool "Neighborhood As Art" exhibit at The Cummer launching in June of next year should also help drive interest.

Suggestions for other creative endeavors to bring people to this urban core dock are welcome.

^So, grimss, did RAP discuss the fire station's preservation and whether that should take precedence over the dock?  Is RAP doing anything to support the fire station's preservation?

Yes, RAP has been active behind the scenes in trying to work out some sort of solution with council members, surrounding landowners, and an interested party in Fernandina (who wants to headquarter his contracting business at the station). It has also promoted the Save Old Firehouse #5 effort on both its home page and Facebook pages. Unfortunately, the Fire Station is located just outside the RA historic district boundaries, so some of RAP's usual arguments about ordinance-protected structures don't prevail in this instance.

Personally, I think the mood among people in the know (which isn't really me, at least in terms of the latest info) is that the city just isn't willing to wage the preservation fight on this one. They just don't equate the $ to build the dock with $ that could spent on saving the Fire House. Definitely regrettable.

Given RAM's apparent political clout, I wonder, if they had requested the $400K to renovate the fire station as their permanent offices or in some other RAM supporting role, if the priorities would have been different.  It would be a nice gesture and possibly more beneficial for RAM's long term interests for RAM leadership to consider this.  AS already mentioned, they could always work on the dock later.

This is messed up thinking on the part of the COJ. The park needs access and access equals transportation, transportation has it's own bucket of funds which grants could be requested for. JTA has a water taxi plan, and it's not hard to see how this, along with a stop at Baptist Medical Center, and at the foot of both Margaret Street, and Landon Avenue, would impliment both the new services as well as provide the needed space for boater access to RAM, as well as to 5-POINTS and SAN MARCO. Business revenues would jump up on the weekend and the site once discovered by the power boat and fishing magazines and shows, could become a national model.

The Firehouse is another project. While it COULD BE rolled into the Skyway with very little effort, AND FUNDED, it could also go the historical grant route. Regardless of what we think about the sanctity of the ground it sits on, a big dog wants that ground for their own purposes, and we agreed to it through representation. Can't go back on that deal and blacken our relocation eye with other companies. So move the damn building and let's do something positive with it. Why not under the bridge at RAM? Why not a Skyway TOD terminal? Why not a museum? Restaurant? Studio? Gallery? Crafts Mall? Just why the hell NOT?? (toss in the accent of Mac over at SPAR) Damn Jacksonville! Just DAMN!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on March 26, 2010, 07:52:28 PM
Given RAM's apparent political clout, I wonder, if they had requested the $400K to renovate the fire station as their permanent offices or in some other RAM supporting role, if the priorities would have been different.  It would be a nice gesture and possibly more beneficial for RAM's long term interests for RAM leadership to consider this.  AS already mentioned, they could always work on the dock later.

I doubt the idea of spending city $ to move station #5 to benefit a private organization (RAP)-- albeit a non-profit 503-c org--would get very far in today's economic climate.

Grabbed this from: http://theurbancoredotcom.blogspot.com/ (http://theurbancoredotcom.blogspot.com/)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                               Contact:  Ben Pennymon, (904) 535-6257, benp@coj.net

                                                           

Mayor Peyton Signs Floating Dock Legislation at Riverside Arts Market



JACKSONVILLE, Fla., March 26, 2010 â€" Mayor John Peyton will be joined by Council member Michael Corrigan and members of the Riverside Arts Market (RAM) and the St. Johns Riverkeeper as he signs legislation approving the development of a floating dock on the northern end of the Northbank Riverwalk.



WHEN:          Saturday, March 27

11 a.m.

                                     

WHERE:       Riverside Arts Market

                        715 Riverside Ave. -- 32204

                        Note: Ceremony will take place on the main stage at RAM.

           

            WHO:             Jacksonville Mayor John Peyton

                                    District 14 City Council Member Michael Corrigan

                                    Tony Allegretti, director, Riverside Arts Market

                                    Wayne Wood, founder, Riverside Avondale Preservation

                                    Neil Armingeon, St. Johns Riverkeeper

                                    Ron Barton, director, Jacksonville Economic Development Commission



The proposed 210 foot-long L-shaped floating dock will be used by boaters looking to access the area surrounding RAM from the St. Johns River.



The signing is a part of the River Day Celebration hosted by the St. Johns Riverkeeper and on-going activities at the Riverside Arts Market. It is intended to highlight the significance of one of Jacksonville’s most valued natural resources and the importance of providing access to the river at varying points.



###





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Ben Pennymon

Media Relations Officer

City of Jacksonville

Ph. (904) 630-3426

Cell (904) 535-6257

Fax (904) 630-2910

benp@coj.net



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Where would one move the Firehouse along Riverside?  All the land is privately owned - except a small fenced in lot across the street from FH5 that says "DOT" on the fence - but it doesn't look big enough for the FH.  The land under the bridge is used by Fidelity for parking during the week. 

The Firehouse is another project. While it COULD BE rolled into the Skyway with very little effort, AND FUNDED, it could also go the historical grant route. Regardless of what we think about the sanctity of the ground it sits on, a big dog wants that ground for their own purposes, and we agreed to it through representation. Can't go back on that deal and blacken our relocation eye with other companies. So move the damn building and let's do something positive with it. Why not under the bridge at RAM? Why not a Skyway TOD terminal? Why not a museum? Restaurant? Studio? Gallery? Crafts Mall? Just why the hell NOT?? (toss in the accent of Mac over at SPAR) Damn Jacksonville! Just DAMN! [/b]


OCKLAWAHA


What I've heard from people who should know is that Fidelity is going to give the land back to the City once the fire station is demolished.  I wish someone would dig into this.  If this is true, then Fidelity isn't the bad guy in this instance.  To move the fire station under the bridge is really cost prohibitive as it would have to be cut in half to fit under the bridge.  The best place to relocate it is somewhere in Brooklyn. 


[/quote]

Quote from: grimss on March 26, 2010, 09:29:12 PM
I doubt the idea of spending city $ to move station #5 to benefit a private organization (RAP)-- albeit a non-profit 503-c org--would get very far in today's economic climate.

Grimss, if you are already wet, why get out of the rain?  The dock $$$ are doing what you state above for RAM.  And they were readily found and approved.  At this point, my query regarded priorities, not the funding.

Quote from: Noone on March 18, 2010, 07:39:54 AM
The timing for the floating dock at RAM couldn't be better for the city of Jacksonville. I support it and am encouraged by the questions being asked by Cresimbeni and Yarborough. These common sense questions will ultimately save us the taxpayers money by understanding the costs. Imagine any savings being transferred to the 680' Landmar pier.

I attended Waterways and Rules where this legislation was discussed. The economic impact for Downtown and the region will be huge in my opinion.

I would hope that as this project moves forward that the members of this forum will focus on a floating dock at the 680' Public pier at the former Landmar site. That's in District 7 and councilman Gaffney is on board to have one at that location. There was a floating dock there during Super Bowl XXXIX.


Both additional waterway access points will benefit the entire downtown. The Springfield group should be excited about this additional opportunity with the potential Landmar pier and its proximity to Hogans Creek.

There is so much more. I hope the entire council supports the floating dock at RAM. The big story is what is the open competitive bid process and the taxpayer knowing what a real cost is to this tangible asset for the people of Jacksonville.

Again pats on the back to Cresimbeni and Yarborough whose questions will ultimately get us a better product.

3 years later. The RAM dock can only be used when RAM is open. Not Good.
2 days out from the 30 day RFI on Shipyards III. Will the Public Floating dock that is at Shipyards III be exempt from this RFI?
Where is Tony Allegretti and Paul Crawford on this?
The Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel, Berkman Floating dock compromise misrepresented by OGC to Waterways during the 2013 FIND grant application process. Who should be disbarred?
Palms Fish Camp, 8 years later next to a FIND project.
Special Waterways meeting for the Artificial Reef subcommittee 5/29/13 9:30 4Th floor city hall. Backroom deals?
Palmer Terrace Park and a mayor Brown kayak logo.
4/27/13 River City Challenge two years in a row and no presentations to anyone.
Given up asking you know who about you know what.
The Public Trust just destroyed.
Visit Jacksonville???????

I am Downtown and why you aren't.

The RAM floating dock is only open when RAM is open because of concerns Florida Fish & Wildlife Commission has regarding manatees.  That area has a high concentration of manatees and they did not want to increase motorized boat traffic above a certain level.  This was a condition of the permit.

At a recent Waterways meeting commissioner Stephen Swann asked Dr. White about the permitting of docks and the correlation of Manatee deaths and the ban on the permitting has been lifted. The reason is that the deaths of manatees still exceeding the magic number of 5 that was used as the guideline. The difference is that the deaths are being attributed to Natural as opposed to motorized causes. I welcome any correction to this but Doug it appears the concerns have been lifted.

When this happened I don't know. Don't recall seeing anything or reading anything about it. All of a sudden it seems that everything is good and a go all over Duval county for dock building. Projects use to come before Waterways but now don't. Any idea of the massive dock project at I believe it's Jackies on the Trout River as one example.

So if everything is now hunky dory then put the Mayor Brown kayak logo on the RAM dock along with a bicycle rack and unlock the gate and open the River along with this Public Access from the Waterway to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our newly created highly restricted DIA zone.

Tomorrow is the last day for the RFI on Shipyards III which only has a 30 day window. At the 5/3/13 Downtown Experience subcommittee meeting of the DIA I asked Tony Allegretti and Paul Crawford if anyone pulled up to the PUBLIC floating dock at Shipyards could they use it and it was a big NO! NO! Should this Public Floating dock be outside this RFI? I'd say yes.

The Public Trust just crushed. And let's not forget the Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel, Berkman Floating dock compromise misrepresented by OGC to Waterways during the 2013 FIND grant application process. Who should be disbarred? This is our ad valorem property tax revenue. Commissioners of FIND. We are LOST?

Pick and choose the winners and losers.

Downtown a Destination? Only if you can access it.

QuoteSo if everything is now hunky dory then put the Mayor Brown kayak logo on the RAM dock along with a bicycle rack and unlock the gate and open the River along with this Public Access from the Waterway to our St. Johns River

There are a couple launches on the other side of the river (Southbank)- are you opposed to using those or something?