Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2010, 10:19:39 PM
WHY ALL THE DRAMA? SPRINGFIELD IS EATING MJ!
Though I'm an urbanest, current invested in the burbs due to economic opportunities, we have looked downtown several times. Springfield has a few possible places I have seen and one that I rather like, but I suppose my grandson would have to attend First Baptist or some other private school. Springfield has some lovely old schools until you see that the principal has driven to the school in an M-1 Abrams Tank. Okay, just kidding, but does ANYONE send their kids to the local schools? OCKLAWAHA
A lot of Springfield residents send their kids to the local schools. If they are elementary age, you have the option of four different magnet programs. Brentwood is focused on the arts, Andrew Robinson is a math and science magnet, John E. Ford offers a Spanish Immersion Montessori program, and R.L. Brown is an I.B. school, which feeds into Darnell Cookman and James Weldon Johnson middle schools. These are the two magnet middle schools (located close to downtown) that most families in Duval County try to get their kids into because they consistently receive A grades. La Villa school of the arts is right downtown as well and is an excellent school. Darnell Cookman, James Weldon Johnson, and La Villa feed into Stanton, Paxson, and Douglas Anderson School of the Arts respectively, all of which are grade A high schools located near downtown.
So, if you live in Springfield, there are a lot of great public school options available. Many Duval County residents spend a significant amount of time driving or bussing their children into the downtown area in order to be able to attend these schools.
Darnell Cookman is transitioning inot both a middle AND highschool, btw, which is AMAZING.
They are adding a grade each year, think they're at 10th this year.....
My daughter attends Andrew Robinson now, and hopefully (fingers crossed) will get into Brentwood next year. If not, well AR's engineering program is great too! I drop and pick her up everyday and have never seen any tanks...well protective tanks anyway LOL!
OCK,
"I've heard that several people have wanted to open new businesses along Main Street, but SPAR has disapproved of either them, their business, or their plan..."
- instead of basing an opinion on what you've "heard", why don't you simply call and ask them. Or attend one of many public meetings.
Or ask Fusion, A&A Auto Repair, Uptown, Valerios, City Kidz, Wafaa & Mikes, Three Layers, Tommy's, Hola, H&R Block, Shifters, 3rd & Main Apartments, American Celebrity Fashions Botique, Tropical Island Cafe, An Olde Time Hardware, Carolina Lumber, Pasco, Fortec, etc is Spar Council is anti-business.
Spar also produces & distributes the only business flyer in the neighbrohood as well, so that residents can support thier local businesses.
"Hell just a year ago, this entire sight went mad over someone leaving a "Room for rent" flier in a local Springfield Gas Station."
- Yea, I started that thread. That BP was supposed to "get it", meaning they weren't going to contribute to the problems in the neighborhorhood. Rather they would be part of the solution. That was the buzz. So when it began to deteriorate, it was very disppaointing. Since that time it's been the subject of many neighbors and JSO's scorn.
"SPAR was all about kicking out the riff-raff which seems to be defined as your tired, your poor, your hungry, or your huddled masses."
- you need to find another source for your information. wherever you are forming your perception from (let me guess.....) is not reality.
"Yeah, yeah, yeah, I live out in St. Johns, and you know what? If someone wanted to reopen or build a car wash, and sell coke and chips my whole neighborhood would welcome them and turn out for the opening day "hot dogs and balloons.""
- different neighborhoods have different issues. St. Johns County and Historic Springfield have little in common.
"If SPAR can't do the same in Springfield, someone needs to ask why? Doesn't that suggest that deep down the very organization itself suspects almost anyone and everyone as a possible code breaking blight on the community. Yet way out here in the boondocks we'd be throwing a party because we could BUY coke and chips without having to drive 8 miles."
- different neighborhoods have different issues. not sure why you are speaking about issues to which you are not familar with. St. Johns County has a dearth of convenience stores. Historic Springfield has an abundance of poorly maintained ones that contribute to many negative issues in the area. See the difference? Finding a balance between naive & suspect is important. Again, St. Johns County and Historic Springfield issue's are very different.
It's clear, and I think you would admit, you are not very familair with Springfield's issues. If you'd like to get a real understanding of what Spar has been, is currently, and will be involved in....please attend one of the various public meetings or give the office a call. The organization has done a terrible job of communicating all that they do and thier value, which is being addressed. The next Board meeting, which are all open to the public, is Monday the 8th @ 7pm.
Please attend. Ask questions. Get involved.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2010, 10:19:39 PM
WHY ALL THE DRAMA? SPRINGFIELD IS EATING MJ!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I live out in St. Johns, and you know what? If someone wanted to reopen or build a car wash, and sell coke and chips my whole neighborhood would welcome them and turn out for the opening day "hot dogs and balloons." If SPAR can't do the same in Springfield, someone needs to ask why? Doesn't that suggest that deep down the very organization itself suspects almost anyone and everyone as a possible code breaking blight on the community. Yet way out here in the boondocks we'd be throwing a party because we could BUY coke and chips without having to drive 8 miles. We'd celebrate the new neighbors, the new business, the new convenience, and toast their success... Are the people in Springfield REALLY that different? Someone please explain to me why if the neighborhood is so safe and attractive, everyone is so suspect?
As I too live in St. Johns, we are not Springfield. We are a different breed, so you can not expect the same way of thinking or treatment of others and new business.
QuoteFusion, A&A Auto Repair, Uptown, Valerios, City Kidz, Wafaa & Mikes, Three Layers, Tommy's, Hola, H&R Block, Shifters, 3rd & Main Apartments, American Celebrity Fashions Botique, Tropical Island Cafe, An Olde Time Hardware, Carolina Lumber, Pasco, Fortec, etc is Spar Council is anti-business.
Tommy's has been in business for close to 30 years or more, and spar had nothing what so ever to do with his opening or staying in business. Nor can spar be given credit for Carolina Lumber, Pasco, Fortec, Olde Time Hardware or Shifters, these places have been there for as long, long time. As for A&A repair, Mike took over an existing business, as did Waffas (Mikes wife) and Holas.
Now Three Layers needed an exception and I don't know if spar was instrumental in helping with that or not. I know that they endorsed Uptown and the apartments behind it, as well as City Kidz ice cream.
I'm not saying that spar has or has not endorsed those businesses, but I don't see where they get credit for those businesses being there either. There is currently an issue with the car wash reopening, which IMO, spar hasn't exactly endorsed. I'm not trying to discredit spar, but let's be realistic about what credit they've earned.
QuoteSpar also produces & distributes the only business flyer in the neighbrohood as well, so that residents can support thier local businesses
Whom do they distribute this to? I can't recall ever seeing one.
This is frustrating.....why are you arguing about something that wasn't stated?
I never said they were responsble for every businesses' existance.
I said "ask them if they think Spar is anti-busness", and please do.
The business info is distributed in thier news letter, which can picked up at various locations in the neighborhood and is mailed to most members (though i've never received them, there's some hitch in the syetem I think). Some business info is also included in thier weekly email newsletter.
I could go on about other Spar initiatives that benefit local businesses too, if you like......just ask. =)
FSU813, I wasn't arguing, I'm pointing out that you make appear as if spar's responsible for those businesses being here...and you always give them credit for which they've not earned. My point is that let's give a more realistic view, and most of which has nothing what so ever to do with spar.
QuoteSuccessful economic integration requires working with the market, not against
it.
Their mantra is: “If someone is good enough
to work here, they ought to be good enough to live here.â€
Above all, political success requires convincing citizens that the affordable units
will not harm property values.
And I will ask again for someone with SPAR Council to explain how their polices support the above comments, which are from a study to which your “marketing expert†board person says she subscribes to.
It is difficult to “listen†to some SPAR Council supporter claim they are “business friendly†when we all have seen the proof that they are “business friendly†only when it is a business “they†deem worthy using some unknown but to them policy, and if it is not deemed worthy, they use innuendo and misinformation to either belittle it and the owners or to try to stop it from being opened.
The above quotes from that posted study are very true and we all need to begin to believing in what it really says, not some contrived misinterpretation of it. The only way to a successful Springfield community is to have one that is all inclusive and embraces it’s issue with open arms and minds. You accomplish that by working together and not against each other. That does take open communication rather than secret meetings and calls to code enforcement and issuing “red alertsâ€. SPAR Council may not even be able to do that at this point, but I know the real residents, the ones that moved here for a true community that is all inclusive and full of very different and vibrant people can and will.
Quote from: fsu813 on March 06, 2010, 01:46:30 PM
This is frustrating.....why are you arguing about something that wasn't stated?
I never said they were responsble for every businesses' existance.
I said "ask them if they think Spar is anti-busness", and please do.
The business info is distributed in thier news letter, which can picked up at various locations in the neighborhood and is mailed to most members (though i've never received them, there's some hitch in the syetem I think). Some business info is also included in thier weekly email newsletter.
I could go on about other Spar initiatives that benefit local businesses too, if you like......just ask. =)
You posted a list of businesses and said "Why don't you ask..." to find out how helpful SPAR is, and SPAR had nothing to do with most of them. Almost every name on of your list was around decades before SPAR even came into existence. Ridiculous.
Quote from: fsu813 on March 06, 2010, 08:55:02 AM
Or ask Fusion, A&A Auto Repair, Uptown, Valerios, City Kidz, Wafaa & Mikes, Three Layers, Tommy's, Hola, H&R Block, Shifters, 3rd & Main Apartments, American Celebrity Fashions Botique, Tropical Island Cafe, An Olde Time Hardware, Carolina Lumber, Pasco, Fortec, etc if Spar Council is anti-business.....
...The next Board meeting, which are all open to the public, is Monday the 8th @ 7pm.
Please attend. Ask questions. Get involved.
&
Quote from: fsu813 on March 06, 2010, 01:46:30 PM
I said "ask them if they think Spar is anti-busness", and please do.
I could go on about other Spar initiatives that benefit local businesses too, if you like......just ask. =)
And we said that the list of businesses you posted, spar had nothing to do with, yet you list them as if it did...it's not like spar helped, endorsed or promoted them, most were already there...so why are you making it seem like spar is at all involved with their existence? Whether or not spar likes those businesses or not, is totally irrelevant to whether or not spar is business friendly.
(sigh)
So, the schools in and around Springfield ROCK!
The schools should be better marketed as a benefit to living in the neighborhood. Too many people (especially suburbanites) assume that all of the schools in the urban core are bad.
I have to ask, if the local public schools rock, then why is it stated in the most recent "SPAR Speaks" that some are going to try to start a new school? Ummm.
http://www.youtube.com/v/SYxvVe9y5NQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
Thanks for the efforts at clarification, I think I get the school situation...? Grade Schools okay, Middle Schools and High Schools... find a magnet or private academy. That would seem to indicate that Springfield is okay for the average 4 year old, but if your kid is 14?
I also mentioned the filth I saw on Main Street in a doorway, right in the middle of the restored streetscape area, and I wasn't kidding about the garbage at Hogan's Creek, and the park walks with piles of fecal matter. Or the welcoming commitiee at the VA clinic with the ticket books ready for our disabled patriots. Does Spar or the Spartans? do anything about this?? What is done and when?
Honest I was thinking of putting a miniature railroad in one of the parks, but I don't want a railroad with a name like, "Hogan's Creek, Shit Pile and Oblivion RY."
Inquiring minds want to know....
OCKLAWAHA
Does Kirby Smith count as being in Springfield? My daughter magnet into there and it was a great school. That was 3yrs ago though.
Okc, you already know, as it's been discussed at length, the problem with Hogan Creek. It's been nasty for years and years. However, most days the parks are fairly clean, and most of the reason can be credited to the neighbors. We'll pick up the trash around it, but nobody to my knowledge actually goes into the creek to pull trash out. Most of this is a direct result of the vagrant persons who sleep under the bridges that cross the creek, and then trash our parks and creek.
Until something is done to resolve this major issue, we'll continue to have our parks trashed, we'll continue to have these people defecating in the parks and creek. With all the shelters and 'support' facilities for the vagrants so close to our neighborhood, when they're made to leave for the day, many wander back here. There's also those who either don't get to the shelter for a bed, on time, or don't even try...they're the ones sleeping here.
As for the trash on Main street, we all work at that the best we can also. However, when there's a high volume of persons that are either homeless or don't care, then yes, they'll toss their trash wherever they want. Trash on the streets isn't happening just in Springfield, and it's unfair to make a statement as if it were. Go anywhere in the city and you'll find trash strewn about.
There is a large concrete & pebble trash can outside of the store on Main. It hasn't been emptied in weeks. People stack their trash on top of the can and it blows away. I watch it everyday. I don't think anyone is using it for their personal trash, but it does accumulate from the walk-bys.
There isn't any can inside and no top. So, when they do come to dump it, the guys have to stick their arms inside and pull the trash out. Sometimes it seems that it would be better not to even have a trash can like that around if it is never going to be dumped.
I wonder how many times this scenario is repeated on Main Street?
sheclown.........since the City is not does not appear to want to do their job, maybe SPAR could step up to the plate and perform that service on Main Street? Talk about doing the community a service......show me!
Quote from: strider on March 06, 2010, 09:41:17 PM
I have to ask, if the local public schools rock, then why is it stated in the most recent "SPAR Speaks" that some are going to try to start a new school? Ummm.
The elementary schools SPR is zoned for are rated very low. That's why.
The middle-schools & highschools aren't as much of an issue.
Quote from: Hypocrite on March 07, 2010, 12:46:47 AM
Does Kirby Smith count as being in Springfield? My daughter magnet into there and it was a great school. That was 3yrs ago though.
Yes, it is in SPR, and it's still a great school.
Ock,
Actually, I think don't think Main Street accumulates very much trash. Perhaps you found it on a bad day.
I've never actually walked along Hogans Creek, just visited the various parks. Trash is an issue in some of them, others (the one's people visit often) it's not. Least from what i've observed.
You should try walking along Hogans Creek. Although the historic greenway is rarely visible in certain spots, there are little areas that give you the impression of what it used to be like during the park's heyday.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568923657_hLRgh-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568923953_fq9Hi-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568922148_A4ANm-M.jpg)
Sheclown those concrete and pebble trash collectors were put in place by the Woman's Club about 20 years ago when Louise Livingstone was very active. They originally had a round metal bin inside with a handle and lid. Those inserts are long gone. I will buy a box of large garbage bags. What day is you garbage pickup, before then I will come and empty the bin and insert a liner. Maybe after that someone at the store, could simply pull out the liner on garbage day and insert a fresh one. The city does not pick up the lose stuff and I cannot blame them.
I would be happy to do whatever we can.
Quote from: fsu813 on March 07, 2010, 09:10:59 AM
Quote from: strider on March 06, 2010, 09:41:17 PM
I have to ask, if the local public schools rock, then why is it stated in the most recent "SPAR Speaks" that some are going to try to start a new school? Ummm.
The elementary schools SPR is zoned for are rated very low. That's why.
The middle-schools & highschools aren't as much of an issue.
No children I presume....
We are part of the Inspiration Networka nd can attend any of the Inspiration Schoools. So Brentwood, RV Daniels, Andrew Robinson, Edwards, and Ford are all rated poorly????
Do NOT put down our existing resources as a defense for whatever is posted in the SPAR newsletter-jeesh
Quote from: chris farley on March 07, 2010, 10:22:09 AM
The city does not pick up the lose stuff and I cannot blame them.
I can and do. There are many functions that separate us from third world countries, first and foremost being cleanliness. If the city cannot even supply a clean environment, including our waterways, sewer systems, storm drains, and pick up the damn trash then we are doomed.
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 07, 2010, 12:13:11 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on March 07, 2010, 09:10:59 AM
Quote from: strider on March 06, 2010, 09:41:17 PM
I have to ask, if the local public schools rock, then why is it stated in the most recent "SPAR Speaks" that some are going to try to start a new school? Ummm.
The elementary schools SPR is zoned for are rated very low. That's why.
The middle-schools & highschools aren't as much of an issue.
No children I presume....
We are part of the Inspiration Network and can attend any of the Inspiration Schoools. So Brentwood, RV Daniels, Andrew Robinson, Edwards, and Ford are all rated poorly????
Do NOT put down our existing resources as a defense for whatever is posted in the SPAR newsletter-jeesh
(double sigh)
I'm not. Stop being so paranoid.
Here are the school grades since 1999: http://www.duvalschools.org/reseval/DistrictPerformance/2009/OFFICIAL_2009_SCHOOL_GRADES_Sch_Alpha.pdf
Last 3 years of each....
Brentwood: D,B,C
Robinson: A,C,C
Ford: B,D,C
Didn't see Daniels or Edwards
As you can see, they've been up & down. Unpredictable I guess. While I personally wouldn't have a problem having my kids attend one or all of them, I can understand why somebody could look at that and pass.
Ok. Anyone with children in any of these schools, or who had toured any of these schools would understand.
During my tour of Brentwood I saw no less than sixteen children coming in with parents late (it was 9:45 in the morning!) asking for excuses (you get your bennies cut if your kids aren't in school on time on a regular basis). They were all habitual in their practices as the admin there lectured all of them. I get newsletters basically begging parents to not drop their kids off at 7AM in the morning, and to pick them up on time. Even though FL offers free Pre-K 4 half of my daughters class (Andrew Robinson) did not know even their ABC's when they started school!
I do not blame any of these schools for that. The teachers and curriculum are great, but the laziness effort made by a lot of the parents is pitiful. You need to do more than go on line and look at a school grade to determine the right program/school for your child. Keep in mind a lot of these schools also have a magnent and parents too lazy to even try normal classes. They get one grade. If someone looking at our schools is not interested enough in finding out about each one, then we do not need them attending anyway-we have enough of that kind of attendance now.
FSU I have nothing against you, other than the black and white outlook on life in general that you seem to have. I think it is awesome that some of the neighbors would like to have a Springfield Charter School, I support them fully- I just wish they would give our existing schools a chance and expend some of that energy on them. The lesson Springfield has not learned: Together we succeed, divided we all fail.
Part of the reason that the school systems are in such rough shape is that many students and parents who could have elevated the public schools were pulled out into private schools. In Virginia, where I taught for years, very few students attended private schools and the local neighborhood public schools were excellent. (The parents made sure of it).
QuoteThe lesson Springfield has not learned: Together we succeed, divided we all fail.
This is an excellent quote and one that applies to pretty much everything in Springfield: schools, businesses, rentals and most importantly, people.
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 07, 2010, 02:25:15 PM
Ok. Anyone with children in any of these schools, or who had toured any of these schools would understand.
During my tour of Brentwood I saw no less than sixteen children coming in with parents late (it was 9:45 in the morning!) asking for excuses (you get your bennies cut if your kids aren't in school on time on a regular basis). They were all habitual in their practices as the admin there lectured all of them. I get newsletters basically begging parents to not drop their kids off at 7AM in the morning, and to pick them up on time. Even though FL offers free Pre-K 4 half of my daughters class (Andrew Robinson) did not know even their ABC's when they started school!
I do not blame any of these schools for that. The teachers and curriculum are great, but the laziness effort made by a lot of the parents is pitiful. You need to do more than go on line and look at a school grade to determine the right program/school for your child. Keep in mind a lot of these schools also have a magnent and parents too lazy to even try normal classes. They get one grade. If someone looking at our schools is not interested enough in finding out about each one, then we do not need them attending anyway-we have enough of that kind of attendance now.
FSU I have nothing against you, other than the black and white outlook on life in general that you seem to have. I think it is awesome that some of the neighbors would like to have a Springfield Charter School, I support them fully- I just wish they would give our existing schools a chance and expend some of that energy on them. The lesson Springfield has not learned: Together we succeed, divided we all fail.
Not sure what makes you think i have that outlook, but besides that I fully agree with you.
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 07, 2010, 02:25:15 PM
Even though FL offers free Pre-K 4 half of my daughters class (Andrew Robinson) did not know even their ABC's when they started school!
Half of the kids in my son's kindergarten class at Hendricks Avenue Elementary in San Marco (an A school for many years) did not know their ABCs at the beginning of the year. All of them (whether they are high or low income with involved parents or not) are reading now. I'm curious about how the Andrew Robinson kids are doing at this point in the school year.
My impression of the Springfield neighborhood schools (neighborhood, not magnets) is not positive. However, I don't think that's because of kids going to private schools - doubt that's the case for many Springfield kids, at least not until the past couple of years.
We have been at Tolbert (W 13th St) for three years, and Pine Forest for one year, and have loved both of them. I think school will be as good or bad as you want it to be. Tolbert has had some drama, but all in all we love the ACTUAL diversity of the school (turns out, there is more than just black and white) and have been happy with the results come FCAT time. Our eldest is a good student, and we feel Tolbert has encouraged achievement.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on March 07, 2010, 08:09:29 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 07, 2010, 02:25:15 PM
Even though FL offers free Pre-K 4 half of my daughters class (Andrew Robinson) did not know even their ABC's when they started school!
My impression of the Springfield neighborhood schools (neighborhood, not magnets) is not positive. However, I don't think that's because of kids going to private schools - doubt that's the case for many Springfield kids, at least not until the past couple of years.
Why is your impression not positive? To be honest, I am not sure we have "non-magnent schools" in the neighborhood. They are all a combination of both (except the troubled childrens school on Hubbard). When I speak of parental involvement, I am speaking of parents that make the smallest effort, the tinest effort. Now, don't get me wrong this is not about income levels or race- there are these parents and their unfortunate children everywhere. I am sure we can find them smattered across every private school in every neighborhood. The issue in the urban core is you have a concentration. With eighteen children in a classroom, and fourteen needing to catch up on just ABC's and then pass those FCATs, well there is a lot of stress on one teacher. Especially when maybe nine of those children never make it to school on time or show up sporadically, have emotional and/or physical issues, and at best sporadic support at home. Personally I do not agree with grading a school, teacher, or student based on a test such as FCAT. I also believe benefit restrictions based on school attendance should be applied to FL State Free Pre-K attendance also. Places like the Bridge are also a salvation for these kids. After school care aside, they offer homework time and help, reading and math programs, and evening meals for some that would not get any dinner. The Bridge seems to act as a defacto family for many. We should all support places such as this!
Some type of parental involvement is KEY in being successful at any school. Children can attend the worst school, but with care and work on their parents part, be extremely successful. At some point in our lives some decided school and teachers should be the end all solution to learning AND parenting.
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2010, 07:05:17 AM
Some type of parental involvement is KEY in being successful at any school. Children can attend the worst school, but with care and work on their parents part, be extremely successful. At some point in our lives some decided school and teachers should be the end all solution to learning AND parenting.
Parental involvement is absolutely a must and it's sorely lacking in a major way. There's virtually no parental accountability anymore, and the school system is taking the direction that the only people held accountable are those who work in the classroom, and they're only a portion of the educational experience.
For the low income families, there's head start and any Title One school, there's pre-k. All of which help children prepare for school. Even with those programs, without parental involvement, the child still lacks a large portion of what's needed to suceed. The education is there, yet so many fail to take advantage of it, including parents.
Quote from: Livein32206 on March 08, 2010, 07:20:43 AM
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2010, 07:05:17 AM
Some type of parental involvement is KEY in being successful at any school. Children can attend the worst school, but with care and work on their parents part, be extremely successful.
My negative impression of Springfield neighborhood schools (again, not including Lavilla and Stanton or Kirby Smith in this category) is based on personal tours, conversations with parents of children and teachers in those schools, and posts like yours. I don't disagree with anything in your post, especially your comments about parental involvement - it is key. One reason almost ALL of the kids (even the ones whose parents aren't involved) at schools like Hendricks are successful is because so many parents are involved at such a high level - there are dozens of parents at Hendricks assisting teachers and planning extracurricular programs every day of the week. The PTA has even created programs designed to provide assistance to children who need it, whether financial or otherwise. Unfortunately, because of the problems you outline, many of the Springfield parents who are most likely to be involved in their children's schools will choose to send their children to magnet schools outside of the neighborhood. I don't know how you break that cycle - hopefully schools like Brentwood, R.V. Daniels and Susie Tolbert will continue to improve. Meanwhile, we need to offer more assistance to the children of those parents who are unable to provide it.
FWIW, sticking to the topic, I do not live in Springfield - BUT, my #1 magnet choice on my son's app is for Ford.
And since I work in Springfield it would be really convenient.
My point is that I've seen the program at that school, and it is WAY better IMHO than our neighborhood school.
Just some observations:
Historically, private schools have always been intended to segregate one "group" from another. Also, if you look at the history of the creation of many of the private or church run schools, you will see that they were created after the public school's population radically changed. Again, in the name of a better education, yet history seems to indicate other reasons.
There currently does not seem to be much of a relationship between the racial makeup of a school and the actual grade the schools receive, however, social economic standing does seem to make a difference.
Northshore is a magnet school for those students with issues to begin with and it seems that since it was converted to that mission, it has been struggling more than before. Perhaps it is not being fairly compared to the other schools with a totally different mission? I know the “management†has been changed this year so we will see if there is any improvement due to that type of change.
In a couple of other threads, a few studies have been posted that seem to indicate a very positive result from truly integrating various social economic groups together. This, in my mind, would give credence to the concept that by pulling the more well off students out of the public schools and putting them into private schools, the public schools ultimately will be the worse off for it.
Quote from: strider on March 08, 2010, 09:29:55 AM
This, in my mind, would give credence to the concept that by pulling the more well off students out of the public schools and putting them into private schools, the public schools ultimately will be the worse off for it.
I agree with you. I don't think movement of children from public to private schools is the historic cause of problems in Springfield schools, because until recently very few Springfield families could afford private schools.
Interesting: compare the comments here about affluent children in public schools to those in a couple of other threads that discuss the need for diversity in Springfield.
Miss Fixit, actually, the movement in Springfield occured decades ago. As the more affluent moved out of the urban core this left only the lower income groups here. I would think that the idea of the magnet schools is in response to this issue and has helped most of the schools.
The brain suck argument is not a new one. Where I have my problem is, forcing kids who are able to do the work into environments where there are kids who cant do the work doesnt seem to be helpful for either child.
As a magnet parent, now twice over, I dont understand why any parent WOULDN'T want their kid in a magnet program. Neighborhood children would get priority over non-neighborhood children in the local magnet programs, and in my mind NOT enrolling them is just pure laziness on the parents part. Its a simple matter of going to magnet-mania, and visiting the schools your interested in, then turning in a wishlist before a deadline, all over a two month period. No money required, and a very good chance to meet the teachers and administration as the schools you are interested in.
In a lot of cases, teachers and administration are advancing children who can perform from neighborhood classes to magnet classes, as a matter of procedure, rather than waiting for the parent to figure out they have a bright kid.
Quote from: Dan B on March 08, 2010, 10:11:13 AM
The brain suck argument is not a new one. Where I have my problem is, forcing kids who are able to do the work into environments where there are kids who cant do the work doesnt seem to be helpful for either child.
As a magnet parent, now twice over, I dont understand why any parent WOULDN'T want their kid in a magnet program. Neighborhood children would get priority over non-neighborhood children in the local magnet programs, and in my mind NOT enrolling them is just pure laziness on the parents part. Its a simple matter of going to magnet-mania, and visiting the schools your interested in, then turning in a wishlist before a deadline, all over a two month period. No money required, and a very good chance to meet the teachers and administration as the schools you are interested in.
In a lot of cases, teachers and administration are advancing children who can perform from neighborhood classes to magnet classes, as a matter of procedure, rather than waiting for the parent to figure out they have a bright kid.
Just to be clear: my children attend public schools, including two magnets. One problem with magnets is that they are not all equal and there is not enough room in the better magnets for all of the children who want to attend them.
First, some are quick to crucify on this site, I have the education, experience, and credentials to speak as an expert as I am a public educator of 15 years and have a master's degree in Educational Administration. I also work at a magnet school (visual and performing arts,)in a large urban city.
My experience is that magnet schools/programs have an application process that includes more than just an address. Magnet schools/programs typically receive (or have received,) federal funds to start-up special programs, and have to maintain certain goals (usually centered around scores,) to maintain funding. Good grades, high test scores, good attendance, and a lack of discipline being key elements in the applicaiton review.
Stider is correct, magnet and special programs tend to surface in economically disadvantaged communities to "return" a higher socio-economic class to the area/school and attempt to desegregate the population to a more diverse one, including race and socio-economic status.
There are a lot of "too bads" and realities in public education, but as most of you agree, the parental support is of utmost importance. Those first 3 years of development are the foundation! Head Start stepped in with pre-k programs to help remove the scarring from children who were not given the opportunity to have a better first 3 years due to poor parenting et. al.
A consideration for successful schools is to see the percent of students who receive free and reduced lunch and then compare that to the schools test scores (in FL, a letter grade.) I don't have the time to pull supporting statistics now, but truth be known, typically schools with a predominate number of students with free and reduced lunch have (the school's average,)lower test scores. Mind you, this is NOT always the case, plenty of poor minority (language we use in education,) students do well all around in school, but why possibly only some schools are "successful," this depending on what your measuring stick is for successful. Improvement is a powerful tool for measurement.
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2010, 07:05:17 AM
except the troubled childrens school on Hubbard
Is that Mattie V Rutherford? My mother worked there for many years. It was a hellhole in those days, mid-70s to late-80s.
Quote from: finehoe on March 08, 2010, 03:26:37 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2010, 07:05:17 AM
except the troubled childrens school on Hubbard
Is that Mattie V Rutherford? My mother worked there for many years. It was a hellhole in those days, mid-70s to late-80s.
really? in that time period it was still a regular elementary school. i attended kindergarten there the last year it was open as one, because even at five years old i could walk there...and i can't say i recall anything terribly dreadful happening to me or my classmates.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 08, 2010, 04:27:36 PM
i can't say i recall anything terribly dreadful happening to me or my classmates.
I meant that the physical plant was in awful shape. But, yes the neighborhood was quite different back then as well, probably in ways not especially apparent to a kindergartener.
Mattie V. Rutherford is an alternative school for the students who have disciplinary problems, and have been removed from their home school as a result. They must abide by the more stringent rules and dress code, or they will be expelled from there as well. Once they complete the disciplinary time there, then they are allowed to return to their home school. These are the class II and III offenders.
^^Thanks for the update.