I just got this email from SPAR:
SPAR has received notice that on Thursday, February 11, 2010 at 1:00., the Planning Commission of the City of Jacksonville will hold a Public Hearing in the Council Chambers at City Hall St. James; 117 West Duval St, 1st Floor
Reference: E-10-03
Exception Sought: Convenience Store
Application Filed by: Joe Joseph, 6818 Mad Rid Avenue; Jacksonville, FL 32217; 904-463-5889
Site Location: 2104 Liberty Street; Jacksonville, FL
I saw a sign but did not stop to read it the other day. That would put it at 11th & Liberty where an old Jiffy building is.
That is good news. A convenience store there would bring some life to that section of SPR.
Does anyone have a map of the historic district's boundaries? I'm wondering if that site is actually in the historic district.
The boundaries get pretty crazy in certain spots. For example, a significant chunk of Main between 12th & 8th and 8th between Main and Ionia is not a part of the official historic district. I don't think certain sections of the warehouse district are either. Just wondering if this non-contributing site is. The city's site is down and I can't find a historic map on SPAR's site. Does anyone know where one online might be?
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2010, 11:20:11 PM
The boundaries are 1st to 12th, Boulevard to Ionia.
The actual historic district isnt quite that cut and dry. This is the map from the city.
(http://web5.twitpic.com/img/62103681-74b732a437676ac3afc17d6bf7484c69.4b67ab74-scaled.jpg)
http://web5.twitpic.com/img/62103681-74b732a437676ac3afc17d6bf7484c69.4b67ab74-scaled.jpg
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Regulatory+Boards+and+Commissions/Historic+Preservation+Commission/Springfield+Historic+District+.htm
Here is the map from COJ. Just click the Adobe PDF icon and there you go.
Personally, I am not thrilled. I have a house on the corner of Redwing/11th and I can see this store from the yard. The property on Liberty is well kept, clean, and currently vacant. It is large like a 7-Eleven large with plenty of parking in the front. It's across from the warehouse (currently for sale,) that was recently redone by a Riverside business owner.
According to the map, this address is NOT in the historic boundaries.
Let me state again, I am not thrilled. New business or not, not thrilled. Say what ever you want. I prefer it quiet like it is now. Crap. Not thrilled.
How can having a boarded up convenience store returning to its life be a bad thing for a downtown area?
Light industrial zoning means that this convenience store could end up being a light factory with outside storage. Surely a less intensive use such as a convenience store is better than the traditional light industrial use.
A large reason that actual Historic District is not this perfect "square" is the to insure places like the warehouses and factories did not fight the historic designation.
An interesting fact is that while the actual boundaries of the historic district follow those erratic lines, the boundaries under which the Springfield Overlay is enforced does follow the basic boulevard, first, tracks and 12th lines. So even property that is outside of the actual district still has to follow some of the rules of the historic district but can not take advantage of any programs that are for historic districts.
The entire “warehouse†area that some have hopes for is mostly IL, meaning that it can be high intensive uses without seeking anyone’s approval. The redone building at 2111 Liberty is very nice and very empty. It is a PUD to be residential. A convenience store seems like a much better use than the possible uses without exception. And a much better use than an abandoned and empty space. Without some kind of business up and operating in that part of town, other than the by right industrial uses, it will remain as it is…pretty much unused.
While I actually agree and "get" all that, one might gather that a convenience store proposal brings flashes of "The Shell Station" in Hampsterdam or other scary monster convenience locations which we can argue about (which I am not looking to do.)
Yeah, yeah, they are not asking to sell gas. Yup, is it zoned to do what the request is asking. Oh joy. Loitering, an absolute pet peeve no matter where I am. Panhandling, another peeve, no matter where I am. These last 2 I am sure to expect. Like we really need another convenience store in Springfield. Sorry folks. There is a zip zillion of them.
It always boils down to fear of the people who may or may not use a store like this. Someday we will all learn. But then again, maybe we won't.....
And, it does seem that at least a few of the stores like this are being well run and well looked after. Who's to know if this one will be or not?
Quote from: strider on February 02, 2010, 11:49:51 AMAnd, it does seem that at least a few of the stores like this are being well run and well looked after. Who's to know if this one will be or not?
True. But I only have to ask myself one question. "Would I allow my 11 year old to walk into the store by himself and pick something up." The answer will be determined by loitering and panhandling (or the absence of.) As long as the service is kind, the store clean, the food/items fresh, the exterior and interior of the establishment safe; cool. If they sell drugs behind the counter, uh, no.
I am amazed that some stores I have come upon when I travel in various cities are able to stay open with what they sell, then I realize that the store is a front for the sale of something else. NOT suggesting that this convenience store will sell drugs. NOT suggesting that. Just the criteria (stated above,) a mom uses to "test" a store for shopability.
A neighborhood is only as good as those who live within and those who visit. Proactiveness is vital. IMHO it is not prudent for someone to take the Pollyana approach to much of anything. The gathering of valid information is key and is what I am in the process of doing.
Honestly, there isn't much on that block. Redwing Street and Liberty will be effected, as everything else is abandoned factory or empty lot. Not much on 11th Street where this proposed convience store is potentially going to be.
I agree with iloveionia. SPR does not need another convience store. It will add trash, and a new place for the drunks to buy their colt 45. Yes, I would rather see the building empty given what will stream in and out af that store.................
Quote from: strider on February 02, 2010, 11:49:51 AM
It always boils down to fear of the people who may or may not use a store like this. Someday we will all learn. But then again, maybe we won't.....
And, it does seem that at least a few of the stores like this are being well run and well looked after. Who's to know if this one will be or not?
you are SOOO right about this.
http://www/youtube.com/watch?v=XDAaTzccCik
educated guess
ed·u·cat·ed guess (plural ed·u·cat·ed guess·es)
noun
Definition:
informed guess: a guess that is based on a degree of experience, knowledge, or information
Then ...hopes for growth are futile...
If a convenience store, built as such...screwed by crazy and lazy zoning...is forced to turn into an industrial site because we are afraid of loiterers, the outlook is not so good.
Gloria,
There is a big difference between fear and disliking. Loitering is illegal in most cities and in front of most businesses. I prefer to shop in peace and not be harassed. A lot of businesses boast that they don't allow people to loiter, panhandle, ask for signatures, etc. I truly appreciate that. For example, I appreciate that I can shop at my local grocery store in peace, they are big on avoiding all the aforementioned peeves of mine.
I am not personally AFRAID of loiterers. I dislike what they are doing. I get that they are in a bad place in their lives. It is not that I don't want to help those in need, I just don't want to help in this fashion. I want to shop in peace.
New business in Springfield = good. Convenience stores are on every corner (exaggerating, but that is what it feels like to me,) I don't want another.
Peace. That's all I want.
Ionia, I hear you; however, a "light industrial" zoning designation does anything BUT offers peace. It offers factories and outdoor storage. And there is nothing wrong with it in the warehouse district...except that this property was obviously a convenience store, built as such, intended to be one.
Isn't there any middle ground? Couldn't we, as neighbors, contact the owner and find out how s/he feels about implementing a loitering policy?
In downtown areas, there are convenience stores on every corner. And the fact that this business wants to open is good for the warehouse district. It could bring some life into it. It could also draw some business from the Swisher plant only a few streets up and make them leave some of their dollars in Springfield. When the plant lets out, it is bumper to bumper (potential) customers.
You need to go find out what the actual plans are for this store and then perhaps you can make an informed decission. So far, all of the negative has been is a reaction to the "not another convenience store" and not really based on fact but rather fear.
The urban core is not all about having that perfect house, 2.6 kids and a dog. If you moved to the urban core to have that suburban feel, you goofed.
Let me state once again: as has been proven time and time again in other areas, the best way to make the streets better is better lighting and more uses. Empty is bad, used is good.
Strider, you make assumptions.............saying that I or any others for that matter, need to check out the plans before we make what you call an "informed decission" is ridiculous. You have no idea what research I have or have not done. Just because my feelings about a convience store in SPR differ from yours does not make my decision "uninformed." It simply differs from yours.
Can anyone share any personal research they may have on this project? This would be the best way to eliminate any assumptions.
I was going to say we should just start a new thread entitled "What Springfield DOESNT WANT" and consolidate all this kvetching about thrift stores, carwashes, convenience stores, BP's, Shell stations, a Community Center, homes for disabled veterans, sober houses, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.
But then I realized MetroJax would probably have to buy a whole new server. Then I realized the federal goverment would also probably need to install a whole new DNS just to handle all the bitching and complaining. FWIW, I think the new domain should be ".snotty"...
Seriously, that's all people say over there "we don't want....we don't want..." while 90% of the commercial property is vacant or has already been bulldozed. Within a mile of my house there are at least 6 convenience stores, and I am sure I'm forgetting to count a couple. Nobody is bitching about it over here, it's actually nice to have a place open at those hours where I can grab bottled water or some milk if I come in on a late flight. Are there some ghetto looking people around them getting beer/cigs/lotto/whatever? Yeah, sometimes. But so what? You're not there to make friends. And those people clearly live nearby anyhow or they wouldn't be there, so it's not like the store has anything to do with it. Most of them are real well-run.
I'm not sure I understand the economics of a convenience store in this location. There are already four stores on 8th between Hubbard and Walnut (I'm counting the liquor store). Liberty & 11th is on the far edge of the residential district with the warehouse district to the north. Where is their customer base?
It probably made sense when the industrial buildings were full and humming; a store could turn a profit on those workers during the daylight hours. But now...not sure this is even viable.
Would it be the closest to an expanding Swisher and their +1,000 employees?
Quote from: strider on February 03, 2010, 08:41:54 AM
You need to go find out what the actual plans are for this store and then perhaps you can make an informed decission. So far, all of the negative has been is a reaction to the "not another convenience store" and not really based on fact but rather fear.
The urban core is not all about having that perfect house, 2.6 kids and a dog. If you moved to the urban core to have that suburban feel, you goofed.
Let me state once again: as has been proven time and time again in other areas, the best way to make the streets better is better lighting and more uses. Empty is bad, used is good.
You are correct Strider in regards to making an informed decision. It takes time to gather information. Two friends have helped me gather information. With a full time job that takes up my 7-5 p.m., it has taken me a few days. I will SUMMARIZE in brief what I have:
Joe Joseph owns a number of convenience stores and warehouses in economically deprived areas of Jax. He and his family have an LLC that also owns several pieces of property too. He has not committed any major crimes that can be noted.
At this point, I plan on attending the hearing to gather more information, directly from Mr. Joseph. I could call him, the city, etc. but the hearing is a hop, skip, and a jump away, I can wait until then.
And for the record, I am from the urban core, Los Angeles, California to be exact. Oh, I get it, but you have it wrong. It's about having a perfect house, 1 kid, and a pack of SACARC dogs. I didn't goof. I just want for something different than a convenience store.
Historic Springfield is a great neighborhood that is much more peaceful than any part of Los Angeles. Hooplady states as I, WAY too many convenience stores. . .
Now if Mr. Joseph wanted to put in a breakfast/lunch diner type establishment; Whoot, Whoot! It is about wanting to grow from where we are, not stay stagnant with like the 100th convenience store opening up (yeah, yeah, I am exaggerating.) I don't necessarily agree with the "empty is bad, used is good" concept, but I get what you are trying to say. It certainly depends on HOW something is used and then maintained. Will the convenience store be bad? Dunno. The gathering of information continues. But for the meantime, what is wrong with wanting something different? And by the way. I LOVE thrift stores, antique shops, retro stores, yards sales, etc. The junk of another is a thrill of a find for me.
if you have the locations of his other conveniences stores, one could gather a lot of info by simply visiting them and seeing how they are maintained and operated.
^Good point.
everyone thinks alike, eh?
it is on my list of to dos prior to the hearing.
;-)
Quote from: thelakelander on February 03, 2010, 10:47:47 AM
Would it be the closest to an expanding Swisher and their +1,000 employees?
Wow, I didn't know Swisher had that many! Yes, in that case it would make perfect sense.
And Ionia, I wasn't necessarily saying that there are "too many" convenience stores. Like you, I would love to have more diversity in our retail choices but I can't argue that there are too many if they all seem to stay busy. Adam Smith would say we have the right amount, I guess. :-\
LOL Hoop.
I'd just like the right amount of something else too. :-)
QuoteBut for the meantime, what is wrong with wanting something different? And by the way. I LOVE thrift stores, antique shops, retro stores, yards sales, etc. The junk of another is a thrill of a find for me.
I know that you do, and I appreciate that greatly!