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QuoteUrban Jacksonville Weekly #45 â€" Discussing Downtown Dilemma with the Times Union
Listen Now » http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/12/15/urban-jacksonville-weekly-45-discussing-downtown-dilemma-with-the-times-union

We'll be talking with Bill Miller, Assistant Metro Editor and the editor of Downtown Dilemma, a new 5-part series from the Times-Union and Jacksonville.com (http://jacksonville.com) on Downtown Jacksonville. Five reporters spent 4 months investigating why efforts to revitalize downtown have fizzled and what it will take to get it back on track. The series begins Sunday.

Please leave questions for Bill if you have them and thanks!

The 5 parts in the Downtown Dilemma Series

• Promise Unfulfilled
• A Day in the Life
• Living Downtown
• Faith in the Future
• Six Paths to a Brighter Horizon

Urban Jacksonville Weekly @ 9:30am on Monday
Watch here (http://www.urbanjacksonvilleweekly.com) or you can watch (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2735142) or listen (http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/12/08/urban-jacksonville-weekly-44-burro-bags/) to last weeks episode with Burro Bags

Here are some questions from a friend, they may spur some more:

1. what effort is being made to promote and attract new residents downtown?
2. why not offer incentives for people willing to move downtown to help spur growth?
3. is there any attention being made to ensure we have attractive housing options for potential new residents?
4. why not offer a education program for our suburban minded realtors showing them the housing stock and making them comfortable showing places downtown, I know from experience that when i moved here 5 years ago every realtor i spoke with informed me that no one wants to live downtown- they did not get it.

Having been a realtor who specialized in marketing exclusively in the Downtown and surrounding urban neighborhoods, the largest obstacle I encountered was prospective buyers who would have never given these areas a thought. They just don't know about it, because they are so used to suburban living.

There is a disparity with regards to housing perceptions downtown: there is high end, and there is low end. There is no "in between" to match with the "in between" middle class lifestyle of planet Suburbia. Or so people think.

Based on the trends I've seen and the current availability of properties in these specific market areas, I would say that Springfield is going to be the very best as far as sales and production volume in the coming months. Not only does it fall somewhere in between "high end" penthouses at the Peninsula to "low end" efficiencies at City Place, but it also has a tremendous "neighborhood" feeling that will go a long way to bringing actual residents into the area, as opposed to investors merely looking to flip "this old house."

I have very high hopes that Springfield can be the grand finale to flushing out the "circle" of urban neighborhoods surrounding Downtown, as opposed to "just" Riverside/Avondale and San Marco. Once the entire downtown is completely surrounded, inward movement will stand a better chance.

Oh, I like your #2 question - if we can offer Property Tax deals to big business, why not for people buying homes downtown?

From the daily titles, I can't tell - is the series just about downtown residential issues, or is it broader than that?  Of course, DT amenities (Laura, wayfinding, Riverwalk maintenance/upgrades, etc.), employment (so you don't have to commute to Deerwood), retail (or drive miles for shopping), all effect DT living choices.

QuoteI have very high hopes that Springfield can be the grand finale to flushing out the "circle" of urban neighborhoods surrounding Downtown, as opposed to "just" Riverside/Avondale and San Marco. Once the entire downtown is completely surrounded, inward movement will stand a better chance.

Bring it on, as they say. I like Springfield, but if I was new to the city, would I send my family to Springfield, with few shops and restaurants or Riverside, Avondale or San Marco which have established shops, merchant associations and events that are, in my opinion, superior to any other suburb in Jacksonville. My wife is a realtor and I shall be posting the sales in these areas over the next few months. Again, I say, bring...it...on.

Riverside may have more shops and restaurants, but as a specific market neighborhood, it is very transient in nature with regards to residences. Lots of rentals and multi-family homes, so the area lacks a sense of permanence. It's difficult to create lasting neighbor to neighbor relations. Even the shops and restaurants lack a sense of permanence, coming and going minus a select handful who have made it through the test of time.

That's not a negative, but as far as purchasing a home, comparing Riverside or San Marco to Springfield is like comparing apples and oranges. It is not a question of better or worse - each neighborhood is different.

And yes, the closest "neighborhood" feel to compare Springfield to would be Avondale, but the price point in Avondale is considerably higher and therefore is limited as far as prospective purchasers. Each urban neighborhood brings something different to the table, and the potential of Springfield to be realized stands a very good chance in lieu of other neighborhoods having more shops and restaurants. Springfield is gaining more venues also, with uptown market, the ever successful 3 Layers a Coffeehouse, and Fusion, to name a few. I am fairly certain they are also here to stay.

Feel free to post the sales in each area in the coming months. But do not forget to also post the amount of rentals vs. purchases for each respective area. Bring that on :)

Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 12, 2009, 03:53:32 PMFrom the daily titles, I can't tell - is the series just about downtown residential issues, or is it broader than that?  Of course, DT amenities (Laura, wayfinding, Riverwalk maintenance/upgrades, etc.), employment (so you don't have to commute to Deerwood), retail (or drive miles for shopping), all effect DT living choices.

This, from what I understand, is a wide ranging series, much broader than residential issues.

Here is another question from the blog that may spur some additional discussion:

QuoteDid your reporters include Indianapolis in your research?  I was the Simon Developer for the Circle Centre Mall that opened in 1995.  Prior to the mall opening, the downtown more void of activity that Jacksonville.

Sounds good to me; let's do this.

"HU"

 
How do you figure that Riverside is transient, Braeburn?   yes, there are rentals (mostly duplex and quads), but this adds a diversity to the residents.  IMO having younger residents just out of high school or college adds vibrancy to a neighborhood that would otherwise gentrify into something resembling Ortega.   I am a Realtor specializing in the downtown neighborhoods and used to do quite a bit of business in Springfield, but almost every time I showed potential buyers both Riverside and Springfield, the former was the ultimate choice.  Even without the Publix, there are still dozens more dining and shopping options in Riverside than Springfield.

Springfield has some beautiful architecture, but I think the lack of smaller bungalows restricts the housing choices for singles or young couples with limited budgets.  Especially if they are planning on tackling a restoration project.  As for the suburban Realtors not knowing the area, that's fine.  I think there are plenty of Realtors with a passion for urban living to go around.   Any buyers with an interest in historic/downtown neighborhoods will find a Realtor that matches their interest.

Questions for UJW:

1)  Beyond the renovations to Metro Park, the Southbank Riverwalk, and Laura Street, what if any plans does the current administration have for Downtown?
2)  Is the current administration still opposed to selling the land underneath the Landing?
3)  What is the status of the plans to 2-way the majority of the streets Downtown?
4)  What is the timetable for developing a plan to sell or re-use the courthouse property?
5)  What importance does the Convention Center have in the future of Downtown, within the collective mindset of the city and business leadership?


I'll try to think of some more.     

Thanks vicupstate, you rock!

We have been talking about downtown residential since the days when we were all on Metjax.com. I believe one idea Lake presented was similar to what Phili did with City Center, which is the use of Tax Credits, or actually establishing a 10 year tax moratorium to land owners who brought business and residences to City Center. One article I read said that when that was established a few years ago it was the first time in over 20 years that the population had stopped dropping, and in fact, it has since started to increase again.

Now, the times were different. 5 years ago developers could have gotten funding from any number of sources. Now, however, money is scarce. I was recently talking to Petras property manager, and he said the problem is even if anyone WANTED to act, there is no money for them TO act.

So, perhaps a tax moratorium combined with some sort of super low interest pot of money for property owners to borrow from the city to develop structures that have been empty for more than 5 or 10 years?

I dont know the answers, but it seems to me that if the city were interested in bringing residents downtown, they would be searching for an answer, and talking about bringing more than just high end condos to the river front.

To that point, I believe someone else made the point about moving the city off the river front, and moving the jail from the Cathedral district (including the low security facility behind it).

Also, I dont think its necessary to move the social service centers, nessecarily (though I agree, basing them all downtown is not the right thing to do) but you must address the hoards of people who hang around these facilities all day long. If you look at Pearl St between State and Union, Or Adams, between Liberty and the Creek, you will see people sitting there in large numbers pretty much all day. Nobody would want to live or work in an area that has such a large loitering population.

I also hate to concede the point, but part of the answer MAY be day centers. However, If you do build them you have to disperse them around the city. One in Regency, one downtown, one on Blanding, and one at Gateway mall. Hell, with the commercial issues, I know for a fact that there is space at all four locations.

So, to recap

1) Tax incentives for downtown property owners
2) Availability of low interest loans from the city
3) Jail out of downtown, and move City services off the river.
4) Day centers spread around the city, dispersing the transient population to more manageable numbers in multiple locations, and removing them from the streets where you want people and commerce to succeed.

Thanks Dan! Those are great points. I'll try to include them in the discussion.

Five reporters spent 4 months investigating why efforts to revitalize downtown have fizzled and what it will take to get it back on track.

BINGO! What will it take? 30 freaking years of pounding on the ears of a deaf city? Too much man, it is WAY PAST time to do the streetcars, Amtrak, commuter Rail AND a REAL transportation center (NOT the one JTA has scattered all over LaVilla), into downtown Jacksonville.  Streetcars return from $5.00 to $1,200.00 in new development for every dollar invested. Bad Economy? Norfolk broke ground in this economy and ZAP, a sudden huge building boom downtown, in a city that has been losing population for decades.

We've missed the train on this issue by not only ignoring the chance to be the first city with a new Heritage Streetcar System, but we have refused to be pro-active in anything rail. Our port has suffered, our highways have suffered, and our abandoned downtown has suffered. Pro-Active, imagine that not long ago 1,000+ men and women worked at Jacksonville Terminal and sundry support functions. A pro Active city would be making the calls, organizing the meetings of Mayors and Transit Directors, working every inch with Amtrak, even helping to design new routes.

So we have no Streetcars. Well damn, we don't have much left of the 12 Amtrak trains and 40+ intercity bus schedules either. Yet every day a very popular train (The Palmetto) leaves New York City and pulls into Savannah (same day). That's only 130 odd miles away and it previously terminated here, WHY NOT? The Sunset Limited/Gulf Wind Route runs from New Orleans to Los Angeles and they talk about terminating it in Orlando! Why not Jax? We are the ones with the terminal, can't we point out the economies of sending it's cars South not only to Orlando, but Tampa, West Palm, and Miami, all by switching them into a New York - Florida train in JAX? Amtrak has already said when the FEC comes on line, they plan to split the trains here...Naturally, that's what we had a huge station for, but who knows? Jacksonville - Atlanta, talked about for years and what have WE done? NOTHING! Recently under Bush budget cuts Amtrak cut our connections with Gainesville and Ocala, as well as a through route to Tampa. The budget cuts are long gone and what do we have to show for it? NOTHING!  I met with Greyhound officers the other day and found there is only a single schedule running from Jax to Gainesville and no possible return on the same day. Oh, but it only runs Thursday-Monday. Meanwhile a railroad track runs from downtown Jacksonville to Baldwin to 23Rd street in Gainesville, and the right-of-way exists all the way to the Swamp, have we? Not even worth saying, OF COURSE WE HAVEN'T.

Forget about the ease of travel with these ventures, think in terms of economic gain and a huge boon in new high paying jobs, infrastructure, retail, food service, laundry, hotel, floral, fuel, mechanical, AC/HEAT, electronics, electrical, etc... HUGE. But that's okay, we've done NOTHING and we're really good at it. Damn Jacksonville!

What will it take?

OCKLAWAHA (Rant number 4,201,491 in a series)
Let's finish that blog series UJ!

What will it take?

Bold Leadership.

Quote from: floridaforester on December 12, 2009, 06:55:34 PM

How do you figure that Riverside is transient, Braeburn?   yes, there are rentals (mostly duplex and quads), but this adds a diversity to the residents.  IMO having younger residents just out of high school or college adds vibrancy to a neighborhood that would otherwise gentrify into something resembling Ortega.   I am a Realtor specializing in the downtown neighborhoods and used to do quite a bit of business in Springfield, but almost every time I showed potential buyers both Riverside and Springfield, the former was the ultimate choice.  Even without the Publix, there are still dozens more dining and shopping options in Riverside than Springfield.

Springfield has some beautiful architecture, but I think the lack of smaller bungalows restricts the housing choices for singles or young couples with limited budgets.  Especially if they are planning on tackling a restoration project.  As for the suburban Realtors not knowing the area, that's fine.  I think there are plenty of Realtors with a passion for urban living to go around.   Any buyers with an interest in historic/downtown neighborhoods will find a Realtor that matches their interest.

Riverside is transient. As stated it's not a negative though. Each neighborhood has something different to offer. I surmise that once Springfield reaches its fullest potential and a revitalization, that inward growth into downtown will take off.

First article in Times Union series now online.  See article and link posted at thread below.  Note that many of the points made in the article were also discussed previously in the below thread.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6638.msg117300.html#msg117300

Quote from: vicupstate on December 13, 2009, 12:50:19 AM
What will it take?

Bold Leadership.

I dont even know if BOLD leadership is needed, so much as just plain old, GOOD leadership.

Quote from: vicupstate on December 13, 2009, 12:50:19 AM
What will it take?

Bold Leadership.

Something we don't have at present.

"HU"

Quote from: Dan B on December 13, 2009, 09:39:21 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on December 13, 2009, 12:50:19 AM
What will it take?

Bold Leadership.

I dont even know if BOLD leadership is needed, so much as just plain old, GOOD leadership.

In my opinion "goodness" and "boldness" go hand in hand.  First be bold, and in your boldness, do a GOOD job!

And of course you have to plan well before adding the boldness and the goodness.

"HU"

Jake Godbold?

"HU"

yes, braeburn, Springfield has lots to offer.  You still didn't answer the question how Riverside was transient.  I'll take transient (if that's the case) over halfway house.  I hope Springfield's potential will be fully realized, but having witnessed the leadership of this city while growing up here, I don't have much faith.  the powers that be, currently, have a vested interest in pushing growth into the exurbs and hinterlands of NE Fl.   I find it awfullly ironic that Peyton would even have something to say in the TU series on Downtown development considering he and his ilk have a huge interest in steering $ as far from downtown as possible.  That's always been Jax's problem,  the decision makers in this town have, or are controlled, by the land owners in the remote areas of the county.  Maybe that's one of the areas that consolidation screwed the pooch for Jacksonville's future progress.

Question for Monday's show:

The T-U stats on Sunday showed a dramatic collapse of 'Mental Health' crime stats.  What was the cause of this?  What exactly does this category represent,  and were the component crimes 're-classified' to produce this near elimination of crime in this category?   

There we go comparing again floridaforester.

For the 3rd time, Riverside being transient does not equal a negative. It is very much transient, in the constant moving in and moving out of residences and businesses. A vast majority of inventory in Riverside caters to renters, commercial and residential alike. While not a bad thing, what it offers differs greatly from Springfield. Apples and oranges.

I am not certain what you mean by halfway house versus transient, or if those are directed towards their "respective" neighborhoods and that you are partial to one or the other.

Think of the urban neighborhoods surrounding Downtown as a circle. The missing link is Springfield, but it won't be for long. As soon as the circle is complete (sounds like some tragic 90's movie about Witchcraft here), then inward growth into Downtown will stand a better chance.

We still need answers, why is Peyton and JTA still pushing BRT when this city needs rail?

Streetcars anyone?  

OCKLAWAHA

There is a direct relationship between fixed mass transit and dense, walkable private sector development.  It would be nice to understand why Jax can't make this connection and does not take it seriously.  The money proposed for an isolated project like Metro Park could easily fund a decent starter line and be a catalyst for connectivity and attracting density between isolated nodes.

Also, should Jax consider establishing a 10-year tax abatement program for DT and the urban core? Coupled with transit, these things could really boost the quality of living in the area giving it a much stronger chance to compete against the burbs.

God could those articles be anymore depressing? I just believe so much of this has to do with poor leadership within City government. I spend alot of time downtown and sometimes I just get down right depressed, looking around and imagining what it would be like if things were different. I love how people blame the church or homeless, as stephen pointed out earlier. I think it goes beyound that. We have acres and acres of vancat land along our riverfront in Downtown! Can you imagine what some other city would have done with all that land by now? Fixed mass transit would help, but there also needs to be strong land use policies in place that will support the growth of transit supportive uses in this city as well. So much potential and very little to show. Maybe our next mayor can get a better handle on this.

FBC is a very CONVENIENT overused excuse.  Bay Street has a few bars and clubs now as does the Landing, did FBC oppose any of them?  I don't remember hearing it and if they did, they weren't successful. 

It's time to lay down the excuses, especially that one. 

FBC should be an asset.  We just have to find a way to better take advantage of the amount of people they pull into the core.

^ I agree lake.  Let's try baby steps, like how do we get them to stay downtown for awhile after service instead of heading out quickly, being guided along by traffic cops.  It would be nice if they decided to eat somewhere downtown, or venture to Uptown Market or something, instead of hitting up the Olive Garden miles away...

*edit: of course that's not really a baby step at all. ;)

I have offered suggestions to Terry Lorince of DVI on how to better capture the Downtown church crowd on Sundays. Nothing has happend.

fsujax, are those items that you have shared here as well?

wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those downtown hating posters on the TU site are devoted sunday parishioners at FBC.

no wonder they drive in and drive out as as fast as they can.

Agreed Jason, FSUJAX, Lakelander, Vicupstate... I think First Baptist Church is a huge asset to downtown. It's alive, in use, well maintained, has shown it will follow the City's plan concepts (Skywalks), has added beautification at street level (Plantings, fountain, etc..) If the same property was a windowless "Playboy Club," I bet we wouldn't hear a single protest. The people that hate FBC are not really mad at the church, they are mad at the concept of a God. If they tore down FBC tomorrow, these same ill contents would be raising hell about St. Johns Cathedral, or Bethel, or ??  No one is holding a gun to FBC's head, they are downtown because they want to be. We are now complaining that "They drive out as fast as they can..." sorry people, but to do so means they also DROVE IN!

I agree that keeping the crowd in town would be a plus, but they are not going to stay and eat, if there is no place to stay and eat. The fact that they are comfortable with meeting downtown is worth it's weight in gold, but nobody is cashing in. All that would have to be done is promote some sort of monthly event like "CHURCH OUT SUNDAY'S" where a certain list of downtown eating establishments would agree to stay open, and FBC, and the rest of the church community, would agree to promote it as a fellowship day. Landing? Are you listening? An event like this could easily be grown into an every Sunday tradition. At that point we just add recreation, and retail.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: vicupstate on December 14, 2009, 09:21:03 AM
FBC is a very CONVENIENT overused excuse.  Bay Street has a few bars and clubs now as does the Landing, did FBC oppose any of them?  I don't remember hearing it and if they did, they weren't successful. 

It's time to lay down the excuses, especially that one. 

Probaby because many of the Parrishoners and Church goers attend those bars and clubs.  Nothing wrong with that as long as they don't get caught.

"HU"

OCKLAWAHA - We're definitely listening.

Let me clarify one point though - there ARE places to stay and eat in downtown Jacksonville on Sundays.  Every Landing restaurant is open (with the exception of Koja Sushi that doesn't open until 5pm on Sundays) for lunch and dinner and the Food Court operates under mall hours on Sunday (12pm-5:30pm).  I know not every Food Court business opens on Sundays, but the majority of them are.

We have talked to many of the churches in downtown Jax.  The problem we have found with many of the church attendees is parking.  When they get back into their cars, they don't want to have to search for a place to park near The Landing.  We do have some meters near The Landing, and you know they are free on weekends, but they do get taken rather quickly (some by employees here because they know they don't have to pay to park that day).  As much as I can request our employees not park in the meters that should be reserved for our customers, they are going to do what they want to do.  They get sick of having to pay to park to go to work, too.

Put in a Loop Pizza Grill within a block or two of FBC, those fill up to the brim on Sunday afternoons.  Then we can put something else a half block away when the Loop gets too crowded.  Make a trail of bread crumbs that will eventually lead the FBC patrons to Hemming and the Landing.

^That's another sad issue on it's own, JaxLanding.  Why people would need to get in their cars from FBC and other downtown churches, to go 8 blocks is beyond me.  Some need to drive I'm sure, but there is a large percentage that could easily walk to a nearby restaurant, but suburban thinking would say otherwise.

And a trolley stop and line would be even better.

jason_contentdg:  you hit the nail on the head!!  But we see it all the time.  Those of us who are familiar with downtown Jacksonville know that you can find places to park.  There is a lot of parking in the downtown area!  BUT - people are used to pulling up to a free parking spot just outside the doors of the business in which they want to enter.  The do not like to pay for parking or having to walk a few blocks to get where they want to go.

~side note~  Village Bread Cafe is also open for breakfast on Sundays! (I forgot to mention that in my previous post).

Aside from the issue with parking for church goers, our parking woes directly influence the businesses that would want to move in to The Landing and occupy some of the empty spaces you see today.  When a company talks to to us about leasing, the first thing they ask for is parking.  They want dedicated parking for their own business.  For example (and this really did happen, btw), a restaurant talks to us and says, "Great, we love it.  We want to build and open up in downtown Jax.  Now give us 120 parking spaces and we'll sign on the dotted line."  The sad thing is that we have to then say, "we don't have that to give to you."

Of the people I see leaving FBC on Sundays, 90% of them could use the 8 block walk to the landing to get their grub on.  Geez. 

This is why I don't think a trolley or streetcar system is the magic bullet as some seem to make it out as.  There are too many fat asses in this town that can't stand walking more than 30 feet.

Ock, that is exaclty the concept I tried to sell Terry Lorince. Have some sort of Stay Downtown Sunday after Church event. Get the Landing involved, other restaurants, MOSH, MOCA what ever else. FBC could leave one garage open so folks attending the church do not have to feel they need to get in their cars and drive to the Landing because they lock the garage at 1pm. I am more than confident the church would leave one garage open to accomodate the event. All we have to do is ask! Let's also remember FBC isn't the only church DT there are many othes as well.

Quote from: redglittercoffin on December 14, 2009, 10:56:30 AM
There are too many fat asses in this town that can't stand walking more than 30 feet.

Sad but true.  Unfortunately, it's not a Jacksonville-specific problem either.

It's not a long term fix, and Ock will probably kick and scream, but if JTA ran a free weekend restaurant/night life PCT trolley around the core downtown in a 10 minute headway loop, it might do wonders for Bay Street, the Landing, and everyone else downtown and serve as the model for a streetcar route in the future.

It would take church goers to the landing and hotel guests to Bay Street, the Landing, and other locations around downtown.  One could park anywhere downtown, walk a few feet to a trolley stop, and be anywhere in no time with minimal walks.

This solution is instant and cheap compared to other options.  Costs could be recovered by DVI and/or increased property values derived from improved business. (Or, by taking the $14 million loss on the $ky-high-way and redirecting it to something useful!   ;D)

Quote from: stjr on December 14, 2009, 11:23:30 AM
.............. if JTA ran a free weekend restaurant/night life PCT trolley around the core downtown in a 10 minute headway loop,..............It would take church goers to the landing and hotel guests to Bay Street, the Landing, and other locations around downtown.  One could park anywhere downtown, walk a few feet to a trolley stop, and be anywhere in no time with minimal walks.

This solution is instant and cheap ...........

So what are the hours?  Friday 1700 through Monday 0700? Over all I don't think that would be "cheap" as you think. It would be less expensive than building another skyway yes, but not inexpensive. 

Besides all that Beach Road Chicken Dinners is not downtown. I've run into some of my FBC friends at the Fruit Cove Loop on their way home from church.  One does not always stop to eat at  at the first chance you get. 

Quote from: Overstreet on December 14, 2009, 12:10:21 PM
So what are the hours?  Friday 1700 through Monday 0700? Over all I don't think that would be "cheap" as you think. It would be less expensive than building another skyway yes, but not inexpensive. 

Besides all that Beach Road Chicken Dinners is not downtown. I've run into some of my FBC friends at the Fruit Cove Loop on their way home from church.  One does not always stop to eat at  at the first chance you get. 

The cost is relative here.  Reviewing much of the discussion about how to revitalize downtown we've seen a lot of discussion on mass transit (specifically rail), tax incentives for redevelopment of existing structures and plenty of debate on convention centers, marinas, museums, etc do bring people to downtown.  Well we already have people downtown and the relative cost of some PCTs running a few hours on Sunday is minuscule compared to the aforementioned ideas.

We already have the people, we already have the PCTs.  Why aren't we taking advantage of that?  If we can't take advantage of those why would anyone think that spending tens or hundreds of millions on other infrastructure would yield any better results?

Quite simple.  PCTs don't stimulate economic development.  They should not even be discussed when talking about using fixed mass transit to as a catalyst for permanent urban connectivity and private infill development.  If they did, downtown would be booming right now, considering they have been on the streets for years.

Quote from: untarded on December 14, 2009, 12:24:25 PM

Quote from: Overstreet on December 14, 2009, 12:10:21 PM
So what are the hours?  Friday 1700 through Monday 0700? Over all I don't think that would be "cheap" as you think. It would be less expensive than building another skyway yes, but not inexpensive.  

Besides all that Beach Road Chicken Dinners is not downtown. I've run into some of my FBC friends at the Fruit Cove Loop on their way home from church.  One does not always stop to eat at  at the first chance you get.  

The cost is relative here.  Reviewing much of the discussion about how to revitalize downtown we've seen a lot of discussion on mass transit (specifically rail), tax incentives for redevelopment of existing structures and plenty of debate on convention centers, marinas, museums, etc do bring people to downtown.  Well we already have people downtown and the relative cost of some PCTs running a few hours on Sunday is minuscule compared to the aforementioned ideas.

We already have the people, we already have the PCTs.  Why aren't we taking advantage of that?  If we can't take advantage of those why would anyone think that spending tens or hundreds of millions on other infrastructure would yield any better results?

I'm 100% FOR running shuttles and the Skyway, on schedules that would encourage the use of downtown churches, clubs and bars. What I bemoan is the FACT that the "PCT Trolley" has proved itself in tests to not effect ridership at all. It is not a magic bullet, and if we think it will create vibrant downtown space, Sunday or any other day we are deluding ourselves. ANY shuttle bus would work and frankly, as the PCT coaches are more "plastic" then the regular coaches, they don't stand up to the job nearly as well. Our first fleet (the black ones) encountered mechanical trouble within ONE WEEK of delivery, resulting in all of the trailer cars being parked. Now the entire batch is going out the door.

As for taking advantage of the PCTs, we ought to milk them for everything their worth, and plan on running them until real streetcars can replace them on their current routes. This would allow us to bump them to other parts of town, or as a streetcar purist, turn them into an artificial reef about 10 miles off shore.

The reason for the rail investment is that because it is fixed, investment piles on along the routes. Nobody is going to build a $500,000,000 dollar office tower downtown because we have carnival or Amusement Park, PCTs.  You REALLY want to do the Jethro Bodine on some top executive from New York or LA, just smile and tell them, "Shazam, we don't need streetcars, we already have trolleys!"

OCKLAWAHA
You got off Light STJR

I think we can all AGREE that PCT's do NOT create economic development, urban infill or anything of the like. I think we can all agree that PCT's are not going to be the savior of Downtown or any other neighborhood. What they can do is move people. That's all they do. They serve a market, not create it. Now, please let's hear more ideas about how to keep churchgoers Downtown on Sunday for lunch. Then I think we should forward this link to DVI.

I absolutely agree that PCTs are not a long term solution and don't believe they will stimulate any further downtown development. And I'm not a PCT fan. My point was that we have low lying fruit that we can capture now relatively inexpensively and we have people there now on Sundays.  If our city leaders can't leverage these inexpensive opportunities how well are they going to leverage the expensive ones?

I'm all in on fixed rail connecting the entire urban core.  I'm a Springfield resident and live close to Main St.  The thought of real trolleys going down Main St is practically a Utopian dream to me.

Quote from: fsujax on December 14, 2009, 01:13:10 PM
I think we can all AGREE that PCT's do NOT create economic development, urban infill or anything of the like. I think we can all agree that PCT's are not going to be the savior of Downtown or any other neighborhood. What they can do is move people. That's all they do. They serve a market, not create it. Now, please let's hear more ideas about how to keep churchgoers Downtown on Sunday for lunch. Then I think we should forward this link to DVI.

How about setting up a mini artwalk type event that runs from the church down to the Landing on Sundays?

I have enjoyed the series in the paper quite a bit so far.  The piece on Sunday was very interesting, especially for someone like me who has only lived in Jax for about five years.  It is educational and aggravating to read the comments on the TU website about downtown (there's an article somewhere about things to stop doing to make you smarter -- reading online news story comments is one of them), but it got me thinking. 

I wonder if the problem with downtown is a "perception is reality" versus "reality is real".  The unwashed masses would have you believe that as soon as you cross over the Hart, Matthews, Main, or Acosta bridges, you are likely to be mugged, murdered and raped -- all before having to pay for parking 50 blocks away from your destination.  I have always enjoyed my time downtown.  Always have found a place to park.  Never really having a problem with the $0.25 or $0.50 to park no more than two blocks away from my destination.  I have found a few good places to eat, love checking out books at the library, and generally taking in the sights.  Could it be better?  Sure.  I'd love to see a thriving Landing.  It would be GREAT to have a college downtown.  It would be nice to have some better connectivity to the sports complex.  All in all though, downtown is downtown.  Nothing special.  Nothing terrible. 

I do not mean to downplay the mistakes by the current administration.  They are there.  They are quite noticeable, especially the business with the DDA rolling into JEDC.  It seems obvious that more downtown residents would be the tipping point for everything else to follow from a private side (corporate, restaurants, entertainment) as well as a public side (all things connectivity related). 

So, what comes first?  Do increased residents drive everything else, or does everything else give residents a reason to live downtown.  Downtown living isn't for everyone.  It isn't intended to be for everyone.  Many/most people will continue to want to live in the suburbs.  The yard, the kids, and all that jazz.  But there is a group that wants to live in a vibrant downtown.  I would even go so far as to say that these are also the types of people that corporations want as well.  Well-educated, young, professional, active, and mobile.

^^ Excellent post.

The residents or at least the visitor's have to come first.  Retail has to have a population base to support it.  You start with the pioneers, like the people that live in Springfield.  Eventually the tipping point is reached and the Riverside and later Avondale crowds (socio-economically speaking) find the environment created by the pioneers to be acceptable enough to start joining in.  Eventually the national retailers join the path the local retailers (also pioneers) have already created.

That's an oversimplication, but it is the basic formula.  One question is, does Jax have enough pioneers to go around to sufficiently pull this off.  I don't know the answer to that.  I use to think the answer was probably, but now I'm am not sure.

The city's role is to pro-actively create the clean, safe, attractive, well-connected environment that will draw the pioneers and convince them their vision and risk will be realized/rewarded.

During today's Urban Jacksonville Weekly where we spoke with the editor of this piece,  I recommended people head to Metro Jacksonville for relevant and thoughtful discussion, as opposed to the Jacksonville.com comments. Jacksonville.com added a call out to this post in the Downtown feature section, encouraging people to head here for discussion. Thanks for continuing to provide thoughtful discussion on this topic.

QuoteUrban Jacksonville Weekly #45 â€" Discussing Downtown Dilemma with the Times Union
Listen Now » http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/12/15/urban-jacksonville-weekly-45-discussing-downtown-dilemma-with-the-times-union

Finally, if you want to access all the content from this sprawling series just go to:
http://jacksonville.com/news/downtown

QuoteThe article goes on to immortalize the kvetching of the twin gravitational pulse drive of downtown negativity.  Jerry Moran and Farah.

The newfangled solution is to Kill the Messenger?

Sunday's edition was excellent, Monday was a let down. I don't need to know that the homeless need their Heineken at 7 AM, what sort of lesson is that? I can go get Christmas Cheer spread all over my face at the local girlie show bar, but when can we print that moral lesson? Downtown is not full of saints, TU (are you listening), but it is full of emptyness, we need to fill.

Jerry Moran has done a great job of staying in a position for so many years. He has done it, so could others. The problem is businesses. If there were more of them downtown, people would live downtown and the support mechanisms would come. The fact that our "leaders" allow businesses to migrate to the burbs, kills off any future we have for downtown.

Peyton -Grab your jocks. Its time for the Mayor to step up and bring businesses back to downtown. Forget the fact that "we have all the building blocks in place - yuk, yuk, yuk", be a leader, bring Gate downtown, get Gate out of the suburbs. Lead by example. Downtown depends on leadership and we need leadership by example.

Downtown will not be fixed by a rail car line or trolley system. But feel free to post 1,000 color pictures to prove the point.

What I find noticeably absent from the discussion so far, 2 of 5 days, is Paul Crawford and Ron Barton from the dialogue. Our 2 most important downtown champions, and they are.....unavailable for comment?

Vicup and RGC. If we can learn nothing else from Springfield, there are people from all over the US who are willing, in fact, looking, to move downtown. All the city of Jacksonville has to do it push the people who own downtown properties (incentivize, or even put a tax moratorium downtown) to make space available for renters and buyers.

You bring more residents downtown, I believe the rest falls in place, and all of these TU forumers can go on sticking their head in the sand about how perfect Kernan Blvd is, and how awful Bay St is, and it wont make a lick of difference.

Dan - We have the people downtown, 2500 of them, its now that we need to figure out how to bring more downtown. In the paper today, the people who are living there also WORK there. We need more businesses downtown to draw residents downtown. The main reason, I see, for the flight was that businesses were allowed (not incentivized) to leave and move to the Southside. Why did Kernan explode to begin with? The whole Gate area exploded with businesses and office complexes.

Had this business been kept downtown, it would be a very very different place today.

I completely agree with you, except in that business needs to lead the way. When white flight happened, downtown WAS a business power house.

I believe residents lead the way. Here in Springfield I know of MANY people who live here, but work on JTB, or Deerwood park. In fact, as a Springfield resident/downtown worker, I am among the minority here.

Springfield shows that residential can lead the way. Its a well known fact that our commercial corridor has always lagged behind our residential market.

The city has to lead the way.  Right know we have an uneven playing field.  Compared to developing in the suburban areas of town, its more expensive and a hassle to do the same in the urban core.  Give people a reason to come to the core and invest.  Make it a viable option and we'll see more success. 

The city is going to have to invest in things that enhance the area's quality of life aspects, yet do so in a manner that promotes connectivity and density to lay the foundation for stimulating additional development.  This could mean, giving a company/schools,etc. heavy incentives to come to the core, investing in real transit to better connect the urban core residential base with the CBD, true tax abatement and shifting public money from the burbs to the core (we obviously have no problem doing this the other way around). There is no one solution to the problems DT faces but the overall theme remains the same. 

Dan - Springfield is a neighborhood, and we're talking about downtown here. So please work with me and focus on downtown, not Riverside, Springfield or San Marco.

Lake - What can city leaders do to make downtown more attractive? Incentivize, plain and simple. They can make downtown more attractive. We have to get back to incentivizing downtown, instead of this idiotic shutdown of all subsidies to attract investment. We need new leaders who share the same vision, the problem is that too much of Jacksonville is spread out to care what happens to downtown. So we will need a vibrant leader who can show that as downtown goes, so goes the rest of the City/County.

Mtrain, Im with you for the most part, honestly. I just think part of the problem is people dont look at downtown as a neighborhood. It very much is, and should be looked at as a neighborhood. When people live in a place, they use its amenities, open stores that fill voids they and their neighbors have, and generally bring a vibrancy to an area that just having a business would not bring. Would you call a Strip-mall, even a full occupied one VIBRANT?

I wouldnt. I would call it functional, I would call it active, but I wouldn't call it vibrant.

Quote from: mtraininjax on December 15, 2009, 07:47:56 AM
So we will need a vibrant leader who can show that as downtown goes, so goes the rest of the City/County.

I think this is the KEY to this whole issue -- and I'm a southside yuppie living in a condo that I purchased before shortly before the peak.  I would love to see southside continue to grow and fix some of the remaining issues that it has.  However, I am cognizant of the above fact.  I think there is a lot of short-sidedness that in someone not wanting a vibrant downtown.  The city itself should be a tourist attraction -- not just tourist attractions within a city.  I think it would enhance a real sense of pride to have a vibrant downtown.  It becomes a unifying point across all 841 sq miles.  People would want to go to Jags games, not just to be at the game, but also because it is a good excuse to be downtown.  

That kind of attraction keeps fresh money flowing through corporations and people's pocket books.  -- and ultimately back into city coffers.

The general malaise towards downtown is amazing.  Blindness to the potential.

I don't know Mtrain if you incentivize(pay) businesses not to move don't they just keep coming back with their hands out. An incentive now and then is going to be needed to help with start up costs or relocating to an area.
What you do is sell some of the building stock that our leaders only want fourtune 500s to come bail them out.  You invest in infrastructure that promotes private investment my choice fixed rail transit.  Stop paying companies to move to the southside a practice Peyton suggested but never followed through with.

An add campaign that dispelled the commonly held belief that their is a shortage of parking throughout downtown when the truth is we have much more than we need might be the cheapest route to success.

Look for the court house to get the downtown ball rolling again.

Quote from: JeffreyS on December 15, 2009, 10:16:57 AM

An add campaign that dispelled the commonly held belief that their is a shortage of parking throughout downtown when the truth is we have much more than we need might be the cheapest route to success.

LOVE this idea!  It could be done easily -- with a simple message.

Even more parking could be on the way, if the owner of the Park View Inn gets his way.  Another parking garage. yeah.

^And just what businesses would that serve?

Before you talk about "success" or "failure" of downtown, it is important to define the goal. Only then can you talk about "succeeding" or "failing" to reach this goal.

Downtown has succeeded in largely keeping social problems away from the suburb. Containing the jail, the shelters downtown, with a belt of low income rentals and social services stretching north. downtown has been a success. Where else would these people go? Do you want to develop downtown on the backs of the poor and homeless? Downtown has a well established blight-driving economic fabric. Why destroy what succeed so well in attracting millions in state and federal grants. The housing projects behind Shands may be a failure to some. But they just attracted actual stimulus money. I don't see any rail stimulus coming to jacksonville yet.

You won't get rail stimulus money if you don't ask or it or have a plan ready to go for it.  Nevertheless, if we are lucky, we may get some money for the Amtrak/FEC project.

not to worry, John Peyton will eventually leave office and he will move back to St. Johns county where is was living before becoming mayor.  Then all of his GOB's will pat him on the back for a job well.......done.

FlDrifter is right though, looking at it from the lens of a suburbanite, downtown has been a huge success, why change a thing?  where are all those vagrants supposed to go, surely not their neighborhoods.

I think an issue in recent times has been the distractions caused by the severe stress on the City's finances by the perfect storm of a State legislature interfering with home rule by attacking the local tax structure compounded by the worst economy since the depression.  This has been matched against an administration that, depending on your point of view, has been overwhelmed by this and certain other inherited issues, such as the Courthouse, Cecil, and Trail Ridge, and/or simply lacks the horsepower to multitask properly all the issues facing the City.  Regardless, here we are.

Will new leadership get us back on track?  An improving economy?  A more progressive attitude from the voters? Support, instead of corrosive interference from Tallahassee?  Perhaps, a combination of all.  Many times opportunities are fortuitous and it seems we have been having a run of bad luck.   Fortunately, bad times are often the mother of new creativity and inventiveness that foster better times.  For sure, it can only improve from here and, as such, I, too, remain optimistic.  Jax has a wealth of natural assets that have yet to be fully appreciated and exploited.  Like the pulling of King Arthur's sword, we await the right person(s) and times to leverage them.

I agree that the changes we all seek are not going to come from the current crop of city fathers.  2010 is probably not going to see much change with the economy we have either.

So...  what do we do NOW to see that an effective group of people who 'get it' get elected starting in 2011?  I've already posted about my desire to see MJ conduct interviews, make endorsenments and campaign contributions to worthy candidates.  


Before that though, lets identify people who would be good candidates.  Who are the city council members worth keeping?  Who are the community leaders that can run for the other seats.  Keep in mind that different districts are involved.

If you had to power to individually name ever member of council and the mayor, who would you choose?      

^^ Not following you there Stephen.  The list might be missing a few names, but all those listed seem to belong on it to me.  The regency Centers guy might be the only one I would question.   

sorry Stephen...I have to disagree 100%.

So is Toney Sleiman not important to downtown?

Kelly Madden - as leader of the Chamber, she can promote downtown...we have to change the mindset of corporate leadership in this town...that's what Charlotte did.

Terry Lorrince - she heads up the primary downtown advocacy organization.
Bill Cesry - developer/owner of the Libray project...pretty impotant to the Entertainment District
Rev. Brunson - we all know how strong First Baptist has been....they can also be an advocate
Mike Blaylock - imagine the impact BRT would have had on downtown streets....clearly JTA is a major player
Ron Barton - JEDC has review/approval authority for all downtown projects
Tony Allegretti - enough said

The only major void I see is citizen leadership....that's where all of us come in.

He's right though... there are only 2 maybe on that slide that make a difference as far as what the TU article is relating to....

why do you say that?

If we're talking about building a convention center and creating a loop that includes Laura Street, the Landing, and the Bay Street area then folks like Toney Sleiman, Terry Lorrince, Ron Barton, Bill Cesey, and Tony Allgretti are directly involved/impacted.

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 17, 2009, 12:47:31 PM
why do you say that?

If we're talking about building a convention center and creating a loop that includes Laura Street, the Landing, and the Bay Street area then folks like Toney Sleiman, Terry Lorrince, Ron Barton, Bill Cesey, and Tony Allgretti are directly involved/impacted.

"Talking" is the key word here. I tend to agree with Stephen about the 2 or 3 people mentioned - that's nowhere near as important as the ones that were NOT mentioned and are actually "doing" as opposed to just "talking."

The TU article expressly talks about the future of Downtown, and many of these "people" along with their ideas aren't aimed at improving the city. They're more concerned with improving their pocket, so once an idea or development no longer is conducive to capitalizing on the misfortunes of the city, it slowly goes away and is never again mentioned.

Rood owns 11E. and The Carling, but has no ties that I know of to Berkman Plaza I or II, the Strand, the Peninsula, the numerous Cathedral rental properties, the Parks at the Cathedral, The Metropolitan, Ashley Tower, Knight Lofts, San Marco Place, Home Street Lofts, Churchwell Lofts, the perpetually under construction 20 W. Adams project, or the budding Ambassador Hotel project.  If I am overlooking/unaware of any such ties, please inform, otherwise he is NOT the ONLY owner of viable residential real estate DT.

Cesery owns a major residential project in San Marco, and built the first major new mixed-use project in Springfield since the first season of 'Lucy'.  Plus he is involved in the Old Library project. Sure it's on hold.  WHAT PROJECT ISN'T right now?! Banks aren't lending money. 

Allegretti is involved with Burrito Gallery, the Old Library, Urban Market and numerous Springfield projects in addition to being deeply involved from the beginning in BOTH the RAM and Artwalk.  He is involved with DVI too and easily belongs on the list.

I could discuss others, but that is all I have time for at the moment.  However, just because you disagree with someone's agenda or vision, doesn't mean that aren't a player (Blaylock, Diamond,etc.).  Also, Bailey WAS on the list as the next potential mayor.   

I do agree Carlton Jones probably doesn't belong on the list, at least not yet.

BTW, what are Steve Wallace's plans for FCCJ/Florida State, I have missed any public disclosure of that.   


   

I see that Stephen has chosen to delete his original post (which I and others reponded to) and replace it with one featuring a longer explanation....one in which he states trhat there are onlyu 1 or two useful names on the list....then provides three...nice!

Are you kidding me? 11E and the Carling have really been the only viable residental choices unless you are super rich or completely off your rocker. Ashley Tower is now called City Place, btw. It's not "good enough" for out of towners. So yes, there is a residential "dilemma" downtown, like it or not.

Berkman Plaza I is going down the tubes, fast. Berkman II doesn't need any mention here. The other projects you've listed have been built purely around taking advantage of and capitalizing on markets long dead to fill someone's pocket before they moved on, without regard to the long term effects it would have on DT.

The Strand is 25% occupied. The Peninsula forced a handful of people to close on 2-3 year ago preconstruction prices, otherwise the buyers would have lost their 20% ($60-500k+) deposits. Many walked away or couldn't close.

really...one needs to be super-rich to buy a 1500+ sf townhome at the Parks @ cathedral...several are currently selling for less than $200,000?

Quote from: stephendare on December 17, 2009, 02:39:13 PM
Cesery, as you mentioned only owns one project in the downtown.  While a very serious and good man, hes just not a key player downtown, even if the Library Project were going full steam he still wouldnt be.

huh?

Speaking of Rood, I wish he would get the Barnett building.  It is in much better shape (gutted with new windows) than the 11E and especially the Carling were at the beginning of those projects. 

If the city would put in the garage, and give him a deal on spaces, he might go for it. I'd rather see that than a revamped Metro Park. It would do a lot more good.  Doing the Laura Trio project would make more sense if the Barnett was rehabbed too.

Spending money to revamp Metro Park should be put on ice.  There are a ton of urban core projects out there that will get the city more bang for its bucks.