(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/cover_green_metropolis1b.jpg)
http://www.progressivebookclub.com/pbc2/viewBook.pbc?id=1902
Oh, horror, what a shocker...........urban planners disagree on sustainability!!
QuoteWhile the conventional wisdom condemns it as an environmental nightmare, Manhattan is by far the greenest place in America, argues this stimulating eco-urbanist manifesto. According to Owen (Sheetrock and Shellac), staff writer at the New Yorker, New York City is a model of sustainability: its extreme density and compactnessâ€"and horrifically congested trafficâ€"encourage a carfree lifestyle centered on walking and public transit; its massive apartment buildings use the heat escaping from one dwelling to warm the ones adjoining it; as a result, he notes, New Yorkers' per capita greenhouse gas emissions are less than a third of the average American's.
The author attacks the powerful anti-urban bias of American environmentalists like Michael Pollan and Amory Lovins, whose rurally situated, auto-dependent Rocky Mountain Institute he paints as an ecological disaster area. The environmental movement's disdain for cities and fetishization of open space, backyard compost heaps, locavorism and high-tech gadgetry like solar panels and triple-paned windows is, he warns, a formula for wasteful sprawl and green-washed consumerism. Owen's lucid, biting prose crackles with striking facts that yield paradigm-shifting insights. The result is a compelling analysis of the world's environmental predicament that upends orthodox opinion and points the way to practical solutions
http://www.amazon.com/Green-Metropolis-Smaller-Driving-Sustainability/dp/1594488827
Living in Poinciana ( a Sunrail end point) was the Biggest mistake I ever made!!
THAT is why I call Sunrail: Sprawl Rail!!!
So you call Sunrail "sprawl rail" because it attempts to serve the existing population where they actually live, instead of completely ignoring them?
I don't think anyone can disagree with the premise of the book, but we have to work with what we've got. Traditional neighborhoods aren't built overnight, but I think we can all agree that higher density communities will be more common in the future. Cities can no longer afford to extend infrastructure and continue sprawl - not to mention repair the infrastructure that is already deteriorating.
related,perhaps of interest:
www.resourcesforlife.com/small-house-society
www.livinglargeinourlittlehouse.com
tinyhouseblog.com
QuoteTraditional neighborhoods aren't built overnight
Do you have an example, especially in Jacksonville?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2009, 01:12:25 PM
So you call Sunrail "sprawl rail" because it attempts to serve the existing population where they actually live, instead of completely ignoring them?
lakelander, the migration back into the major cities started to occur decades ago in Europe. The US is decades behind that movement. We need to encourage movement back into the cities rather than enabling and accomodating sprawl!!
Why not put triple paned windows and compost heaps/ green roofs in NYC?? Just because heat happens to warm surrounding units, doesn't mean it should have ever escaped in the first place.
Not loving the sound of his argument, but it's definitely worth a closer look. Thanks Faye.
Yup, one can go green in Manhattan - check out No-Impact Man. He experimented (with wife and toddler, no less) with making as little environmental impact as possible, for an entire year, while living in NYC. He comments several times that an urban environment is perfect for lowering our carbon footprint. No take-out food, no plastic, off the grid. He even managed to eat locally (picked 250 miles as his radius), snuck a solar panel up on the roof, and used a worm bin to compost his food scraps.
Not for the faint of heart, totally over-the-top, but an interesting experiment nonetheless. http://noimpactman.typepad.com/blog/
Anyhoo, no need to villify our cities. We need city, we need country. We just don't need a huge swath of suburb/exurb in between.
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 11, 2009, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2009, 01:12:25 PM
So you call Sunrail "sprawl rail" because it attempts to serve the existing population where they actually live, instead of completely ignoring them?
lakelander, the migration back into the major cities started to occur decades ago in Europe. The US is decades behind that movement. We need to encourage movement back into the cities rather than enabling and accomodating sprawl!!
but every major city in Europe has regional commuter rail in addition to urban rail transit and intercity rail....why should we be any different Faye?
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 11, 2009, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2009, 01:12:25 PM
So you call Sunrail "sprawl rail" because it attempts to serve the existing population where they actually live, instead of completely ignoring them?
lakelander, the migration back into the major cities started to occur decades ago in Europe. The US is decades behind that movement. We need to encourage movement back into the cities rather than enabling and accomodating sprawl!!
Orlando was never a major city. It was a small agricultural/citrus town like the rest of Central Florida's cities. It only began to rapidly grow in the 70s/80s after Disney opened. The places people assume are Orlando suburbs, in most cases, are older cities connected to Orlando by late 20th century sprawl. So it can be argued that Sunrail does just what Faye is promoting, considering the stations are in the heart of several cities of these four counties.
There is also another phase to the plan that will use the Florida Central. Trains would leave the mainline at Church Street Station, then head out along OBT, 441, through Apopka, Plymouth, Tavares, Eustis. Like you said Lake, these were all/are all independent Cities. Sunrail uses a very Conservative route to move from City Center to City Center, no waste or missing them by 5-10 miles as the RatRail will do. Talk about forcing SPRAWL, build the railroad far from town and badda bing, badda biff, we've got 5-10 miles of new sprawl, all the way to the depot. THIS is what is right about SunRail and wrong about RatRail (Florida's High Speed Rail Dream).
OCKLAWAHA
Ock I agree..............big difference between Sunrail and Ratrail as you pointed out! Sunrail has much more potential along with development then Ratrail does based on current proposed route! When you take into account neither system has a connection point between the two systems ......you end up with two separate systems and no way to transfer which defeats the whole point of a people moving system....access!
QuoteSunRail â€" who won, who lost?
By Dan Tracy
ORLANDO SENTINEL
Here's a look at who came out ahead â€" for now â€" and who didn't when SunRail cleared the Legislature on Tuesday:
Winners
The unemployed: SunRail proponents maintain that up to 6,700 construction jobs could be created by the $1.2billion project, with the work lasting five years and likely starting next year. That could be a big deal in Central Florida, where the unemployment rate tops 11percent. There also could be related jobs opportunities in the stores, shops and businesses expected to spring up around the 17 stations along the 61.5-mile system stretching from DeLand in Volusia County through downtown Orlando to Poinciana in Osceola County.
All together, SunRail advocates contend the system will create 260,000-plus jobs during the next 30years, with a fiscal impact of $8.8billion.
Motorists: Drivers on Interstate4 might see some relief from SunRail, though not much, considering it is the most heavily traveled road in Central Florida, with more than 200,000 motorists daily.
SunRail is expected to attract 4,300 passengers a day when it starts up. That might seem small, especially compared with I-4. But backers say that number is purposely conservative and they contend it will be higher, once people start using it to shop at the stores on Park Avenue in Winter Park or to get to work or visit patients at Florida Hospital or Orlando Health, both of which have stops.[/color]
Mass transit: Besides qualifying the state for potential high-speed money, the bill creates a new rail authority that could spur efforts to create train systems all over the state.
Developers: One reason county and city officials pushed for SunRail so much was because they want to encourage more density in the urban core and discourage the sprawl that has marked much of the new development in recent decades. There should be plenty of opportunities for builders to put up apartments, shops, restaurants and offices near the stations.
Tri-Rail: The bill that approved SunRail also set aside money to keep the Tri-Rail line in South Florida from going out of business. As many as 15,000 daily riders won't have to go back to their cars or figure out another way to get to and from work. And if Tri-Rail went broke, the state likely would have been forced to pay back $256 million borrowed from the federal government to expand the system.
Losers
Tea Party: The anti-tax group lobbied hard against SunRail, arguing the project was too expensive and would become a long-standing boondoggle to taxpayers. A dozen or so Tea Party members gathered at the Capitol to protest the bill that created SunRail, but their efforts went for naught.
Politicians: The chief opponent, Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, is running for governor. She called in all her favors but in the end could muster only 10 votes in the 40-member chamber during the special session. Democratic Orlando Sen. Gary Siplin, who's in his last term, also was against SunRail, just as he was during a previous session. He contended money that will be spent on the train should go for education. His stand will not endear him to the rest of the Central Florida delegation, which went with SunRail but for one other notable exception: Republican Sen. Carey Baker of Eustis also cast a no vote, reversing his earlier support.
East-side, west-side Orlandoans: Because commuter rail will run north and south along I-4, it won't be a viable option for most residents of the region's burgeoning east and west sides. And it could be years, if ever, before light-rail systems are built to serve those areas.
In limbo
The union: It's not clear yet whether the AFL-CIO won or lost in this fight. Its leaders fought the train, saying the state was using it as a way to bust the union and fire 200 or more rail workers in the state. According to a document released Tuesday, the only sure thing the AFL-CIO got was a promise from lawmakers that eight signalmen jobs on the SunRail line would be union workers. But they also got a promise by executives at South Florida's Tri-Rail system that before they take over maintenance and dispatch of the 72-mile system from CSX, they will "reach out" to union officials about the roughly 109 union members who now hold those jobs. The union opposition was critical in keeping many South Florida Democrats from backing SunRail during the previous two sessions.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-sunrail-winners-losers-20091209,0,2357131.story
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2009, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 11, 2009, 02:14:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2009, 01:12:25 PM
So you call Sunrail "sprawl rail" because it attempts to serve the existing population where they actually live, instead of completely ignoring them?
lakelander, the migration back into the major cities started to occur decades ago in Europe. The US is decades behind that movement. We need to encourage movement back into the cities rather than enabling and accomodating sprawl!!
Orlando was never a major city. It was a small agricultural/citrus town like the rest of Central Florida's cities. It only began to rapidly grow in the 70s/80s after Disney opened. The places people assume are Orlando suburbs, in most cases, are older cities connected to Orlando by late 20th century sprawl. So it can be argued that Sunrail does just what Faye is promoting, considering the stations are in the heart of several cities of these four counties.
These are NOT cities,........the town of Kissimmee can hardly be considered a city, it is a rural community, and certainly Poinciana was a "created community," which to my knowledge NEVER outgrew the 10,000 residents, similar to what is expected to happen to Golf World Village where there are ghost areas of unfinished real estate.
Other areas in the US have pointed to the sprawl rail possibility on similar grounds:
QuoteExtending the Hudson Line into northern Dutchess County poses several questions, which must be addressed in an Environmental Impact Statement and Major Investment Study. Is there existing demand for commuter service in Northern Dutchess? Or, will the extension create new demand by causing new waves of growth and sprawl in rural communities? Will the loss of farmland and rural character accelerate?
The answers to these questions for Sprawl rail in Central Florida are:
1. NO, there barely is any existing demand
2. YES, it will be a boon to developers causing new waves of growth in rural communities
No matter how you try to spin this, Sunrail is being built to benefit developers, NOT existing residents!!!
What really should be happening is that people start moving out of created areas such as Poinciana, and start living closer to their places of employment in Orlando. That's what sustainable urban planning is all about. Having people live near their places of employment.
I moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!
QuoteLosers
Tea Party: The anti-tax group lobbied hard against SunRail, arguing the project was toyo expensive and would become a long-standing boondoggle to taxpayers. A dozen or so Tea Party members gathered at the Capitol to protest the bill that created SunRail, but their efforts went for naught
Faye, nice post. Now you've got me all mixed up with what ever the hell a Tea Party is... Are we talking political party? A new Party? So YOUR views are representative of the Tea Party, and according to you mine are too? and we have completely different views? WTF? As I said, been in South America and have as little with politics as possible. It certainly is different in Colombia!
I agree that the numbers are quite low ball. If there is going to be a successful commuter rail project anywhere in the State of Florida, running parallel to I-4 and 17-92 would be it. Our own US 17 and US 1/I-95 have to rank very close.
Yesterday I met the consultant for the Bridge of the Lions Restoration, I can tell you they are trying hard to get it right. She is from Miami, and immediately offered that the new rail bill is great news as "It might finally get South Florida to get Tri-Rail on the right tracks..." According to her the whole damn project over on the CSX, (which having lived there might as well be in the Everglades) was a political play of some sort. "Don't let the Politicians decide Jacksonville's rail system..." Good advice. Anyone that doesn't know the details in South Florida, understand that the Florida East Coast Railway, got there in the 1890's. As the original railroad, the FEC is right in the heart of town for every city in the Megalopolis. The Seaboard didn't arrive until the 1920's and by that time the Cities were already developed forcing them way out west in the edge of town. South Florida (and Jacksonville) still have the Florida East Coast, and the old Seaboard is today's CSX. Picking the wrong railroad is all of the reasons for Tri-Rails troubles, and even with it, they've done fairly well. She updated me on plans to shift some operations over to the FEC, thus spreading the load and doubling the ease of access. Jacksonville's Amtrak Station is another example of getting it completely wrong.
Certainly rail here, or rail there, where ever it goes, it's a good thing.OCKLAWAHA
QuoteThe answers to these questions for Sprawl rail in Central Florida are:
1. NO, there barely is any existing demand
2. YES, it will be a boon to developers causing new waves of growth in rural communities
No matter how you try to spin this, Sunrail is being built to benefit developers, NOT existing residents!!!
What really should be happening is that people start moving out of created areas such as Poinciana, and start living closer to their places of employment in Orlando. That's what sustainable urban planning is all about. Having people live near their places of employment.
I moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!
Wrong again Faye. Sure you can find sites that state "Rail will cause sprawl..." I can show you sites that prove the Earth is flat, and that BRT buses can carry more people then trains. Wrong.
Your life in Poinciana is hardly representative of the balance of the Orlando Metro Area. Having lived in Sanford and Heathrow, as well as West Volusia, I can't even imagine what roads you were on. No demand? Really? Ever been on I-4 Southbound in Lake Mary, Maitland, Winter Park, Taft in the rush hourS. Leaving downtown at 4 pm on Colonial one can see I-4 is already crawling, and it will continue until 6:00, at least.
Sure the rail line WILL spur massive development, there are already plans and construction all along it. BINGO, Along it, not 5 miles away from it. Commuter Rail creates dense concentrations of urban life centered around stations. Commuter Rail development might include urban, in town type Publix, Walmart, and such, but rarely plaza style sprawl in outlaying area's. The reason for this is found in the very concept itself, by nature Commuter Rail allows one to PARK the family car and ride, it certainly doesn't encourage more automobile use.
Without those automobiles people must stay centered on the stations or the concept AND THE DEVELOPERS will fail. Trust us, those developers will follow Sunrail, but they are smart enough to realize every mile from the station equals less and less sales.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 12, 2009, 10:16:54 AM
These are NOT cities,........the town of Kissimmee can hardly be considered a city, it is a rural community, and certainly Poinciana was a "created community," which to my knowledge NEVER outgrew the 10,000 residents, similar to what is expected to happen to Golf World Village where there are ghost areas of unfinished real estate.
Kissimmee is completely different from Poinciana. Incorporated in 1883, as of 2006, Kissimmee had over 60,000 residents living inside of its municipal limits. It also has a walkable downtown area. A rail stop in DT Kissimmee only allows this historic city center to grow in density. The same goes for cities of Winter Park, Sanford and Deland.
Poinciana isn't an actual city. Its a 35 square mile deed restricted community. In 2000, it had a population of 13,647. As of 2007, its estimated that it's population had grown to 68,555. In any event, its not going anywhere and the people living in these communities continue to clog I-4 to get various destinations in the metro. Sunrail, gives the region a chance to pull some of the local trips off I-4, while encouraging sustainable urban pedestrian friendly development around its stations. Sunrail can possibly do for metro Orlando what Caltrain has done for San Francisco's bedroom communities. I don't see how making the region more walkable can be a bad thing.
QuoteOther areas in the US have pointed to the sprawl rail possibility on similar grounds:
QuoteExtending the Hudson Line into northern Dutchess County poses several questions, which must be addressed in an Environmental Impact Statement and Major Investment Study. Is there existing demand for commuter service in Northern Dutchess? Or, will the extension create new demand by causing new waves of growth and sprawl in rural communities? Will the loss of farmland and rural character accelerate?
There is nothing rural left about Kissimmee, Orlando, Winter Park, Altamonte Springs, Lake Mary and a host of other communities Sunrail will serve. These places have all been connected with post-Disney sprawl in the last 30 years. However, what rail will do is give these places the opportunity to city shape and redevelop low density sprawl into sustainable urban development. It has the power to do what DC's Metro did for Arlington County, VA.
QuoteThe answers to these questions for Sprawl rail in Central Florida are:
1. NO, there barely is any existing demand
2. YES, it will be a boon to developers causing new waves of growth in rural communities
1. Its got just as much demand as HSR, except its numbers are underestimated instead of overcooked.
2. Yes, it will be a boon to developers, causing new waves of sustainable growth in central Orlando, established suburbs and historic city centers of satellite cities.
QuoteNo matter how you try to spin this, Sunrail is being built to benefit developers, NOT existing residents!!!
It benefits both. A resident will be able to live in Winter Park and catch a train to Florida Hospital, DT Orlando or Kissimmee to work. A developer will be able to take a piece of blighted property in the old area south of DT Orlando and construct a transit friendly development in central Orlando as opposed to somewhere off of 436 or another far flung area.
QuoteWhat really should be happening is that people start moving out of created areas such as Poinciana, and start living closer to their places of employment in Orlando. That's what sustainable urban planning is all about. Having people live near their places of employment.
Poinciana may have been created recently, but most of the cities that will be served by Sunrail have been around since the late 1800s and are just as old and established as Orlando. We should be promoting sustainable growth in all of our communities instead of cherry picking.
QuoteI moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!
Why did you move there? That's one place I would avoid at all costs.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 12, 2009, 10:56:41 AM
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 12, 2009, 10:16:54 AM
QuoteI moved out of Poinciana for that very reason!
Why did you move there? That's one place I would avoid at all costs.
Regional Math? Poinciana = DELTONA SOUTH? Whats wrong with it? perhaps no Se Habla Español? OCKLAWAHA
Here is what I did not like about Poinciana when I lived in Central Florida.
1. Highly inaccessible.
2. Cheap tract home development.
3. Limited commercial base.
4. Lack of diversity and culture.
5. No industrial base.
6. Cheap looking architecture.
7. Not walkable.
With that said, I have not been to Poinciana in over a decade. Things may be different today.
Btw, I've never been a huge fan of Deltona either.
Sam, an MJ mutual acquaintance has a beautiful home, with a huge enclosed pool and party patio in Deltona. Got to hand it to them, what started as an early version of Poinciana almost exclusively for retired empty Nester's has changed radically. The good news is:
They took the initiative and Incorporated into the City of Deltona, second largest in Volusia County. Debary also Incorporated.
Both new Cities immediately set about cutting broad boulevards through the twisting maze of tiny under built streets.
Both new Cities have invested massive amounts into public works, water, sewer, ditching, lakes, ponds etc...
Both new Cities have bet the bank on new amenity's, civic buildings, library's, police and fire protection.
Deltona alone went from two sheriffs officers to a force of over 45.
Just spend a minute on their web sites, I say bravo to taking control of their own destiny.
http://www.deltonafl.gov/
http://www.debary.org/
OCKLAWAHA
Btw, population wise, Deltona is the largest municipality in Volusia. However, Daytona's urban area population is larger than Deltona's.
I find it interesting that the example of New York city dwellers as a good low carbon foot print can be used as an example against passenger rail roads.
People who actually live in New York don't have cars.(ref 2nd wife, 9 years NYC resident) When they travel they use the rails, busses, taxi or rent a car. So how can this be used against a rail system?
People who live in outskirts of New York or Chicago (aunt, resident 45yrs burbs, 15yrs Loop) drive to the station and ride the train into the city to work, theater, etc. OK, it might be more difficult without the train. But they would have done it any way since they desired to live in the burbs. Like all the folks in the Orlando Metro area, Atlanta Metro area, etc. do now with their cars.
Sprawl will happen with or without the rail.
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 11, 2009, 01:03:03 PM.............Living in Poinciana ( a Sunrail end point) was the Biggest mistake I ever made!!...............
I cannot judge living in Poinciana against the other mistakes you've made, but living in Poinciana is a mistake that can be quantified without bringing the rail line in the topic.
Poinciana is a deed restricted community run by an HOA. Most of us dislike HOAs that would be enough for us.
But most folks are already there and drive cars into the city if they are not already retired. I'm surprised you wouldn't want those 20,000 or so $16,000 per capita people to have rail available to lower their carbon foot print and provide afordable transportation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poinciana,_Florida
http://www.city-data.com/city/Poinciana-Florida.html
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 12, 2009, 10:31:34 AM
QuoteLosers
Tea Party: The anti-tax group lobbied hard against SunRail, arguing the project was toyo expensive and would become a long-standing boondoggle to taxpayers. A dozen or so Tea Party members gathered at the Capitol to protest the bill that created SunRail, but their efforts went for naught
Faye, nice post. Now you've got me all mixed up with what ever the hell a Tea Party is... Are we talking political party? A new Party? So YOUR views are representative of the Tea Party, and according to you mine are too? and we have completely different views? WTF? As I said, been in South America and have as little with politics as possible. It certainly is different in Colombia!
I agree that the numbers are quite low ball.
Not my post, sorry. But in regards to the Tea Party, both Paula Dockery and John Mica have spoken to Tea Party gatherings even though they both disagree on Sprwl Rail.
Paula Dockery spoke in Florida at Tea Party gathering and is a GOP candidate for governor as is Alex Sink for the Democrats. What ever happens I hope we finally get our first female governor.
John Mica spoke in Washington DC at a Tea Party gathering, but unlike the Tea-party folks, he supports Sprawl Rail.
Ock's anti-government rhetoric is Tea-partyish. John Mica is part of that government he so despises.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 12, 2009, 11:43:37 AM
Here is what I did not like about Poinciana when I lived in Central Florida.
1. Highly inaccessible.
2. Cheap tract home development.
3. Limited commercial base.
4. Lack of diversity and culture.
5. No industrial base.
6. Cheap looking architecture.
7. Not walkable.
With that said, I have not been to Poinciana in over a decade. Things may be different today.
Btw, I've never been a huge fan of Deltona either.
Exactly, so I find this disturbing:
QuoteAccording to the APV, the population stands at 68,555 as of January 2007. At the 2000 census, the population was 13,647 at the 2000 census, but like in many areas of Florida, this has grown substantially since the census date.
In 7 years they increased their population five-fold?!!? Incredible, I'm not sure I believe this. I briefly visited last summer and it didn't seem all that more developed except for the addition of a Publix and a Lowe's.
World Golf Village is not expected to grow much either, and with people opting to live closer to work, I know that's a trend that won't be stopped. Sprawl Rail enables and condones sprawl at the expense of liveable dense development inside Orlando close to work.
You must not be a fan of rail commuter rail in general. So how is HSR (which you are a fan of) supposed to create liveable desnse development in the region at the expense of sprawl? Over 80 miles in length, it will have only one urban stop (Tampa). The Lakeland, Disney, I-Drive and Orlando airport stations are in areas that mimic Poinciana as far as developing for the automobile and away from the city center goes.
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 12, 2009, 12:30:21 PM
Not my post, sorry. But in regards to the Tea Party, both Paula Dockery and John Mica have spoken to Tea Party gatherings even though they both disagree on Sprwl Rail.
Paula Dockery spoke in Florida at Tea Party gathering and is a GOP candidate for governor as is Alex Sink for the Democrats. What ever happens I hope we finally get our first female governor.
John Mica spoke in Washington DC at a Tea Party gathering, but unlike the Tea-party folks, he supports Sprawl Rail.
Ock's anti-government rhetoric is Tea-partyish. John Mica is part of that government he so despises.
Well Faye, I think you are quite confused as to where I stand... I did a bit of checking and best I can tell, the "Tea Party," is just another Less Government - No Taxes - Cut Everything (except freeways and the military) type groups. If John is part of that mess, he isn't leading me. So where am I politically? As I've said I'm an unrepentant Southron, that would dearly love to see Uncle Sam and the horse he rode in on gallop out of Florida! REVOLUTIONARY? You tell me. Less government? No, just OUR GOVERNMENT, local, states-rights, and providing for it's citizens without adventures in God knows where, for some Oil dude in Texas. When I say Southron, I do so proudly, but understand this is not the "Klan" type Southron, I'd just as soon shoot the whole bunch of those *#&@^! A South for Southrons of any color, race, religion or belief, that doesn't try and export it's will on the rest of the world. So is Ock a Commie? Go figure Comrade, go figure...Quote
FOR WHAT ITS WORTH...
There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Buffalo Springfield
Shades of a past life?
OCKLAWAHA
Would have thought that a Southron hippie would be a contradiction in terms, but that is obviously not the case!