Metro Jacksonville

Supporters say it sets rules for new projects; others say it's a costly windfall for CSX Corp.

TALLAHASSEE - The Senate overwhelmingly approved a commuter-rail measure Tuesday despite criticism from some that it would clear the way for a "sweetheart deal" for Jacksonville-based CSX Corp (NYSE: CSX).

Meeting in a special session - called in hopes of increasing the state's chances of snagging federal stimulus dollars for a high-speed rail project - the Senate voted 27-10 to send the legislation to Gov. Charlie Crist.

The House approved an identical measure Monday. Crist is expected to sign the bill.

"This bill is a framework to build a future infrastructure for the state of Florida," said Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Margate.

The margin was somewhat surprising, with some observers wondering earlier in the special session whether Senate leaders could muster the 21 votes needed to move the measure through the 40-member chamber.

Supporters in the Senate said the legislation was less about South Florida's Tri-Rail system and the proposed SunRail line for Central Florida than for setting rules for proposed or envisioned projects from Jacksonville to Tampa and beyond.

"It's not just about CSX railways; it's about a vision," said Sen. Nancy Detert, R-Venice.

But opponents zeroed in on the provisions dealing with SunRail and the purchasing of lines from CSX, which stands to make hundreds of millions from the transaction.

Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, and other opponents said the total tab for the SunRail line would be $641 million, or $10.5 million a mile - far higher than comparable projects in other parts of the country.

"We're overpaying for that track and we're setting another dangerous precedent," said Dockery, who is running for governor in 2010.

CSX hopes to use some of the funding on a $40 million plan to ease congestion along Jacksonville's Heckscher Drive. Tracks would be upgraded and a link built through Nassau County, connecting rails along U.S. 17 to the mainline running north toward Waycross, Ga.

"It gives us the opportunity to get the $40 million for the intermodal connectivity around the port, which I think will have an incredible impact on our ability to compete with Savannah, Charleston, other similar types of ports," said Sen. John Thrasher, R-St. Augustine. "It's a great opportunity for Jacksonville."

Jacksonville would also be a possible home for a future commuter rail project.

Opponents also highlighted provisions of the SunRail contract and the measure under which the state would assume liability in the event of a lawsuit against CSX. The company will still be allowed to run its freight trains along the lines at some times.

"We're not partners," scoffed Sen. Nan Rich, D-Sunrise. "They get all the money and we give the indemnity to them."

For its part, CSX disputes the cost figure cited by opponents and says the indemnity measure is not unusual and is necessary for the deal to go forward.

Gary Sease, a spokesman for the company, said the state will pay the company $432 million for the 61 miles of line and other expenses associated with the deal.

Sease said the indemnity clause will prevent a lengthy court battle between the state, CSX and others if a lawsuit results in a legal judgment or out-of-court agreement.

"It provides for quick settlement of claims that people may have on that system," Sease said.

Supporters stressed that similar agreements would be necessary anywhere commuter rail moves forward.

"The same type of indemnity language would be necessary for [a proposed Tampa Bay-area system]," said Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach. "It would be necessary for Jacksonville, it would be necessary for the expansion of Tri-Rail to a new corridor if that ever happens."

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-09/story/commuter_rail_bill_criticized_as_csx_sweetheart_deal

You can't please everybody.

Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, and other opponents said the total tab for the SunRail line would be $641 million, or $10.5 million a mile - far higher than comparable projects in other parts of the country.

"We're overpaying for that track and we're setting another dangerous precedent," said Dockery, who is running for governor in 2010.

&

Gary Sease, a spokesman for the company, said the state will pay the company $432 million for the 61 miles of line and other expenses associated with the deal.

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Does the cost sound about right to you guys, or is it over priced as Sen. Dockery says?

The price is fine.  If anything, CSX is selling the line too cheap. Visit this link to see the cost estimates for Sunrail:

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

as hasd been pointed out by Lake and others many times, the larger cost figures include n5 overpasses built along the CSX S-line....problem is 1 of those has already been built (SR 20 @ 301) and another is already under construction (SR 26 @ 301).

I wonder how much 61 miles of land through Central Florida would cost if they were trying to piecemeal it together.

Dockery says it's overpriced, but there really isn't anything to back that up. I believe in the past she has compared the costs of other projects that used abandoned or seldom used rights of way. This is a mainline through Central Florida that wasn't even for sale.

Let's not forget that CSX is investing at least 60 of the 150 million they recieve back into the state and local jobs with rail and yard improvements in Jacksonville. If you count the Winter haven yard build(this project has long been connected to Sunrail) out most of the CSX money is invested in the state twice creating Jobs.

I have yet to find any figures that make sense to me! If Dockery's figures are correct that is one thing but the State is saying something totally different so who is correct? If the $461 figure is right then we are over paying and CSX still uses that line! I am glad to see that we are moving in a direction that is positive (as in commuter rail no matter what the name is) but the funding is still up in the air. We are buying tracks with nothing to put on them, no stopping points and nothing to put on the rails so how is this a good deal for the taxpayer?

Quote from: fsu813 on December 09, 2009, 07:50:20 AM
Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, and other opponents said the total tab for the SunRail line would be $641 million, or $10.5 million a mile - far higher than comparable projects in other parts of the country.

"We're overpaying for that track and we're setting another dangerous precedent," said Dockery, who is running for governor in 2010.

&

Gary Sease, a spokesman for the company, said the state will pay the company $432 million for the 61 miles of line and other expenses associated with the deal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the cost sound about right to you guys, or is it over priced as Sen. Dockery says?

Don't bother asking lakelander or any of the others,.......they wanted Sunrail at any cost because of future perks to Jax. It seems reasonable to me that deals that were worked out during the boom years of our Florida economy ought to be renegotiated, because they were likely over-priced.
The situation can't be stated any better than by this commenter:

QuoteDon't you love the idiots who say "but if we don't get rail then people will still drive their cars! So we should go out and pay way too much to provide an alternative ...." Take a moment and take your head out of ...er the sand. Dockery has offered compromise after compromise to get the best deal for the taxpayer and also address future transportation demands. She knows that the days of cheap oil are gone forever. She understands the need for mass transit. That doesn’t make her stupid though. Unlike some people she thinks what when the legislature spends your tax dollars it should be spent wisely and not tossed around like you had more to give.

She sees that there is a win-win solution and has consistently worked toward that even though the SunRail supporters have said “our way or the highway.” In early February she pleaded with the Governor to get involved and get the SunRail people on board renegotiations with CSX. She made suggestions about relocating the source of most of the 48 train loads that are projected to dawdle through Lakeland, destroying their business district. All rejected. She has shown more diplomacy, skill and leadership with a fraction of the resources of the CSX; which had a reported 200 lobbyists working Tally last session.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/12/dockery-sunrail-is-a-boondoggle-and-ill-lay-off-dot-bosses-as-governor.html

But no, lakelander makes the unsubstantiated remark of:

QuoteIf anything, CSX is selling the line too cheap.

Sure,.........that's why CSX would waste paying 200 or so lobbyists!!!

Hey lakelander are you a paid or unpaid lobbyist for CSX?

Many on this board may own CSX stock too,.........so there might be another conflict of interest biasing their statements in defense of CSX.

Quote from: fsu813 on December 09, 2009, 07:50:20 AM
Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, and other opponents said the total tab for the SunRail line would be $641 million, or $10.5 million a mile - far higher than comparable projects in other parts of the country.

"We're overpaying for that track and we're setting another dangerous precedent," said Dockery, who is running for governor in 2010.

&

Gary Sease, a spokesman for the company, said the state will pay the company $432 million for the 61 miles of line and other expenses associated with the deal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the cost sound about right to you guys, or is it over priced as Sen. Dockery says?

Here is the cost breakdown,......where Dockery's numbers include building 5 over passes on the S-line to accomodate the additional CSX freight rail traffic going through Lakeland, that is being rerouted from the Sunrail line.

QuoteCSX will actually get direct payments of $491 million according to page 4 of
http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

CSX will also get indirect payments this way:
FDOT will construct five grade separations on the S-line at $214 million

Additionally there will be $615 million in capital costs to construct 17 station stops, parking lots etc. including $65 for double-tracking to provide for passenger rail operations as 41 miles of freight operations is currently on single track.

Hence the $1.2 billion cost tag excluding operations and maintenance which is estimated at another $1.2 billion over 30 years, for a whopping total of $2.4 billion.

QuoteCSX; which had a reported 200 lobbyists working Tally last session.

Is there a source to verify this?

When you hear there were 200 lobiests it is not quite a lie. The firm has 200 employees.

Quote from: Lunican on December 09, 2009, 11:07:54 AM

QuoteCSX; which had a reported 200 lobbyists working Tally last session.

Is there a source to verify this?

Well let's see, I wasn't the one making the statement about nthe number of lobbyists, but I will direct you to Open Secrets for 2009:

QuoteItemized Lobbying Expenses for CSX Corp Firms Hired Total Reported by Filer Reported Contract Expenses (included in Total Reported by Filer)
CSX Corp $3,881,431 -
CSX Corp - $3,881,431
Duberstein Group - $300,000
Smith-Free Group - $150,000
Compass Consulting Group - $80,000
ML Strategies - $60,000
Law Offices of Kevin G Curtin - $60,000
Hunton & Williams - $50,000
McGlotten & Jarvis - $40,000
Birch, Horton et al - $10,000
Bracewell & Giuliani - $0
  $750,000

Lobbying Expenses Reported by Subsidiary Horizon Lines Firms Hired Total Reported by Filer Reported Contract Expenses (included in Total Reported by Filer)
Capitol Counsel  $150,000
Devierno, John A.  $120,000
Quadripoint Strategies  $12,600

I would assume these lobbyists firms contracted by CSX might employ some 200 lobbyists altogether..........

For those of you who believe the cost is too high, what's your leg to stand on?  In your minds, how much should it cost and what are you using as a comparable?

QuoteCSX has lobbied heavily against efforts by Congress to force rail operators to upgrade their lines.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000148&lname=CSX+Corp

Instead they want the tax payer to upgrade their lines, as evidenced by the Sunrail deal!

How much should the line have cost and what price range would you consider as an acceptable deal to the taxpayers?

Ok, so since a railroad would be much more interested in lobbying DC than a state capital, we can deduce that there were definitely not 200 CSX lobbyists in Tallahassee.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2009, 11:48:09 AM
How much should the line have cost and what price range would you consider as an acceptable deal to the taxpayers?

Well, since I'm no expert myself, but others have been following this drama for almost a decade, I will refer you to what I found:

QuoteThanks to Paula Dockery for doing her homework. What seems to be forgotten in this debate when politicos say "we will get Fed, State, County or municiple $'s to pay for this, they forget that I pay all of those taxes. I support rail, but not at any cost. Renegotiate the deal with CSX! $10 million per mile compared to Boston's $1.5 per mile is corporate gouging. This would be the highest priced cost per mile ever, anywhere. What happened to walkable communities, this seems to fly in the face of that model.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/11/sparks-fly-at-dockerys-winter-park-appearance.html

Quote from: Lunican on December 09, 2009, 12:00:22 PM
Ok, so since a railroad would be much more interested in lobbying DC than a state capital, we can deduce that there were definitely not 200 CSX lobbyists in Tallahassee.

Sure Lunican, CSX lobbyist wouldn't want to lobby in Tallahassee now would they?

It's because we have so few lobbyists interested in lobbying in Tallahassee  ::) :

Quote
Despite Times, Lobbyists Retain Plenty of Work

By Joe Follick
TALLAHASSEE BUREAU


Published: Saturday, March 7, 2009 at 11:24 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, March 7, 2009 at 11:24 p.m.


TALLAHASSEE | As anxious lawmakers fret over every dollar during an unprecedented economic slide, one industry defying the downturn is on display every day with a legion of lobbyists outnumbering legislators, 11-1, in the Capitol.


"Our business is one of those where people sometimes feel like they need more representation in this kind of environment," said John Thrasher, one of the Capitol's top lobbyists and a former House speaker. "There has been some drop-off (in clients), but there have been some commensurate gains." ( READ REVOLVING DOOR)

As of Friday, there were 1,889 lobbyists registered to make their case to 160 lawmakers in the House and Senate. That number fluctuates and may pick up toward the end of this year's 60-day session on May 1. In 2003, when the state was flush with cash, there were 2,029 registered legislative lobbyists.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090307/NEWS/903075032?Title=Despite-Times-Lobbyists-Retain-Plenty-of-Work

And you don't think CSX would deploy 200 of them for this once in a life-time deal in Florida?

Paula Dockery is no expert either ;)

CSX cost breakdown

Quote$198 million - improvements to S-Line to mitigate impact on surrounding communities associated with CSX train rerouting.

$52 million - for increased freight capacity improvements throughout the state

$9 million - for road improvements to access new CSX Integrated Logistics Center (new Winter Haven railyard)

$150 million - to purchase 61.5 miles of track in Central Florida, a corridor valued at $420 million

$23 million -  to relocate Taft Yard (in Orlando) to a new yard CSX will construct in Winter Haven.

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

The 61.5 mile CSX ROW acquisition is $150 million.  That's roughly $2.4 million per mile.  

Can you tell us a little more about the Boston line?  For example....

1. Is it main line that was not for sale?

2. Does it involve the company relocating significant train traffic around a metro with 2 million people?

3. Does it involve having to move a railyard because Boston wants freight traffic shifted?

If we can access the answers to this information, we can figure out if the Boston example is an apples to apples comparison.  My guess is they aren't.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2009, 12:31:32 PM


CSX cost breakdown

Quote$198 million - improvements to S-Line to mitigate impact on surrounding communities associated with CSX train rerouting.

$52 million - for increased freight capacity improvements throughout the state

$9 million - for road improvements to access new CSX Integrated Logistics Center (new Winter Haven railyard)

$150 million - to purchase 61.5 miles of track in Central Florida, a corridor valued at $420 million

$23 million -  to relocate Taft Yard (in Orlando) to a new yard CSX will construct in Winter Haven.

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

The 61.5 mile CSX ROW acquisition is $150 million.  That's roughly $2.4 million per mile.  

Can you tell us a little more about the Boston line?  For example....

1. Is it main line that was not for sale?

2. Does it involve the company relocating significant train traffic around a metro with 2 million people?

3. Does it involve having to move a railyard because Boston wants freight traffic shifted?

If we can access the answers to this information, we can figure out if the Boston example is an apples to apples comparison.  My guess is they aren't.

Funny, how you can't see that $491 million went into the hands of CSX for the commuter rail deal.

QuoteCSX will actually get direct payments of $491 million according to page 4 of

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

Regardless of how CSX chooses to spend it. That's almost $10 per mile as Dockery states.

But using your accounting trick to reduce it by what CSX claims they are spending the money on, still leaves a far higher cost per mile than Boston.

BTW, I thought you were one of the people who claimed that opponents compared our purchase to CSX lines in rural areas,...........well apparently that was another lie by those who wanted Sunrail any cost. Boston is hardly considered rural, and probably more prime real estate than Orlando.

Sprawl Rail it is, and I'm not the only one who thinks so:

QuoteWhat happened to walkable communities, this seems to fly in the face of that model.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/11/sparks-fly-at-dockerys-winter-park-appearance.html

Still amazes me that we would want to support anything that's projected to only take 3500 riders off I-4 of the 270,000 daily riders on I-4,........go figure!!!

That's politics I guess.

QuoteFunny, how you can't see that $491 million went into the hands of CSX for the commuter rail deal.

I can read it just fine.  By reading it fine I can also follow the money trail and see what certain things cost and why they are needed.  Since you are bringing the Boston line to the table as a comparison, I'm asking you to provide the money trail for it so we can see if they are apples to apples comparisons.

QuoteRegardless of how CSX chooses to spend it. That's almost $10 per mile as Dockery states.

But using your accounting trick to reduce it by what CSX claims they are spending the money on, still leaves a far higher cost per mile than Boston.

No accounting tricks, just pointing out where money is being spent and why.  You know...cause and effect.  Are you are under the assumption that CSX will pocket cash and not upgrade the S-Line, relocate the Taft Yard, shift existing freight traffic or build the Winter Haven ILC.  I don't see how that type of logic is realistic but if that's the case, I can see where you are coming from.  Again, I'd like to see some Boston info.

QuoteBTW, I thought you were one of the people who claimed that opponents compared our purchase to CSX lines in rural areas,...........well apparently that was another lie by those who wanted Sunrail any cost. Boston is hardly considered rural, and probably more prime real estate than Orlando.

I didn't say anything about rural areas.  I stated that compared lines most likely have different physical factors that lead to different prices.  I keep asking for more info on the Boston line you keep talking about but you won't provide it.  That info will confirm which one of us is right or wrong.

QuoteSprawl Rail it is, and I'm not the only one who thinks so:

How is does Sunrail promote sprawl?  I see how it can encourage TOD in Central Florida community's downtown areas but I fail to see how it promotes the development of low density sprawl.

QuoteStill amazes me that we would want to support anything that's projected to only take 3500 riders off I-4 of the 270,000 daily riders on I-4,........go figure!!!

I'm still amazed people support our HSR plan in its current configuration.  Giving CSX money for a line they own and helping them mitigate the negative impact of the sale to their business is wrong but dropping $2.5 billion on a line that doesn't serve most of I-4 commuters or even go into Orlando is good use of tax money. Go figure!

QuoteU.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, likened the passage of SunRail to a kidney stone that had recently plagued him.

"They were equally painful," joked Mica, who has been pursuing a mass-transit plan in Central Florida since taking office in 1992 but had been stymied until Tuesday. "There is no question this is a milestone in the state's history."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-sunrail-senate-20091208,0,3304424.story

NOW you've done it! :D

I love that we are arguing the pros and cons of the rail projects the state is moving forward with. So much better than cursing all the things that do not move forward.

You got that right!

Earlier in this thread, Faye suggested that some of our resident experts may infact be lobbyists, employees and/or CSX stockholders.

I had never considered such, as I am fairly naive. It would be interesting to know any of this information, although clearly no one is obligated to disclose it.

Kudos to Faye however, for raising the possibility. Anyone?

I'm not.

Neither am I............aircraft or cell systems towers and the like .....that I will take credit for.......along with tugboat operations and barges but CSX and its op's no sir!

Quote from: FayeforCure on December 09, 2009, 11:41:46 AM
I would assume these lobbyists firms contracted by CSX might employ some 200 lobbyists altogether.

Faye....your argument is absurd...

I have done work for small municipalities (such as Baker County and Temple Terrace) and I work for a firm with thousands of employees....

Does that mean those communities had thousands of people working on their plans?

Isn't her avatar sort of ironic though?

Sorry guys but Faye's comments are so ignorant as to hardly warrant a response from a serious student of transportation. Had she any idea of what she is talking about, perhaps she could get elected on original thought and not the "Wacko news article of the day," she so diligently cuts and pastes. Since she has been posting, Mica's approval rating on MJ has skyrocketed!

TUFSU is a planner and consultant in the field of transportation. Lakelander is an urban planner, and myself a railroad planner. Unless I'm mistaken, none of us have or probably have ever had a contract or worked for CSX, FEC, NS, or any one of the 70 or so railroads with a presence in Jacksonville. We don't rely on "experts in the field," or senators to tell us what to think, we ARE the experts in our own fields. Our portfolio of projects and successes is long, and ranges from having written books on the subjects, planning expressways, mass transit projects and even hacking a railroad through the Andes.

If you want to play the "ALL OF THE MONEY GOING TO CSX IS FOR SUNRAIL," card then that's fine with me, really. But then let's be fair, it's NOT going to be 61 miles we are buying, more like 150 miles. Since you want this all inclusive, you'll have to understand that the price is also for the 30+ miles in Winter Haven, and the 20-40 miles in Nassau County and JaxPort, and oh, almost forgot another 30 or so miles of double tracking on the Sunrail line itself. Politicians and our modern society are so accustomed to building highways, and then paying for an agency to buy and operate buses, and then build the garages and buy the buses... So far - so good... Railroad projects, LRT, Streetcar and such are self contained and the price is complete, track, stations, garages (maintenance facilities) and even equipment. If the tables were turned and CSX belonged to the public and had to build overpasses over all of the highways, guess what? Those highways would not include the price of any of the railroad work on those overpasses. As it is, Sunrail has included all of the pricing for highways (even those planned or under construction before Sunrail), it's all in the price.

Another dumb remark was CSX wants the public to upgrade it's track and won't do so itself. That is funny Faye, when is the last time you saw a crew from Delta patching 23L out at JIA? Those boys working on the Nocatee flyover might all be wearing Greyhound or Overnite Trucking shirts right? NOT. But you better believe every spike over on the CSX is owned and driven into the ties by CSX and it's employees. When the USDOT first laid out a plan for high(er) speed corridors with multiple tracks, CSX was asked by the government if they would bid on it. They did, and are planning triple track from Washington to Richmond, and double track from Richmond to Jacksonville and Lakeland, with long segments of triple track. They have even looked into electrification of the entire mainline.  Trying to paint the railroad as a welfare case might have been somewhat true in 1969, but today it's not even close.

Really Faye, you need to take your medication and go back to bed, it looks like this 4 years belong to Obama, Mica and Crist, and for you the next 4 aren't looking too hot either.

OCKLAWAHA

Nice to know that Tallahassee is finally getting serious but I gotta ask.............Do we have a written agreement with CSX yet? I know about the Bill from the State but no one as made any statements regarding an agreement that has been signed sealed and delivered!

no...FDOT has a given amount of time to finalize the details w/ CSX based on direction from the Legislature....once the agreement is in place, than FDOT gets the rail and CSX gets the cash.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 10, 2009, 12:06:29 AM
Sorry guys but Faye's comments are so ignorant as to hardly warrant a response from a serious student of transportation. Had she any idea of what she is talking about, perhaps she could get elected on original thought and not the "Wacko news article of the day," she so diligently cuts and pastes. Since she has been posting, Mica's approval rating on MJ has skyrocketed!

TUFSU is a planner and consultant in the field of transportation. Lakelander is an urban planner, and myself a railroad planner. Unless I'm mistaken, none of us have or probably have ever had a contract or worked for CSX, FEC, NS, or any one of the 70 or so railroads with a presence in Jacksonville. We don't rely on "experts in the field," or senators to tell us what to think, we ARE the experts in our own fields. Our portfolio of projects and successes is long, and ranges from having written books on the subjects, planning expressways, mass transit projects and even hacking a railroad through the Andes.


Really Faye, you need to take your medication and go back to bed, it looks like this 4 years belong to Obama, Mica and Crist, and for you the next 4 aren't looking too hot either.

Man, are you supposed to be a moderator? I can hardly believe the persistent hateful personal attacks you make as a moderator!

I don't need to tell you that experts routinely disagree with one another, so the fact that tufsu, lakelander and yourself are experts in your field does not necessarily make you the most cost-effective planners, or be able to determine whether a deal with a monopoly corporation is overpriced, especially when your overarching desire is to get this rail line moving AT ANY COST.

And don't worry about Mica,........he's in there for life. As I said there isn't any point in holding elections at all, because 95% of incumbents are in for life. Only scandals, death, or retirement ever bring change. Oh, and of course term limits.

Luckily I have never used any medication, so maybe you are projecting? Some kind of discussion board this is! ::)

Come on guys, give Faye a break.  I don't agree with her Sunrail argument, but if that's her opinion, its her opinion.

Quote from: stephendare on December 10, 2009, 10:38:11 AM
That is the exact question, lake.

If it is her opinion.

Obviously I have opinions on a wide range of issues, as my posts have indicated. I have been an issue advocate for stem cell research and healthcare for far longer than this forum has existed, and certainly wouldn't need this forum to advocate my positions.

I happen to be passionate about rail simply because I actually lived in a rail-based society unlike many of you.

That my opinion on rail may not match your opinion is your problem, not mine. It would seem to me that you want the transportation forum to be an echo chamber, with soft-ball questions regarding rail, that can be re-assuredly answered by resident "experts."

If a very occasional vote ( cast "in our name") analysis is uncomfortable for you,...........simply just read the salamander topic and other interesting topics started by me that help expand our collective knowledge on a wide range of issues. That's what a discussion forum is for.

Thus the bulk of my posts solely express my interest in these wide range of issues that include: school lunches, environment, new technology, bio-med industry, economy, jobs, and may other topics.

Trying to "controle" the discussion by limiting dissenting opinions, that are presented in a civil manner is counter-productive to a healthy discussion. As it is, the "Republican" opinion is over-represented on this board.

Besides having a woman's perspective keeps things interesting too  ;D

Thanks lakelander, for inserting a measure of civility into the conversation as one of the moderators.

QuoteAs it is, the "Republican" opinion is over-represented on this board.

:D :o ::) :D

Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 10, 2009, 11:09:15 AM

QuoteAs it is, the "Republican" opinion is over-represented on this board.

:D :o ::) :D

I though republicans were in the minority here. :-\

Faye, as a public figure you are not immune to critical review as most of the other members of our forum. Your opinion "could be," our elect, represented opinion, and thus as far as I'm concerned, is open to my bombastic attacks.  Every observation I have is based on the lack of any original ideas in your 117+ posts, the only time we actually hear from Faye, is when we attack and you respond. Politicians are supposed to be elected leaders, not paste-up artist's.

QuoteTrying to "controle" the discussion by limiting dissenting opinions, that are presented in a civil manner is counter-productive to a healthy discussion. As it is, the "Republican" opinion is over-represented on this board.

While we have never asked, I believe there is only one Republican in the MJ Corporation, so I can't imagine where this imagined "Republican" opinion is coming from. Would "a civil manner," include a masterful spin on the language that would make a professional propagantist proud? 

QuoteI happen to be passionate about rail simply because I actually lived in a rail-based society unlike many of you.

Another day, another assumption? You don't know what type of society "Most of us," grew up or have lived in. Fact is Jacksonville has the largest collection of well traveled and international-Americans in the state. We call it The US Navy.

QuoteIt would seem to me that you want the transportation forum to be an echo chamber, with soft-ball questions regarding rail, that can be re-assuredly answered by resident "experts."

Really Faye? I don't hear an echo, except from the one who continues to post the opinions of other people with the regularity of a parrot. "Experts," such as newspaper reporters, and random State Senators. We are the ones challenging the entire establishment of Florida, to put up or shut up on their ridiculous High Speed Rail plan, I wonder how that sounds like an echo? Lake may not notice your use of the language to spin every argument, I note that Lake, TUFSU and I are "experts" while the newspaper boys you quote are experts. LOL.

Thus the bulk of your posts might solely express your interest in a wide range of issues that include: school lunches, environment, new technology, bio-med industry, economy, jobs, and may other topics. I wonder how many of those posts started or ended with your boring character assassinations of John Mica.

Stacking our boards with 24,041 posts on every conceivable subject where you can spread Mica hate is an improper use of MJ. Obviously, if you run for his seat again, anyone searching anything about Mica, is bound to land on your pasted remarks. Goal accomplished?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on December 10, 2009, 12:17:32 PM

Untainted with cynical googlebombing.

You over-rate the metrojacksonville forum. I've had a far better google presence from my mainstream media articles. Just google my name. Presenting a different point of view that is sourced is beneficial to the meltingpot nature of America.

Take it or leave it. I'm a private citizen who happened to do more than the average citizen in trying to affect the change that we need,..........I've sacrificed my time, my life and that of my children to do so.

I will continue to promote ideas as a private citizen just like all of you do. I'm an individualist who doesn't much appreciate groupthink. Basta.

Ok let's stay on topic.

From what I've gathered, Faye is against Sunrail because she believes that:

1. It is too expensive
2. CSX will receive too much money
3. The ridership projection is too low
4. It will promote sprawl.

Did I miss anything?

Well it would be nice if the public finally got something instead of Bill for "services rendered"! I am still not completly comfortable with the area that is being discussed for implementation but will go with the flow! CSX has not signed off yet and until they do all we have is talk! Lip service comes cheap..........show me the agreement honey! Thanks for the update tufsu1...........I am trying to keep track on this!

Quote from: Lunican on December 10, 2009, 01:07:10 PM
Ok let's stay on topic.

From what I've gathered, Faye is against Sunrail because she believes that:

1. It is too expensive
2. CSX will receive too much money
3. The ridership projection is too low
4. It will promote sprawl.

Did I miss anything?

Lunican, thanks so much for the condensed listing. I agree.

Nevertheless I celebrate the fact that Florida has finally embarked in a dedicated way on putting state monies into Rail. This was long overdue. Tha fact that we are over-paying on this deal similar to what happens in many no-bid contracts the government engages in, is something that bothers me a great deal during this economic downturn. We've had the luxury of "ignoring" it in the past, but not so anymore.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 10, 2009, 12:18:43 PM
Stacking our boards with 24,041 posts on every conceivable subject where you can spread Mica hate is an improper use of MJ. Obviously, if you run for his seat again, anyone searching anything about Mica, is bound to land on your pasted remarks. Goal accomplished?

Out of curiosity I did a quick search for Fayeforcure and Mica using the metrojacksonville search function,............and low and behold I found an astronomical 16 results out of a total of 996 posts made by Fayeforcure ( NOT 24,041 posts as Ock erroneously indicates),.......

Well, I just love it when big guys over-estimate my impact!!!!! ;D

And, Wow, I guess I was far more effective than I even imagined!!! 8)

Such an uproar by two moderators about 1.5% of my posts is obviously rediculous!!!

Faye - Thanks for not using every picture you have on your hard drive to convey the point.

Quote from: mtraininjax on December 11, 2009, 02:07:50 PM
Faye - Thanks for not using every picture you have on your hard drive to convey the point.

Oh, no, I don't use pictures like the big guy does  ;)

If HSR passes also will it share the convention center stop with Sunrail?

No.

OCK'S Observations of the new CSX Sweetheart Deal...



(http://www.onepennysheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/combinations.gif)
"When one of the MJ boys became the new president of CSX, they immediately restored A railroad tradition!"





(http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df2/df02262007a.jpg)
OCK, tried in vain to prevent them from allowing Faye to run the train.





(http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1239195,00.jpg)
They didn't realize until they plugged it in, that Europe, and the USA, use different electrical systems.





(http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/wrecks/accident052000.jpg)
Florida had no idea that the new European train would come with it's own technicians. "Le Radiator  Messieurs, check Le Radiator! Oui! Oui! Franswah, it's obviously got no air in the tires!"





(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/train-6.jpg)
"Oy Vey! Some lady in car 3 needs a midol."





(http://rlv.zcache.com/train_wreck_poster-p228442161918562343qzz0_400.jpg)
Bob and Ennis knew all along that a nuclear powered train was a bad idea.





(http://www.france24.com/en/files/imagecache/aef_ct_article_image/article/image/inde_m.JPG)
"Under the new Transportation Incompetency Act, Mayor Peyton and JTA officials were immediately deported."





(http://www.essex-pix.com/custom/FmH%20TrainHitsCar12Web.jpg)
Mtrain swore he would never again look at a train photo, after his plan for the perfect railroad photograph went awry.





(http://www.fullhalloween.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/midnight_meat_train_2008_photo2.jpg)
"Of course FDOT immediately declared the new train a huge success..."





(http://www.ntrc.gov.pk/achiev6.jpg)
Once again Florida allowed CUTR to influence the final decision on the train.




Just had to know if any of you can still laugh?
YIPPIE! Smile Y'all!



OCKLAWAHA

Ock, your extremist and grandiose thinking is well captured by the pictures and the subtexts  ;D

One thing was missing though,.............where was "Ock to the rescue"?

Any superman could have effectively prevented those disasters from happening, right?  :o

Was it "Faye in your way"?  ;)

Time to bury the hatchet. I'm over it.

Looking foward to my SAFE train rides in Europe soon.

Be safe Ms Faye..............post when you get back!

Quote from: FayeforCure on December 12, 2009, 09:52:36 AM
Ock, your extremist and grandiose thinking is well captured by the pictures and the subtexts  ;D

One thing was missing though,.............where was "Ock to the rescue"?

Any superman could have effectively prevented those disasters from happening, right?  :o

Was it "Faye in your way"?  ;)

Time to bury the hatchet. I'm over it.

Looking foward to my SAFE train rides in Europe soon.

Now THAT was funny Faye, ROFLMAO! Always been on the extreme, as in "Steal This Book." Guess the captions didn't explain all of this happened because they wouldn't listen to Lakelander, TUFSU1, (Another-5 Anom.) and Myself! HA! HA!  Extra funny to me because my personal dream life is usually very funny and in one dream, where I woke myself up laughing, I WAS a superhero... Get this... CAPTAIN CANOE! Must have been the Acid.

Have fun in Europa, if you get a chance check out the rails in Spain, only in a youthful lifetime have they gone from primitive railroads dating to the Spanish Civil War, to a modern Super System. Today, they are building the cars for Amtrak's Cascade Trains. Their super conventional trains are called TALGO. Say hello to Bosque for me. If your into New Age - Classical - Rock - Opera fusion, check out a group called B-TRIBE in Barcelona.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 12, 2009, 11:44:15 AM

Quote from: FayeforCure on December 12, 2009, 09:52:36 AM
Ock, your extremist and grandiose thinking is well captured by the pictures and the subtexts  ;D

One thing was missing though,.............where was "Ock to the rescue"?

Any superman could have effectively prevented those disasters from happening, right?  :o

Was it "Faye in your way"?  ;)

Time to bury the hatchet. I'm over it.

Looking foward to my SAFE train rides in Europe soon.

HA! HA!  Extra funny to me because my personal dream life is usually very funny and in one dream, where I woke myself up laughing, I WAS a superhero... Get this... CAPTAIN CANOE! Must have been the Acid.

Have fun in Europa, if you get a chance check out the rails in Spain, only in a youthful lifetime have they gone from primitive railroads dating to the Spanish Civil War, to a modern Super System. Today, they are building the cars for Amtrak's Cascade Trains. Their super conventional trains are called TALGO. Say hello to Bosque for me. If your into New Age - Classical - Rock - Opera fusion, check out a group called B-TRIBE in Barcelona.

Hey Ock, I hope that was the Acid of yesteryears. Wouldn't like to think you're still doing that stuff  ;)

Thanks for the music tip, definitely like that music too. It's amazing how music unites us all. I will be going to a U2 concert in Miami in June, so eat your heart out!

Not that I'd probably give a flip, but yeah, all 23,503 acid trips were in long ago FRESBERG (Fresno) Wart of the World, and under the arm pit of the Great Frog!  A commune in a place called Dunlap, (near Yosemite) hiking the old Sugar Pine RR and tending a garden along Coarse Gold Creek. The creek BTW, where we would pan a tiny bit of color to buy the stuff we didn't grow... and OH BOY did we ever grow some shit!

Today, I wouldn't need it anyway, the VA sadly keeps me on a continuous "high", or I'm hurting too much. Anyway, to be honest, I always enjoyed it, so now that it's legal, it's taken on a life of it's own. If any of you ever get in that dreamy state of mind try these tracks:

http://www.last.fm/music/B-Tribe/_/She+Moves+Through+The+Fair+%28HDCD%29

http://www.last.fm/music/B-Tribe/_/Angelic+Voices+%28Rebirth+remix%29

http://www.last.fm/music/Bruce+BecVar/_/Spinning+the+Light+Fantastic

http://www.last.fm/music/Oregon/_/Sail?ac=oregon%20sail

http://www.last.fm/music/Weather+Report/_/Palladium

OCKLAWAHA
"When he's 10 feet tall..."

Anyone hear about the monorails getting stuck in Disney? 3 of 4 were stuck, they were able to get 2 of the 3 moving to stations, but one could not and they needed to get the fire department to hoist a ladder to the train.

Of course Disney says they have "fixed" the problems, and life is "back to normal".