Metro Jacksonville

Hogans Creek Park Master Plan

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/716772873_A4CK5-M.jpg)

After years of neglect, the City of Jacksonville, Project for Public Spaces, and HDR, Inc. are teaming up to develop a master plan that brings life and activity back to Jacksonville's original "Central Park." Today, Metro Jacksonville shares a few of the concepts being considered by park planners.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-hogans-creek-park-master-plan

Interesting.  This will be very costly, beyond the enviro remediation - relocating the Health Department, and an open, apparently viable business (Warren Motors) on State Street.  If Federal funds are proposed, removing the historic Klutho features may be a big stumbling block.  Have these features (the balustrades, for example) been recognized "historic" by any agency, like State Historic Preservation or the City? 

#1 - The money is there through various resources.

#2 - I hope they've been deemed offically 'historic'. If not, that was a big oversight.

#3 -New Kluthlo balustrades are planned, if i'm not mistaken. The old ones would be disregarded for continuity and cost reasons. If there is any way to at least consolidate and rehab the ones that aren't in that bad of shape into one strech, that would be great. I conceed that rehabbing every single balustrade regardless of condition is probably out of the question.

Any idea of what happens with the health department?  If forced to relocate, do they plan to leave Springfield or go to a site that can help continue the commercial revitalization of the area?

Looking at the Confederate Park rendering, it looks like the front half of Klutho's Claude Nolan building (Main & Orange) has been chopped off to make room for a right turn lane and island on Orange.  The small Klutho warehouse behind it is also gone.  If those two go, they should probably go ahead and tear down the middle section as well.  Also, is the city assuming that they will take over the Park View Inn site? 

"micro grocery"?

A new convenience store in Springfield --

Sounds a bit like we are knocking down our historic heritage in favor of World Golf Village.

I don't love Springfield for the soccer fields (there are enough of them in the city) I love Springfield for the historic components. 

"potential micro grocery" actually.........basically the guy was just trying to think of what may be a useful, popular use there.

It could have said "Ice cream stand", etc.

I do think some of the designs are bit too modern as well. Probably not that hard to address.

Again, this was just the first rough draft.

What specifically takes away from the history/heritage and makes it feel too "wordl Golf Village" in your eyes?

The master plan looks highly conceptual, but then, this article assumes I know a lot about this project already. I wish I had a little more background on the project's objectives.

Here is some background info:

QuotePush to revive Hogans Creek gathers steam

Jacksonville Business Journal - by Christian Conte

Once a scenic haven on the edge of Downtown Jacksonville, the parks that straddle Hogans Creek are now crumbling and polluted.

But a grass-roots group backed by the city and private companies says the area has the potential to be the figurative and literal bridge between the city’s core and surrounding neighborhoods and a catalyst for economic development.

That’s why the group, led by City Councilman Johnny Gaffney, Springfield residents and representatives from various corporate entities in and around Downtown, have come together to help create a master plan for the 27-acre neglected city parks that stretch from Liberty Street to Eighth Street.

Jacksonville-based HDR Engineering Inc. is leading the $100,000 project paid for with city funds to determine the best uses for the parks, which date back to the late 1800s.

The project has included several community and stakeholder meetings with HDR and its partner on part of the project, Project for Public Spaces, a nonprofit group in New York City that provides consultation services for what it calls placemaking for communities.

During a Sept. 15 stakeholders’ meeting, Project for Public Spaces Vice President Phil Myrick said by designing destinations, uses and activities for the area, you could create an atmosphere that people want to return to after work and on weekends.

“You can start to turn your city around with a project like this,” Myrick said.

Other cities that have created spaces to draw residents back into the downtown area have been successful, Myrick said.

Discovery Green, a 12-acre park in Downtown Houston that opened in spring 2008 includes a lake, interactive water features, a playground, an amphitheater, dog runs, green lawns and several restaurants. That park cost $41 million to build, but raised $80 million in private funding and has created $850 million in new construction investment, Myrick said.

The Hogans Creek park system,­ which includes John N. McPherson Park, Klutho Park, Armory Park and Confederate Park, has a long history in Jacksonville. The Springfield Development Co. deeded a portion of what would become the park system to the city in 1898.

The city hosted a U.S. Confederate Army reunion at what was later named Confederate Park in 1914 and architect Henry Klutho designed a beautification of the park system in 1929 that included bulkheads, bridges, sidewalks, decorative balustrades and light fixtures.

Over the years, however, Klutho’s designs were damaged or removed and the park system fell into disrepair.

Ray Beeson, an investment analyst for Regency Centers Corp. (NYSE: REG), was among the 40 to 50 attendees at the meeting. Others included representatives from companies such as Winn-Dixie Stores Inc. (Nasdaq: WINN); Regions Financial Corp. (NYSE: RF); Wachovia, a Wells Fargo company; and Foley & Lardner LLP.

“When the numbers make sense, any developer would look at being a part of this area,” Beeson said. “But right now, you have to take on a huge risk coming here.”

There have been other attempts to revitalize the Hogans Creek system, said Jennifer Holbrook, a board member for the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council. What makes this project different is its holistic approach that includes determining the uses and resolving environmental and infrastructure problems.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/09/21/story5.html

I am not in favor of returning the creek to its "natural state".  This is now an urban waterway.  Refurbish and renew Kluthos design.  Dredge and clean the canal.  Institute flood and flow measures.  A return to a "natural state" will promote a marshy, muddy, inaccessible creekside promoting mosquito's and stagnant polluted water.

Here is a photo tour of the park system's current condition.

The Ruins of Jacksonville: Hogans Creek
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568925192_HHcGN-M.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jun-the-ruins-of-jacksonville-hogans-creek

I want to see the whole park system restored and made as interactive as possible. We should strive to maintain all historical elements as well. Imagine being able to ride a gondola from Shands all the way to near the stadium, how cool would that be?

While many details are missing from this initial plan, I do agree that to return the creek to something more "natural" seems like a mistake.  Perhaps we should not have done what we and other cities did years ago to the various creeks and waterways that run through our cities, but we did it and to go back now seems to require eliminating the cities around the waterways themselves.  Anything less seems destined to end up with failure as it will only be a half measure at best.  The creek must be addressed for what it is now, a canal through an urban area.  

Kultho had a good plan that seemed to work.  Perhaps it needs revisited to some degree as we have most likely added more runoff and such as the development of the area went forward, but his plan was sound and it is unique and historic.  Rebuilding the park in that image seems like the best solution.

Also, I do believe the Health Department was built on land donated to the city for the exclusive purpose of being permanently a park.  They city found a way around it and built those buildings.  Loosing them would not be a bad idea.  By the way, the city wanted to give up more of the park not that long ago for the Walgreens to be built there.  Obviously, HSCC fought that and we still have a Walgreens.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 20, 2009, 07:38:13 AM
"potential micro grocery" actually.........basically the guy was just trying to think of what may be a useful, popular use there.

It could have said "Ice cream stand", etc.

I do think some of the designs are bit too modern as well. Probably not that hard to address.

Again, this was just the first rough draft.

What specifically takes away from the history/heritage and makes it feel too "wordl Golf Village" in your eyes?

I'm all for convenience stores.  I was being sarcastic. (attempting to at least)

Getting rid of the balustrades "takes away from the history."  Getting rid of the canal "takes away from the history."  There are many natural creeks and streams in Jacksonville, not many Klutho canals.

QuoteAlso, I do believe the Health Department was built on land donated to the city for the exclusive purpose of being permanently a park.  They city found a way around it and built those buildings.  Loosing them would not be a bad idea.

Who would consume the costs of relocation? Will they pick up and relocate for free?  

If they do, do we really want them out of the neighborhood or is there another spot in the area where they can contribute to the urban landscape more positively?

I agree with "SheClown;" why not try and preserve as much of the historic components and aspects of the Park and Springfield by renovationg, upgrading, and building upon what's already there insteady of demolishing, tearing down and rebuilding.  We've lost too much of our heritage, in so many different ways in the past half a century. But if they do decide to tear down and rebuild, they'd better do it smartly, effectively, and in a way that will lure citizens to it and not let it be another wasteful something that we built and no one used.

Heights Unknown

Natural State???


(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568921622_4x6py-M.jpg)

Or this.....

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454331401_MEhPr-M-1.jpg)

IMO, any viable plan for this project needs to;

A: Incorporate funds for a simple lock/dam located at the head of the creek to control the creek's tidal flux.

Despite what FSU says, the mouth of the creek really isn't that big and this wouldn't cost that much. The original device was really just a wooden spillway that cost next-to-nothing to begin with. Pictures have been posted of it here before. It doesn't have to be elaborate, and in fact the original was inexpensive and far from elaborate, and it worked great for a long time. We're not talking about the Hoover Dam here.

B: Repair the ORIGINAL balustrades and Klutho items, rather than just tearing them down and replacing them with look-a-like's. Again, I can't even believe we're actually discussing this.

Zoo mentioned earleir that a lock/pump system is not out of the question afterall.....

I can believe we are actually discussing it. That's the whole purpose of going through drafts: to discuss and get input.

Doesn't part of the flooding problem also have to do with the increased drainage area?
That is, the total area of impervious surface contributing to the volume of storm water draining
into the creek is greater now than when the park was built.
 

I am not wild about tearing down a portion of the structures at the rear (eastern) Claude Nolan Cadillac dealership.

It doesn't really matter what they do with the canal section, because if the St. Johns is high and the water has nowhere to go, you're screwed either way.

Just like the pic of Fay's flooding Lake posted, there is no way getting around that.

Billy & Rednavy,

Yes. That was the point of widening the creek, and having small resevoir areas along the way, and leaving some of the edges along side the creek as 'natural habibat' for flooding.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 20, 2009, 09:39:16 AM
Zoo mentioned earleir that a lock/pump system is not of the question afterall.....

I can believe we are actually discussing it. That's the whole purpose of going through drafts: to discuss and get input.

Its also one of the background reasons for the creation of the Metro Jacksonville website and the forum.  Many of the items and input provided in a thread like this can be used as valuable background information for those designing and shaping projects like the Hogans Creek Master Plan.

What I meant by that comment was that I couldn't believe anyone would think about tearing down these historic Klutho structures in the first place. I think it's nuts that anyone would even suggest that as part of a proposal.

QuoteIn addition, it also calls for the complete demolition of Klutho's historic balustrades. In their place, the creek will be allowed to expand and flow more freely.

The nicest thing would be to see the historic features preserved, but understand that Klutho was a designer not a builder. He didn't build the balustrades, he designed them, if we went with new ones it could still be HIS design.

Hogan's Creek will still flood until the City-State fixes the tiny box culvert under the Arlington Expressway, right under where State, Union, and the Expressway meet.

The bridges all along need to be raised about 6 feet, this WOULD allow canoe, kayak or gondola boats to pass. As it is now, unless your a micro-person on a paddle board, you are not getting under them.

That micro-grocery is a great idea IF there is high traffic otherwise it will flop. The same concept is used with fantastic results in Medellin, Colombia, where modern parks and plazas have purpose build micro-shops. Dunkin Donuts is one of the most popular and has a lot of experience in the micro-trade. Understand that Medellin also has full size versions of all of these places so this is not some 3Rd world freak.

OCKLAWAHA

So Frank Lloyd Wright or I.M Pei were out there swinging their own hammers? LOL

Come on, it doesn't happen. The original balustrades are no less Klutho's work because the one man didn't physically pour them himself. That's normal, and par for the course. They are historic structures, created by our only real local architect of note. They should be saved!

I used to sit at the University Medical Cetner Construciton site (1995) and  watch the Health Department parking lot flood up to windshields during significant thunderstorms.  I'm sure those employees would like to move away from the creek.

Quote from: Overstreet on November 20, 2009, 10:54:29 AM
I used to sit at the University Medical Cetner Construciton site (1995) and  watch the Health Department parking lot flood up to windshields during significant thunderstorms.  I'm sure those employees would like to move away from the creek.

Another reason I can't believe the plan doesn't incorporate the re-construction of a flood-control device. It's not like COJ is blissfully unaware of this problem, since their own properties are affected by it.

Thank you for the link, I think I understand the project much better.

Careful with this one!

The architect Klutho (architects have in the past often tried their hands at shaping leisure landscape) is closely associated with the development history of Jacksonville, and measures should be taken to preserve his work.
Jacksonville seems to be doing a fine job of this to date.  

For this park, any proposed plan should focus on measures that enhance the character defining features of the original plans. Prairie school design is characterized by open plans, horizontal lines, and the use of indigenous materials.  A style which I should think would lend itself well to any park setting.  


So my question is, are the current designers using an approach that honors Klutho's design philosophy?
 

IMO, flood control needs to be the primary objective for the Creek but the mindset that it should look good and be a part of a larger master plan.  If the park is always flooded when it rains, all the decorations in the world are still void of any appreciation and enjoyment.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 20, 2009, 10:46:49 AM
So Frank Lloyd Wright or I.M Pei were out there swinging their own hammers? LOL

Come on, it doesn't happen. The original balustrades are no less Klutho's work because the one man didn't physically pour them himself. That's normal, and par for the course. They are historic structures, created by our only real local architect of note. They should be saved!

Of course we SHOULD save all of the original stuff we can, but considering re-bar, I'm not sure how easy that is going to come up. Making a pattern off of the originals is the next best thing for casting concrete, obviously we don't have enough intact segments to complete the project.

Remember guys, sarcasm is my "spiritual gift..."

You could dredge that creek out and create a cruise ship canal out of it, but unless they rebuild the expressway box culvert, and hopefully give us a 6' clearance, it still won't drain.

I'm also concerned about the "MODERN" mix with the original, without care they could destroy the tranquility of the place.

OCKLAWAHA

Here's what I don't see. Any connectivity. It appears that the city is making plans to treat each section of park as separate entities when if it is truly a central park system them it should be treated as such. There should be included within the plans a nice mulituse trail the runs the length of the parks along Hogans Creek.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2009, 12:15:36 PM
Of course we SHOULD save all of the original stuff we can, but considering re-bar, I'm not sure how easy that is going to come up.

Like anything else, I guess it probably comes down to $$$$.

But when you're dealing with historic structures, I think this should be less of a concern for COJ than when they're just re-paving a street or installing a sidewalk or whatnot. We can't just keep knocking down everything historic because it's cheaper and easier. That can only go on so long, before you've lost what was special in the first place.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2009, 12:15:36 PM
I'm also concerned about the "MODERN" mix with the original, without care they could destroy the tranquility of the place.

+1

I thought the Hogans Creek Greenway was already funded?  It doesn't appear to be shown in the drawings.  Has it been eliminated?

Quote from: NthDegree on November 20, 2009, 11:29:01 AM
So my question is, are the current designers using an approach that honors Klutho's design philosophy?
 

++4

...to help create a master plan for the 27-acre neglected city parks that stretch from Liberty Street to Eighth Street.

Are there any plans in place to ensure that once the money is spent to re-hab the park it isn't neglected again?

QuoteThe original purpose of the Canal.  The Hogans Creek was notorious and dangerous for its natural bed of deadly quick mud.   Many people lost their lives making chance or panicked crossings of the canal.  The conditions that create quick mud didnt just go away.  Also Klutho designed and executed this canal and retention pond as a way of draining the swamp and wetlands that Springfield is built on.

More like "Quick Shit" today.

There is a large patch on the Ortega River land, West of NAS Jax too. Happily it is only about 3 feet deep which made it an excellent play area for young Florida boys in the 50's. Not only deadly, but sometimes really fun! However it does stain your clothes and your mom was likely to cop a bad attitude. The only solution seemed to be bringing home a couple of snakes each day, then she would just leave you alone.  

OCKLAWAHA

I agree. Enough with the passive park space! We need to create better uses especially along and near Main St.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52772

QuoteHogan’s Creek project could be ‘Hold on Creek’
by Mike Sharkey
Staff Writer

In a 2002 Army Corps of Engineers report on the status of Hogan’s Creek and the plan to restore the waterway that bisects Downtown, project manager Steven Robinson concluded the then-$4.9 million was absolutely necessary.

“Without the project, Hogan’s Creek would continue to degrade in environmental quality and contribute to pollution and sediment loadings of the St. Johns River,” he wrote.

Robinson is no longer in the Corps’ Jacksonville District office, but Hogan’s Creek is still polluted and there are still plans to improve the waterway from both an aesthetic and environmental perspective. When those plans go into motion isn’t clear, either.

According to John Pappas, deputy director of Public Works, the State Department of Transportation has set aside $1 million to build a 12-foot wide concrete pathway along a portion of east and north sides of the creek. However, since the 2002 study, new environmental concerns have cropped up, namely an ash remediation effort that hasn’t started and doesn’t have a price tag.

“We are waiting before we can move forward,” said Pappas. “We are waiting to hear from the ash remediation group.”

Dubbed the “Hogan’s Creek Greenway Project,” the $1 million plan involves a walkway, concrete edging and monument of some kind, said Pappas.

According to Tom Heal, an engineer with Public Works, part of the clean up will involve the removal of trash that’s in the creek and on the creek banks. Because the creek flows from Springfield southeast to the St. Johns River, much of that trash gets caught in a net in the water just before the mouth of the creek. The banks of the creek in that area are littered with fast food cups, beer cans, a bicycle rim, police tape and other garbage â€" all evidence of homeless people sleeping under and near the various bridges that cross the creek.

While the creek’s water may appear filthy, Ebenezer Gujjarlapudi, director of the City’s Environmental Compliance Department, said until the water and the sediment are tested, there’s no way to determine exactly what contaminates are in the water and to what levels. He said the Corps and the State Department of Environmental Protection will deal with the creek itself while the City will concentrate on the Greenway project and the area outside of the water’s edge.

“The State has determined that over 85 percent of the contamination is from fecal matter from pets, geese and other animals,” he said. “Most of the contamination is around Confederate Park. We are looking at what’s in the ground.”

What’s near Confederate Park is the Park View Inn, a long vacant hotel at the corner of State Street and Newnan Street. Gujjarlapudi said the Park View is condemned and slated for demolition within the next couple of months. After that, he said, the State DEP will work with the property owner to begin remediation. At that time, he added, the City will be able to better gauge the environmental issues at Confederate Park.

“Once they clear that up, we will put our plan together to clean up our property,” said Gujjarlapudi.

Heal said the project could go to bid, but since only about one-half to two-thirds of it could be placed on a request for proposal due to the ash issues, the project is “in the middle of nowhere” and it wouldn’t make sense to put out an RFP.

Jim Manning, an engineer in the Environmental Compliance Department, said some of the contamination is from an early 1900s gas manufacturing plant that sat where the Park View Inn is today.

“It’s like tar and it’s deep underground,” he said. “It’s not in the creek, but it’s deep underground and it’s sinking.”


msharkey@baileypub.com

Here is the Shands Jacksonville master plan.  Between Shands and the proposed VA Clinic site, this medical campus will run along the west border of the park from 8th to just south of 5th Street.

QuoteGenesis worked with the Facilities Department Manager for Shands of NE Florida to develop a 20-year Vision for the Shands Health Park in Jacksonville, Florida. To develop a program, Genesis held numerous Charette Workshops with multiple stakeholder groups within Shands Management. The master plan included the re-routing of the existing traffic to better orient visitors, within the development and surrounding areas. Internal roads were converted to pedestrian oriented vehicular roadways, with numerous additional pedestrian pathways offering connectivity and open space within the Health Park. A new 500 bed Trauma Center was a major focus for the 20-Year Vision. The master plan included a transect of building uses and height to maintain more dense development internally within the property, and allow for lower 2-and 3-story buildings surrounding the residential development to the East.

http://www.genesisgroup.com/projects/113.php

(http://www.genesisgroup.com/images/print_photos/jax_districtoverlay.jpg)

(http://www.genesisgroup.com/images/print_photos/jax_masterplan.jpg)

Here's the FSCJ Downtown Campus Master Plan:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/FCCJ-Downtown-Campus/FCCJDowntownCampusMasterPlan/464005077_2Sg4r-L.jpg)

The creek can be seen in the northeast corner.

^I pulled them from old MJ threads.  Both have been around for at least three years or so.

If someone brought up this point and I missed it, I am sorry, but is no one else seeing it as a problem that they are taking a brand new 3 acre dog park, that is actually now not only seeing neighborhood folks in Springfield and Downtown using it daily, but also bringing in folks from Arlington, San Marco, and Riverside and condensing it to a small plot on the edge of this plan?

I use this dog park 4-5 day a week, every day I am there and talk to people from all over town who are just now discovering it, and loving it. People through this park see Springfield in a new light, and it is constantly giving me an opportunity to talk up the neighborhood and other assets like Uptown Market, 3 Layers, Walkable nieghborhood, etc...

My point in this large park, nicer than the dog park in Atlanta's Piedmont Park is working to bring people and life into Springfield, if anything it should be expanded not made smaller and relegated to a far corner of this new plan. Any new plan should look at this as something that is working and expand upon that idea as a way to make this park system even more accessible to more people (and dogs).

When we first started going months back, it was few, it seems now as word is getting out every time that we go we are seeing more and more people there. Last time we went (Wednesday) there were at least 15 dogs with their owners there (I know at least two were from Riverside and one from San Marco). On an average evening there will be 5-10 Human/Dog park users, and sometimes more, on a nice weekend day the park is well used most of the day.

The Piedmont Dog Park in Atlanta http://www.piedmontpark.org/do/dogpark.html when I lived there was THE place to go for young professionals with pets after work.

It is really exciting to see the Confederate Dog Park here in Springfield starting to become as popular.

To make it smaller and move it would be a disgrace, if anything it should be expanded and promoted even more heavily. This could be part off the puzzle that finally brings Springfield up to it's potential from it's long standing faded glory.

I would write more, and might later, but as it happens Tommy-Peterson (my Italian greyhound) has a play date with Hanna (the mini-pin) and Sharky (the pug mix) (from Avondale) in just a little white.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 20, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
Here's the FSCJ Downtown Campus Master Plan:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/FCCJ-Downtown-Campus/FCCJDowntownCampusMasterPlan/464005077_2Sg4r-L.jpg)

The creek can be seen in the northeast corner.

Can't see all of the lettering, but is that a "working" transportation building proposed for Pearl St? If so why not the Rosa Parks?

The other one is easier to spot, they want to put a garage so that it will take half of the available Skyway right 0f way! That one without a station is dumb as a bag of glass.  

OCKLAWAHA

while...in just a little while.

Stephen,

Perhaps if you actaully attended any of the various public meetings you could have provided input. Where were you? If you had attended any of them, many of your questions would be answered....not by me, but by the PPS group and the city planners. Since you didn't choose to attend any of them, perhaps you shouldn't be so eager to critisize. Show up next time!

Off the top of my head (from attending the public meetings) here are some answers to your questions and assertions:

1) Van Winkel is on very shakey ground with the city and probably won't get his property back, last I heard. As far as the other private property goes, i'm assuming that the city feels it won't be too much of an issue. If it turns out none of the private propety can used, fine. There are 100 other good visions for the park system. This a rough draft...revisions will inevitabley will be made.

2) You don't have to watch Van Winkels, Hionedes, etc backside for them. They are grown ups. They can speak for themselves.

3) Quick mud? From digesting your quick history of the notorious quick mud epidemic (sarcasm intended), it seems like you are against changing Klutho's orginal design because you are concerned about people dying in the mud. (ha). Ok. Well. Besides that rather outlandish concern, there are other legitimate reasons why one wouldn't want to change Klutho's designs. Quick mud? Not so much. The actual basustrades have nothing to do with quick mud and don't act as a barrier of any kind obviously. The landscape that they lie on might, but not the artifact. Again, plenty of legit reasons why one wouldn't want to move or get rid of the balustrades besides the "Your kids might die!" sensationalism.

4) PPS knows what they are doing. They are a highly successful organization that has transformed urban parks around the world. If you cared to attend any of the meetings (hint hint), you would already know that this is not meant to be a "passive" park system, but an active, destination driven park system. Bike baths, jogging paths, skate park, sports courts, water features, public art, interactive water features & interactive public art, mixed use, bioremediation, Shands & FSCJ usage, public event spaces ARE ALL IN THE PLAN AND HAVE BEEN OPENLY DISCUSSED. If you bothered to attend any of the meetings (broken record, anyone?) you would have known about it and been able to participate.

5) Revisions and research are expected as the process moves forward. A lock/pump system is not out of the question, from what Zoo said earlier. And Zoo would know.



Gideon,

I don't quite understand why they would want to move the dog park either, instead of just incorportating the current one. However, i don't think it would be smaller....just moved 1 block over. While it might not make much sense to me, I don't see the harm in it.



Lake,

I think having them take a look at Shands & FSCJ's "master plans" would be great, if they haven't done so already.

The plan posted clearly showed an area that was only about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of the current dog park . I just think right now it is the only thing really working in that park system (and barring the riverwalk any park in the urban core) I don't see why they would mess with a good thing.

What happened to the concepts from the visioning process that went on with the Army Corps of Engineers about 5 years ago?

If the park were say...a historic house that needed restoration... one would have to repair original components, or replace with like materials not changing the style.  The neighborhood is full of people who have taken this kind of care restoring their homes.

 For the city to suggest taking the most significant historical feature of Springfield and drastically altering the style, is insulting to all of the people who love the historic nature of the community. Not to mention a slap in the face to homeowners who have paid extra for appropriate materials and painstakingly brought components back to life. 

As for not going to public meetings?  Sh*t!  Who would have guessed anyone was seriously suggesting removing the canal from the neighborhood?  

Does SPAR support this plan?

FYI: The creek is still there, along the same path.

Of course there hasn't been a proposal to "move it out of the neighborhood"

Exaggeration = bad.

I certainly don't speak for SPAR, but i'm going to take an educated guess and say they will wait and see what the final plan is before endorsing anything.

Before people get too bent out of shape, things need to be put in their proper place.  Overall, the plan has some good elements (a good mix of passive/active uses, etc.), along with several issues that need to be addressed (ex. historic preservation, connectivity, shifting around existing assets, etc.).

However, its VERY preliminary.  The presentation format easily confirms this.  As the process continues, reality will enter the picture and a more well thought out plan will be produced.

OCKLAWAHA

Here you go Ock...

http://www.youtube.com/v/7xq6U-wbgOQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&hd=1

My God how beautiful, my brother in England would go crazy for this, his vactions are done riding trains to anywhere they take him

that is just so cool, and looks like it's a lot of fun

There is something magic about this machinery, and the children (of all ages) that build and play with them learn skills and craftsmanship of old school excellence. Engineering, design, construction, landscape, metal work, welding, math calculations, and fine woodworking just some of the fields this could open to our citizens. Since it's a International Brotherhood (IBLS) Live Steamers, there is much hands on, sharing, caring, and walking newbies through the ropes. Craftsmen passing skills down to others in a traditional style, slow perfection. Putting this in a city park, as done around the globe, would expose Jacksonville to a world of wonders.

Try these sites, including a couple for your brother in the UK.

http://www.steamdays.co.uk/index.php?page=stock

http://www.railsusa.com/links/Live_Steam_Mini_Rail/more12.html

http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/

http://www.livesteam.net/

http://www.steamingpriest.com/2008/07/26/international-brotherhood-of-live-steamers/  (for the IBLS)

Don't suffer sticker shock, it's not cheap until you learn to build from scratch. Sometimes a rare used piece comes along in a bargin deal. There is also a whole area of toy steam engines either antique or reproduction that knocks the price down to the hundreds. Otherwise better sell the BMW! The hobby is incredible fun and we have at least 60+ guys and gals right here and many more who would join in if exposed to it. Yes, women are LIVE STEAMERS too.

Won't you guys join me in pushing this into a Jacksonville park? We once "almost" had the JLS club in Hanna Park, then the deal was killed in the infamous insurance crisis of the 80's.

OCKLAWAHA  

Quote from: thelakelander on November 20, 2009, 05:09:41 PM
Before people get too bent out of shape, things need to be put in their proper place.  Overall, the plan has some good elements (a good mix of passive/active uses, etc.), along with several issues that need to be addressed (ex. historic preservation, connectivity, shifting around existing assets, etc.).

However, its VERY preliminary.  The presentation format easily confirms this.  As the process continues, reality will enter the picture and a more well thought out plan will be produced.

Exactly!

And as fsu813 stated, the best way to provide input is to ATTEND a public meeting!

PPS has a pretty good track record.  We've featured a couple of projects they have been involved with in the past.  It would be nice if they can play a larger role.

www.pps.org

Even though the plan is preliminary, the vision for the plan ought to be in place.  For example, will the balustrades be removed to have a natural creek? 

The decision to save the canal or return it to a natural creek -- has this been decided?

HDR's project list - http://www.hdrinc.com/13/default.aspx (http://www.hdrinc.com/13/default.aspx)

PPS' current project list - http://www.pps.org/info/services/current_projects/where_pps_working_today_all (http://www.pps.org/info/services/current_projects/where_pps_working_today_all)

Quote from: sheclown on November 21, 2009, 07:46:09 AM
Even though the plan is preliminary, the vision for the plan ought to be in place.  For example, will the balustrades be removed to have a natural creek?

The general vision seems to be to restore the park into a centralized public space that offers a diverse things to do.  From what has been explained here is that the options and components of such a plan can change as more input is given.

QuoteThe decision to save the canal or return it to a natural creek -- has this been decided?

My guess would be if enough of the community demands preservation, the city will come around.  JTA did with the DT BRT plan and the city appears to be doing so with Friendship Fountain.  The key is to participate early in the process of decision making.  So despite what the conceptual sketches may show, don't accept them as being set in stone.

So, now is the time to take on stand on preserving our Klutho Canal and its balustrades.

yes.

Do we know if SPAR is working toward preserving the canal and its balustrades?

QuoteThe scope of the master plan includes determining timing/cost for environmental remediation of soil and water, storm water management (flood control), preservation and restoration of historic assets where possible, and inclusion of beautification components.

Vision? How about that empty space over by Jefferson? How about this?

(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/17316172.jpg)

Don't sweat the small stuff - it's for models, look at the size of the autos. Bet this would bring out every retired,active, or wanna be pilot in Florida. Radio Controlled model flight, too cool... Ok LUNICAN, go find the video of an RC landing!  ;)

(http://site.raidentech.net/zero-12.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

^Ock, send them to Cecil.  If we're talking about the same empty space, that's where to VA Clinic is supposed to go.  However, the plan should include how to intergrate a BRT station and associated retail/dining near the clinic and Shands.  That's something that I would suggest not leaving JTA in charge to decide.

Thank you, Chris, for continuing to be a reasonable voice.

Quote

QuoteThat is not so.  I saw many of the written suggestions taken at the Karpeles incorporated, one of which was the possible removal of the Health Center which was built on park land.  A couple of weeks ago I was invited to walk the creek and parks with Jennifer Holbrooke and Kevin White and talk first hand about what I thought about the area, and water control.  I felt it was an enlightening walk for all of us.  These plans are not cast in concrete (pun intended) and are evolving, also there are many many problems, like the contamination, to overcome.  At least something is moving and attention is once again being drawn to an area, which even today in its shabby dress, is a thing of beauty - "which is a joy for ever".
They are looking at a long hard slog to get anything achieved, it was 3 1/2 years from idea to completion on the fountain, at least they are trying, listening and putting stuff out for all to see. The decision to spend the money was that of the parks and city representative, they thought it worthwile.

Chris,

Is the plan to save the canal and the balustrades?

Another note is that the efforts to save the balustrades actually began way back in 1994 or 1995 when Ed Austin was still mayor and Lisa and Mellissa wrote the grant and got the funds.  While it seems the original funds were used for other worthwhile things, it is odd that we are still talking about whether to save the balustrades or not. It should be a no brainer and we should be talking about how the rest of the park will work with them in place and restored.

I'm for the redevelopment of Hogans Creek as well. This is a process that should have happened years ago.  While there are elements in the conceptuals I don't agree with, I know that what was presented (it looks like a quick sketch on trace paper overlayed over an aerial) was probably thrown together in a hour or two after getting some input from the stakeholders.  Thus some things are completely out of scale and have not been properly addressed.  This is why its important at this stage to provide as much input to the consultants as possible.

In the end, a final plan should be much more detailed.  So my advice (I work in this industry) is to not get so stressed out.  Even when a final is produced, there's a slim chance everything on the plan will be built exactly as shown, anyway.

an example of a preliminary plan
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/716772916_BZGuj-M.jpg)

an example of a more finalized plan
(http://www.tridel.com/hullmarkcentre/images/masterplan_700.jpg)

The Hogans Creek Plan still has a way to go, so now is the time to suggest what should be included or taken out.

Working to save the balustrades and the canals has to be a top priority.  Anything else is just frosting on the cake.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 21, 2009, 08:58:01 AM
^Ock, send them to Cecil.  If we're talking about the same empty space, that's where to VA Clinic is supposed to go.  However, the plan should include how to intergrate a BRT station and associated retail/dining near the clinic and Shands.  That's something that I would suggest not leaving JTA in charge to decide.

Just reminding them of how "in the box" the city is thinking, we could do so much more. BTW, yes BRT and STREETCAR and SKYWAY (at least to the foot of the park and an at grade connection station).  Also that natural creek is going to silt up big time with the grade from 8Th to roughly Orange, the canal would probably be easier to keep swept.

Oh yeah, forgot to tell ya, the twin threads are merged.


OCKLAWAHA

Speaking of mass transit and public spaces, here is a plan for a park in Santa Fe, NM.  It is proposed around the development of a commuter rail station in a former warehouse district.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/transit/albuquerque_rail/nm_santafe_06map_lg.jpg)

QuoteSANTA FE RAILYARD PARK

Santa Fe, New Mexico
2008

Invited National Competition Winner|
2009 AIA New York/BSA Urban Design Honor Award

(http://www.schwartzarch.com/images/projects/santa_fe_railyard_01.jpg)

The Railyard Park, a great initiative of the Trust for Public Land, will activate the last remaining large-scale (13 acre) parcel of public land in downtown Santa Fe. The design, which includes a new public plaza, alameda and expansive park will knit together a loose group of cultural and commercial facilities to form a cohesive local cultural precinct. The Park will connect neighborhoods, previously separated by the light industrial site, and provide a safe, attractive pedestrian link to downtown Santa Fe.

Water plays a major role in the park design, both visually and functionally. The harvesting, storage and distribution of water allow the park to flourish in this drought stricken region, providing an oasis that will bring the local community together. Each element of this process, based on techniques used in New Mexico over the last four hundred years, has become a feature of the park design.

A historically inspired blue water tank provides a focal point for the new Plaza, providing a collection point for water gathered from surrounding roofs, and celebrating the use of contemporary sustainable design. An adjacent water sculpture, consisting of a drip fountain and shallow runnels represents a microcosm of the water systems of the Park. Blue water storage rail cars, drawing on the railyard nature of the site, store water for distribution via runnels located throughout the Park.

A line of telegraph-style light poles capped with solar powered blue railway lights run the length of the site, demarcating the main circulation path, and forming the spine of the Railyard Park. This linear connection is reinforced by the long solar-paneled shade structure of the Alameda that will serve as a shelter for varied activities including a local farmers market. A series of programmed railway box cars, will provide sites for events.

http://www.schwartzarch.com/projects/santa_fe_railyard.html

Two projects with big-picture similarities also worth looking at:

Indianapolis Canal Walk
http://www.indycanalwalk.org/gallery.aspx (http://www.indycanalwalk.org/gallery.aspx)

Buffalo Bayou (Houston)
http://www.asla.org/2009awards/104.html (http://www.asla.org/2009awards/104.html)

(** not posted as examples of design elements or themes -- it seems clear from conceptual sketches the project is not yet at the design stage)

The grant that Melissa and Lisa wrote was to repair the balustrades in Confederate and to put them around the lake.   There was much more in that grant request.They were not involved in the club when those funds came through, and the contamination problem had arisen.  It took two geologists to convince the park that we could even turn over the soil to put in the rose arbor.  That far away from the creek and where the old gasification plant once stood. The park has many problems.  When the dog park issue arose we tried to put it on the lovely strip of land between the creek  and Orange but again "soil no touch"
The health building situation was in my written proposal at the residents meeting at the Karpeles,  I am saddened by the fact that in the early nineteeen hundreds we had 42 acres of park and it has been snitched and snitched until we are down to 25.  That parking lot opposite where the Dozier apartments were is an absolute travesty,  it is projects like this that have put the flood water at the heights it now achieves. Also in about 2002 the Army Corps said it would take 8 million to dredge (hate that word the creek would have to be vacuumed so as not to break the sills) the creek, but was held up by pollution - there used to be a insecticide or or such factory up stream - this i am not sure of, but it was supposed to be polluted.  There there was a round table meeting in which the lady came from the Corps and said she had good news and bad news, the creek was not that polluted as to prevent dredging but the bad news was that the funds had been frozen in the credit pinch.  If the Corps are back in the picture maybe that money will come back
Please do not quote the ISTEA grants unless you know specifically what was written in them, it only adds to the mire.  The thing that bothers me, and I have to dig it out,  Sandra Darling when our councillor got something like a $5 million allotment, through the council, for McCoys and Hogans Creek, I do not know where this money went.  I gave a copy of the article to Mack, I will ask if he still has it. Those are two very large sums of money which were meant for our creek and parks.

Quote from: sheclown on November 21, 2009, 07:46:09 AM
Even though the plan is preliminary, the vision for the plan ought to be in place.  For example, will the balustrades be removed to have a natural creek?  

The decision to save the canal or return it to a natural creek -- has this been decided?

From what I understood, there will be parts that are retruned to a more natural state (ie, bioremediation, natural buffer zone for flooding) and parts that are not. The ballustrades would be moved further out in places to accomdate the new design. Again, from what I understood.

Quote from: sheclown on November 21, 2009, 08:49:20 AM
Do we know if SPAR is working toward preserving the canal and its balustrades?

I do not know. I would assume they want to preserve as much historical elements as possible. You could call and ask them.

Quote from: stephendare on November 21, 2009, 08:54:43 AM
SheClown.

Zoo and FSU813 are advocates of the plan, so its safe to say that SPAR is for destroying the balustrades. After all, they are historic.

Chris Farley is the one making the most sense on the entire issue, and has presented cogent, logical points about the actual issues, and is being roundly ignored by the little coterie of omniscient ophidians---or worse: patiently explained to.

Obviously SHARP is for saving them.

But really, I think the whole plan needs scrapped.  The negatives so outweigh the positives.

Whats so funny is that the input of this group was sought and given prior to all the meetings and was online and available throughout.

Both the Shands and the FCCJ master plans were also available and online throughout and were disregarded completely.

The environmental information, obviously available and presented in person by Chris Farley, was disregarded.

Who was involved in this process?  proton experts and lawn maintenance people?

- Remember the part, a page or 2 back, when I informed you that many of your concerns had already been brought up and addressed in the various public meetings that you chose not to attend?

How someone can demosntrate that they have almost no clue about the project, but then find different ways to bash it repeatedly is quite puzzling. Wait, no it's not. SPAR had a role in making it happen, so you don't like it. You have literally no idea what information was looked at and disregarded, and what was not. Where i'm from, this is called talking out of your _ _ _.

- Ms. Farley can spot a sweet talker when she sees one. Her reputation and credibility won't rub off on you, no matter how hard you try to align yourself with her.

- Since you brought it up: Can you tell us a little more about this SHARP group that you founded? The last SHARP thread was deleted when various people became critical of thier (your) inappropriate email responses to them and posted them. Suddenly *poof*, gone.

- i support saving and restoring the orginal ballustrades as well, fyi. There's a way to go about it. Making wild guesses, incorrect assumptions, and promoting false information are not the best way to support saving the original ballustrades. Showing up the the various meetings , in person, is much more effective. See you at the next one?

Corrections & observation:

- Perhaps you should start a thread to list all the various "lies" i've told. You have my permission. I'm obviously pathological.

- Of course I didn't pass judgement on Ms. Farley?

- I speak before I know what i'm talking about? (ha) That's rich. When I am wrong about something I readily admit it. (ie, the lock system possibility). You, on the other hand, produce long-winded rants about how awful the rough draft, making all kinds of illinformed assumptions, without attending 1 meeting. Heck, I corrected half of your assertions a couple pages back already, which you've yet to acknowledge.

- I'm ok with you personally attacking me. It's so ridiculous i'm interested in what you'll come up with next.

Back to the subject....

When is the next meeting about this?

Since it was mentioned, what's really up with Van Winkel anyway? That eyesore is clearly included in this plan, but it seems nobody has actually gotten his consent? Geez..

So people honestly believe he's just going to let COJ take it from him without so much as talking to a lawyer? I'm not trying to start WWIII here, but I think Stephen's got a point. That just seems unlikely to say the least. COJ may be able to get away with the demolition, citing safety reasons, but that's just the beginning since the property itself clearly has some commercial value aside from the structure.

Van Winckel will probably get a building inspector who disagrees with COJ's building inspector regarding the necessity of the demo, and they'll each hire appraisers who disagree with each other on the land's value, and they'll each hire environmental engineers who disagree with each other, etc., etc. These things drag on forever, they'll probably be fighting over it for ages. In the end COJ may wind up having to pay him at least something for his land, which may be worth more than it cost to demo the building, or at least that's what Van Winckel will argue.

And Hionides is another one. If COJ wants that, they're probably going to have to pay for it. I would hope that before anyone spends any more time and money making plans that involve privately owned properties, COJ reaches some agreement with the owners.

But even so, I believe the Park View is the only real eyesore. The other buildings are historic themselves, and would make great lofts or offices. Why destroy even more density? I don't get it. Shouldn't those be excluded?

Taking the gates down would help.  However, that appears to have been included in the concepts so far, so that's a good thing.

fsu813, since you attended the public meeting, any idea of what has been proposed between Laura and Main or Boulevard and Pearl?

"Is it your contention that Mr. Van Winkel has lost the property to the City?  You said he probably won't be getting it back.  Care to elaborate on this theory of yours?"

- No, it's my contention that the chances of him losing it are greater than him keeping it. Hence, "probably". No, I don't care to elaborate on who discussed this with me. His situation is not a secret though.

"What is the basis of you making the claim that Mr. Van Winkel is 'on shakey ground with the city"?  First of all, what the hell does that mean?  Are you making potentially libelous statemtents against Van Winkel?"

- The basis is hearing it form somebody that is familar with the situation. It means that he has a history of issues with this property and the city and it's touch and go whether he will end up retaining it in the end. You throw the labels of "libel" and "liar" around a lot, i've noticed.

"You claim to have an assumption that the city doesnt consider taking the rest of the private property a big deal.  What is the basis of that assumption?  Were you told that?  Will the city be simply 'taking the property"?  Are the owners indicating that they are going to give the property to them?  Were you told that there is a budget to handle acquisition of private property?"

- I didn't use the words "big deal". Taking an educated guess, PPS and the park planners were given boundaries on what areas may be used for the park system. If these various private properties were off-limits or had little chance of being converted, then they wouldn't be even be considered. Just a guess.




Lake,

I'm not sure what areas you are referring to. Could you give cross streets? I don't have any special insight to this plan, just info from attended the various meetings.

5 and 3 on this aerial:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2592-hogans-creek-parks-aerial.jpg)

Here is what they look like today:

No. 5
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568922956_nx7eR-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568921762_akUqD-M.jpg)

No. 3
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568919138_ctrLv-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568918766_CNiNS-M.jpg)

No. 5 area will have pond returned (with preserved balustrade), as water storage is a key functional requirement for the system. Various associated recreational and beautification ideas are being considered, but will not be firmed up/designed until the design phase of the project.

No. 3 area... geez, just looking at that photo of what JEA has done with the multiple sets of pipes crossing over the Creek and through the balustrade makes me nauseous. JEA had multiple representatives at the stakeholder meetings, they toured one of the activity groups through the block, and they seemed open to some of the planning team's suggestions.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 21, 2009, 03:58:18 PM
"Is it your contention that Mr. Van Winkel has lost the property to the City?  You said he probably won't be getting it back.  Care to elaborate on this theory of yours?"

- No, it's my contention that the chances of him losing it are greater than him keeping it. Hence, "probably". No, I don't care to elaborate on who discussed this with me. His situation is not a secret though.

"What is the basis of you making the claim that Mr. Van Winkel is 'on shakey ground with the city"?  First of all, what the hell does that mean?  Are you making potentially libelous statemtents against Van Winkel?"

- The basis is hearing it form somebody that is familar with the situation. It means that he has a history of issues with this property and the city and it's touch and go whether he will end up retaining it in the end. You throw the labels of "libel" and "liar" around a lot, i've noticed.

"You claim to have an assumption that the city doesnt consider taking the rest of the private property a big deal.  What is the basis of that assumption?  Were you told that?  Will the city be simply 'taking the property"?  Are the owners indicating that they are going to give the property to them?  Were you told that there is a budget to handle acquisition of private property?"

- I didn't use the words "big deal". Taking an educated guess, PPS and the park planners were given boundaries on what areas may be used for the park system. If these various private properties were off-limits or had little chance of being converted, then they wouldn't be even be considered. Just a guess.

The answer to the Van Winkel situation is a short one.  The consultants are under contract with COJ.  Since when has COJ ever worried about private property in developing master plans? 

Need a history lesson?

Exhibit 1

Peyton's Big Idea
(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/020406/115724_300.jpg) (http://www.jacksonville.com/images/020406/115764_300.jpg)

1. A "maritime park" where Hyatt currently stands
2. A "harbor town" where River City Brewing is, despite them having a 99-year lease on site.
3. A demolished and rebuilt Landing, despite Sleiman owning the structure.
4. Taking a lane off the Main Street bridge, even though its not a local road.

Exhibit 2

Main Street Pocket Park
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2608-p1040926.JPG)

Only the founding members of MJ remember this one.  Anyway Paul Crawford and Jack Diamond came to a MJ meeting before breaking ground on the Main Street pocket park.  They tried to convince us of a plan that called for the Main Street pocket park taking up the entire block (half the block is owned by Salvation Army), a hotel going on a privately owned parking lot across the street and a land swap with the Cathedral.

In short, if COJ is paying the consultants, most of the stuff on the plans probably come from the directions of COJ, not fsu813, SPAR or any other small player in Springfield or the blogging world.

i'm exceptionally small =)

QuoteIn short, if COJ is paying the consultants, most of the stuff on the plans probably come from the directions of COJ, not fsu813, SPAR or any other small player in Springfield or the blogging world.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. 

Springfield has a long history of fighting the city regarding preservation issues.  This is not new terrority for the community or its residents who have literally stood in front of bulldozers aimed at homes.  Just because COJ wants to do something, doesn't mean that we need to stand by and watch it be done, helplessly.

Sounds like a bit of seduction here.  Let us have your historic canal and we'll give you a kid's park.

And...how many times has the city, or private developers for that matter, said that they are going to tear something down and replace it with BLING... only to have a slab scab left?

Quote from: stephendare on November 21, 2009, 02:11:22 PM
They are kindof massive neighbors of the park.  Not building these huge groups of people into planned use of the park would seem short sighted to say the least.

do you know that HDR/PPS didn't involve Shands or FSCJ in the process?

I find it hard to believe that they weren't interviewed and/or made aware of the public meeting.

BTW....a master plan isn't set in stone...having worked on several institutional master plans, I can assure you that they can change drastically over time....and like other big-picture plans in Florida, they get updated every 5-10 years.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 22, 2009, 09:11:56 AM

Quote from: stephendare on November 21, 2009, 02:11:22 PM
They are kindof massive neighbors of the park.  Not building these huge groups of people into planned use of the park would seem short sighted to say the least.

do you know that HDR/PPS didn't involve Shands or FSCJ in the process?

I find it hard to believe that they weren't interviewed and/or made aware of the public meeting.

BTW....a master plan isn't set in stone...having worked on several institutional master plans, I can assure you that they can change drastically over time....and like other big-picture plans in Florida, they get updated every 5-10 years.

You do have to start somewhere.

I believe Daryl Joseph wrote a grant for $300,000 to pay for the kids park which goes in with the dog park,  he did this when it was being decided what to do  with the IsTEA which had lain for about many years.

So a kid's playground is proposed for the dog park?  When is it expected to be installed?

"do you know that HDR/PPS didn't involve Shands or FSCJ in the process?

I find it hard to believe that they weren't interviewed and/or made aware of the public meeting."



- They were notifed and invited. I know this for a fact. I believe representatives from both attended....but I can't be sure.

There always has been a kids playground in that park.  I believe it is to be moved to the other side and enlarged

Quote from: chris farley on November 22, 2009, 02:03:03 PM
There always has been a kids playground in that park.  I believe it is to be moved to the other side and enlarged

Isn't it one filled with old equipment?  Is it safe to assume that the old stuff will be replaced with a new tot lot when the move takes place?

The old equipment was removed (it was just a swingset when the dog park was started, and that is now where the small dog area is).

There is a CBD grant that the city applied for that is paying for a playset to go into the area next to the basketball courts. This is something that I personally pushed very hard for. My thought on it was that a nice fenced in play area next to the dog park makes it a true family park. The kids can play on the playground, or play basketball while the 4 legged family members get to play in the dog park.

The activity that has been spurred by the dog park will become greater once there is a playground, and I believe that this equipment will be better taken care of than the equipment that was installed at Liberty and Oakland parks 3 or 4 years ago.

Clustering the dog park, playground, and basketball court is great, i agree.

Now if we could just get an official passage to & from Confedrate Park to the Dog Park I think it would be complete (ie, prominent gates on the Westside of the dog park & Eastside of Confederate Park, with a nice cross walk in-between, connecting the two by eye & path. The PPS guy thought this was a no brainer too....).

It is my understanding that the small dog park will be where the old swings were and the new playground,  I think they intend to spend 300,000,  will be where the engineers used to park

Let me see if I have this correctly................several Master Plans by different organizations have already been proposed or generated? Now we have a new Master Plan generated another group and this is the one? About the only thing I see that has been constant is the COJ involvement which makes me wonder just who made what and when the made it! By this I am referring to who was paid and what were they paid. To this point, the only thing that has taken place is more consulting, who I would assume did not do the "Consulting" for free! The timing of this transformation strikes me as somewhat odd also, since the Laura Street enhancements for a measly $2 Million Dollars is about to take place. That makes me wonder if the same investor group has a finger in this pie also! Supposedly COJ is in dire financial straits according to our esteemed Mayor but we have money for unneeded street improvements and consultants and special advisory groups and the money keeps flowing out of City Hall! If they had to pay for all of this out of their pockets, they might have a different tune but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I am for refurbishment of Hogans Creek, saving what Klutho did and organizing that area into something that all can enjoy......but I would like to be able to pay for it! By the way, I hate Eminent Domain to be used for anything.........can't pay market value you don't need it!

the city won't be paying for Hogans Creek improvments alone. big chuncks of money will be coming from elsewhere.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 23, 2009, 07:05:40 AM
the city won't be paying for Hogans Creek improvments alone. big chuncks of money will be coming from elsewhere.

who's footing the bill?

Probably a mix of federal and private dollars.

Quote from: CS Foltz on November 23, 2009, 06:23:21 AM
By the way, I hate Eminent Domain to be used for anything.........can't pay market value you don't need it!

Eminent Domain requires the government entity "condemning" the property to pay fair market value...part of the reason road projects take so long is that they often involve court/arbitration and usually the property owner makes out quite well.

missed this article last week:


This is a city of great potential.

It's high time to begin turning that potential into reality instead of pretty dream pictures tucked away in binders and stored on dusty shelves.

A good place to begin is Hogans Creek downtown.

Thankfully, a group of people, including City Councilman Johnny Gaffney, who represents the area, and members of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council, are doing just that.

There are 27 acres of park land surrounding the creek.

With much of the park designed in the 1920s by Henry Klutho, it once was a jewel for downtown. It has now fallen into disrepair.

Other cities would love to have such an asset downtown. We've let it sit in a shabby state for too long.

Jennifer Holbrook, a SPAR board member, talks excitedly about the possibilities for the park.

A master plan is being developed and should be completed next month. Design work could then begin.

There are hurdles to overcome.

Water and soil contamination must be cleaned up. That's a must anyway, because doing so would not only improve the creek but also the health of the St. Johns River.

Storm water issues must be dealt with and the historic assets of the park should be preserved as much as possible.

All of that can be done.

Now add new water features. Create a place for canoes and kayaks, maybe even gondolas. Add landscaping and sports amenities.

In other words, develop a park that would be a regional attraction, not just something for downtown and Springfield.

"It's an amazing opportunity to do it right for a change," Holbrook told me earlier this week.

She's right.

As always, finding the funding won't be easy, especially in these tough economic times.

But federal and state grant money should be available. Private dollars could be raised. And, like Houston is doing with its Buffalo Bayou park project, perhaps bonds financed by increased property taxes from new development the park would attract could also be used.

In fact, the Buffalo Bayou project would be a good one to learn from. Leaders there recognize that a park of this nature is as much about economic development as it is recreation.

Taking advantage of Hogans Creek and the park land there has long been a part of the "emerald necklace" concept included in the city's Downtown Master Plan.

It will take leadership and a long-term commitment, from the City Council, the Mayor's Office and those involved in the project, to go from concept to reality.

Hopefully, the pieces to accomplish that are falling into place.

As a native of San Antonio, I know what can be done with imagination and determination.

San Antonio took what was basically a ditch filled with water and turned it into an attraction that is now known throughout the world.

Hogans Creek can shine, as well.

As can the city's other areas of great potential, from the downtown riverwalks, Metropolitan Park, the Shipyards property to the JEA property on the Southbank, just to name a few.

It just takes leadership and commitment.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/ron_littlepage/2009-12-04/story/transform_hogans_creek_into_major_downtown_asset


(it's also referneced in the SPAR weekly newsletter)

The "Best" places were developed long ago.

That is why riverfront Downtown has been around for so long.

Let the flood of development and "beltway" spread out on in to infinity................the rest of us will turn happily 'inward' with the likes of Hogans Creek.

Quote from: fsu813 on December 10, 2009, 01:08:47 PM

San Antonio took what was basically a ditch filled with water and turned it into an attraction that is now known throughout the world.

Hogans Creek can shine, as well.

Maybe so, but they'll have to do something about the sludge muffins and smell first.

OCKLAWAHA

Is the "Master Plan" set on removing the balustrades? 

We also need to knock a huge hole in the JEA water plant, to join the park segments, the "Homeland Security" excuse for the GREAT WALL OF JEA, is tired. Certainly all of the danger can be contained in a much smaller fenced area, with people actually able to walk up and touch the historic building.

OCKLAWAHA

"Is the Master Plan set on removing the balustrades? "

- nope.

Stephen - Since downtown only has Met Park, and none other, perhaps the TU will mention it as part of the solution, or more likely, probably not. Met park is getting upgrades, as I walked by it on Jags Sunday. Looks like the boat slips got new power and the walkways were getting new signs and benches.

Citizens deserve both, where can you play sports downtown outside, except at the baseball or football stadiums? Our solution should be Hogan's Creek and the open space surrounding it.

Last week Jennifer, Kevin White, Craig Pedroni (of Pedroni's Cast Stone) and I walked the creek.  Craig Pedroni is an expert and has worked on Riverside Park restoring balustrades.  One problem they have is that when they put them in, the rebar was carbon steel, which is rusting and as it rusts it expends and causes cracks in the balustrade.
What was most revealing was that the tide was out and water was pouring out of Confederate Park through the huge pipe that connects the lake with the creek.  This caused the creek to flow to the river and from the original little bridge the creek looked amazingly clean and was moving.  Whereas, when we got to the Pearl Street Bridge the swamp and garbage like water was awful.  It is a shame we cannot ask all the fire departments if they would give us a onetime rush of water from 8th Street, pump water like crazy into the creek and let the whole thing flow at least for a couple of hours.  Don't think the river people would like this but it certainly would help us.

That'll just run all the garbage down into the St. Johns river, to wash right up in other places. Yeah, I guess you could flush out the creek, but that's only moving the problem from one place to another so a true cleanup and off-site disposal would really be what's needed. I wonder if Riverkeeper wouldn't be interested in getting something going on this? It is a St. Johns tributary, after all...

How bad is it anyway? I haven't seen that area of the creek in many years.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 15, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
How bad is it anyway? I haven't seen that area of the creek in many years.

take a look at the photos in the MetroJax's story Chelleby's Angels, the second pick shows Hogans Creek, its pretty bad!

Quote from: stephendare on December 15, 2009, 02:10:52 PM
Is it something that could be handled with a net at the opening?  something to catch all of the trash?

That's a pretty good idea...

I bet on a day to day basis a lot of garbage flows out of that creek into the St. Johns. The homeless use it like a trashcan, plus drainage no doubt carries tons of garbage into it. Some kind of grate at the end of it would probably be helpful as a solution to an ongoing problem. Even after you flushed it.

Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on December 15, 2009, 02:12:59 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 15, 2009, 02:10:04 PM
How bad is it anyway? I haven't seen that area of the creek in many years.

take a look at the photos in the MetroJax's story Chelleby's Angels, the second pick shows Hogans Creek, its pretty bad!

Just looked at it. Wow, that's disgusting. Had no idea it was so bad.

Basically a giant trash can with some water in it...

It could be caught with those oil booms, I think that is what they call them.  They put them on the ocean like giant snakes when there is an oil spill.  A one time flush would really help , some places on the creek look like the top of a giant cesspool. Actually I do not believe too much solid stuff goes into the river now but, the contamination and pollution certainly does, when there is a flood the water still does not move fast enough from the up creek to take junk away it just settles once again.

I understand there are a lot of problems facing the creek, but is there anything a group of people could do to help clean it? Would a trash pick up or something on those lines do any real good, or do other measures need to be taken before something like that is actually worth while?

Quote from: chris farley on December 15, 2009, 03:52:07 PM
It could be caught with those oil booms, I think that is what they call them.  They put them on the ocean like giant snakes when there is an oil spill.  A one time flush would really help , some places on the creek look like the top of a giant cesspool. Actually I do not believe too much solid stuff goes into the river now but, the contamination and pollution certainly does, when there is a flood the water still does not move fast enough from the up creek to take junk away it just settles once again.

The fairly recent joint City/Fed Corp of Engineers proposal was a comprehensive "restoration" scheme.Dropped due to funding snag.Fishweir Creek proposal seems to be drowning too 10 Duval waterways identified for needed joint City/Fed restoration.

Interesting how this epic story goes untold...

Sometimes this city reminds me of a petulant, spoiled child that plays with a toy without taking care of it them tosses it aside when it is broken and goes on to another one.  (Metropolitan Park?)

Just looking through old treads and came across this.  I have never seen this concept before.  Has there been any recent developments on this park proposal? 

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 12, 2011, 10:52:49 AM
Just looking through old treads and came across this.  I have never seen this concept before.  Has there been any recent developments on this park proposal? 

There is no funding for implementation of the master plan, although there are limited funds available for construction of a trail through the Hogan's Creek parks.

Construction of the Confederate Park Playground should begin soon - a contractor has been selected.  I have heard an estimated completion date of September but imagine that November or December is more likely.  The playground will be where the small dog park is now, with the small dog park moving to the area used by the City surveyor's office for parking.

thanks that is great! 

Public Works. Storm water management.Annual fee.Millions.Duval County Tributary monitor program-Hogan Creek investments,improvements.Dana Morton.
Perhaps even FIND.

The waterways are a Downtown imperative,an element of awareness and empowerment.Downtown waterways are joined at the hip with "River" advocacy.A test of responsibility.

The waterways are reflective of malaise.Perfectly situated.

The proposed master plan is a vision plan - it is not based on reality and includes elements that will never be implemented.  There are many things to like about the plan but there are also items that should be eliminated or revised.

Cleaning up Hogan's Creek should be priority one.  Don't know how well used a trail running next to a ditch full of styrofoam cups, shopping carts and human waste will be.  Any clean up must also include a plan for keeping the trash out in the future.

Wish I had better ideas for coming up with the millions of dollars that project will cost! 

It could be done very similar to Birmingham's Railroad Park in which it was a non-profit group that led the funding effort and oversaw the construction.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-birminghams-railroad-park (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-birminghams-railroad-park)

QuoteThe project is touted as a success in Public/Private Partnering, something we hear repeatedly as a solution to issues in Jacksonville (how many times was it said in the debates?).  Out of a total cost of $25 million, $12.5 million was committed by the city of Birmingham.  The remaining funds were obtained by the Friends of Railroad District.  The Community Foundation of Greater Birmingham, lead by Kate Nielson, joined in the effort with a fundraising campaign known as the Three Parks Initiative.  In addition to Railroad Park, the city was also working to create Red Mountain Park and Ruffner Mountain Park.  By early 2008 they raised $15 million with $8.7 million going to Railroad Park.

The non-profit got the ball rolling and the city kicked in once they saw how committed the public was to the project.  If we truly want something to happen at Hogans Creek it will take a dedicated group to bring it to the forefront.

Regardless of overlay plans,the immediate waterway is important as an established stand alone item.

In fact Hogan's Creek has seen some water quality improvement thanks to the larely unheralded City of Jacksonville Tributary Assesement program.

The pulses of trash out to the River a common feature.

Square away these once obscure waterways or skip River Advocacy.

I would think too that viable comprehensive Downtown advocacy,care and concern would naturally embrace these signature waterways.

Who knows,perhaps ignoring the waterways simply part larger Downtown malaise.

By the way, I have not yet explored Hogan's Creek.
I almost dread it- my own backyard,the Southwesterly boundary of RAP,Big Fishweir Creek is reeling from it's own nasty impacts,restoration ever so slowly lurching forward.

Good to know others have their paddle in the water so to speak- incomming District 14 Councilman Jim Love made a point to tour Hogans via kayak during the campaign.

Onward!

Unfortunately after all these years instead of mixed use and nice pedestrian areas, all they have managed to produce is a McDonalds and a Dollar Store right across the street from the beautiful old armory building and right on the creek.  Not really the best choice in my mind.  At least there is some hope for the remaining properties along Hogans Creek.  Jacksonville continues to prevent good future uses of space downtown by not thinking long term and putting things that have no value on potentially great real estate like a Dollar Store or McDonalds with large parking lots . . . . also see Jail and Police Station on East Bay Street, see hideous 60's style government buildings on the North Bank, see Duval County School building on South Bank, see old courthouse parking lot on north bank, Commodore Pt Expressway over Hogan's Creek and east Cathedral District, the list goes on. 

Master Plan? What happened to the kayak launch at the end of Catherine St. on Hogans Creek? Who was there beside the Arlington Jaycees and Vivian Harrell with KJB on a Sunday to Make this happen? Where is the NICE Committee on this? Was there yesterday.

Quote from: stephendare on January 22, 2016, 01:54:22 PM
Exactly noone

When the tides are right. How would you like to do a Downtown District RICO loop in some of the most restricted Waterways in the country? Seriously.

Quote from: CCMjax on January 22, 2016, 08:32:09 AM
Unfortunately after all these years instead of mixed use and nice pedestrian areas, all they have managed to produce is a McDonalds and a Dollar Store right across the street from the beautiful old armory building and right on the creek.  Not really the best choice in my mind.  At least there is some hope for the remaining properties along Hogans Creek.  Jacksonville continues to prevent good future uses of space downtown by not thinking long term and putting things that have no value on potentially great real estate like a Dollar Store or McDonalds with large parking lots . . . . also see Jail and Police Station on East Bay Street, see hideous 60's style government buildings on the North Bank, see Duval County School building on South Bank, see old courthouse parking lot on north bank, Commodore Pt Expressway over Hogan's Creek and east Cathedral District, the list goes on.

Long term?  You think there is/was much demand for any of the locations you just cited?